Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing

[adrjork]

Hi everybody,

I think to base my work mainly on 4K 10bit 422 Prores footage and I need a workstation to make mainly composing (After Effects) and grading.

Which are the min. requirements for a mac-workstation? Do I need a super-MacPro, or is it possible to do the job with a newer iMac 27?

Thx a lot for your help

[D Fuller]

It is absolutely possible to do this work on a late-model iMac. But if you're using After Effects for 4K, put as much RAM in it as will fit.

[fredjeang2]

Lots of RAM and storage. IMO.
Compositing in a video codec ain't the plan, really.
You'd need idealy to use open EXR wich basically
Requires storage.
In a way or another it's always good to be equiped
To handle image sequences, so storage, storage and more
Storage + acceleration cards if you can put money on them.
Best luck.

[adrjork]

Thanks for your replies.

RAM and storage...
For storage, I'd think 64TB G-Speed Studio XL (a damn lot of money for a freelance!), and for RAM the iMac27 can handle up to only 32TB.
Could be sufficient?
But I remain a bit worried about the software requirements for the codec (my camera will produce 4K 10bit 422 Prores).
I'll use mainly 3 softwares: After Effects, Cinema 4D and Davinci Resolve.
Resolve pdf guide says Mac Pro for 4K workflow (ok, but perhaps they refers to 4K CinemaDNG...) and says iMac27 for HD...
For the other two softwares I don't know the requirements for the specific 4K workflow. And I don't know if i7 is good enough for rendering.

So, are you sure that iMac27 can do the job, or is it barely-barely sufficient?

Thx a lot.

[fredjeang2]

Thanks for your replies.

RAM and storage...
For storage, I'd think 64TB G-Speed Studio XL (a damn lot of money for a freelance!), and for RAM the iMac27 can handle up to only 32TB.
Could be sufficient?
But I remain a bit worried about the software requirements for the codec (my camera will produce 4K 10bit 422 Prores).
I'll use mainly 3 softwares: After Effects, Cinema 4D and Davinci Resolve.
Resolve pdf guide says Mac Pro for 4K workflow (ok, but perhaps they refers to 4K CinemaDNG...) and says iMac27 for HD...
For the other two softwares I don't know the requirements for the specific 4K workflow. And I don't know if i7 is good enough for rendering.

So, are you sure that iMac27 can do the job, or is it barely-barely sufficient?

Thx a lot.

From my personal experience, only the editing task on 4k even Prores 422 is not really happening in real time unless you have big muscles Workstation.
(but you can always edit in proxy mode)
The compositing rendering can be quite slow if lots of nodes-layers involved, so as the grading requires power as always did.
The fact is that you can probably do everything on a limited Workstation but "the hard way", maybe freezes, very slow convertions etc...

This fashion of 4k and above that proliferates now in motion as we had the pixel race in still, hides the fact of the requirements needed to work properly
and demands way more power and monetary investment than in still photography.
Many dudes who were seeing Raw as the supreme goal have steped back after the disastrous experience of the requirements needed.
I know quite a few like that who now work in 2K or HD most of the time. In other words: it's demanding yes. I don't know about the current Mac
to be more precise with specs but yes, more or less, beleive what the software requirements say. 4K Dng ain't slower than 4K prores 444.

To some extend, using a metaphor, it reminds a bit the stories of new so called rich bying their first Ferrari. They can afford it certainly, but when it comes to maintain them...
it's another story. So when they are fed-up to have to pay 9000 euros for a yes or a no, they sell them and buy a BMW.
4k is only, IMO, if you really need it professionaly. Even if you are an indy film maker and want to show in festivals, 2k and even HD are allowed and even in the pro sphere,
not all theaters are 4k capable yet and broadcast is HD. So the question is: do you really need it? I mean really really
but if it's just to enjoy yourself in YouTube seeing how crisp and surgical are the skin tones of the girlfriend in YouTube, my advice would be to wisely save the money and buy yourself
a trip to Italy or a new Wheel.

Maybe the Cooter needs 4k because of the client's mental sikness and it's about business. 4K and above are mainly used to reframe and have more flexibility in post for composition.
But I'm sure if Coot could work in Prores HD all the time he would do it.

[adrjork]

I understand...
The fact is that almost any camera on the market does 4K! Nay, is optimized for 4K! GH4, for example, is almost moire-free in 4K while doesn't work as well in HD.
But not any computer can handle 4K workflow! Only rare machines!
So you have to shoot in 4K and then scale to HD (archiving HD footage only to save space on the external raid!) that is quite... frustrating!
Perhaps I should change my workflow and work with HD only...

If I'd change my mind and work on HD, my workflow could be - just for example:
GH4 to
Atomos Assassins 4K 10bit prores (to take advantage of 10bit HDMI) to
Downscale footage into HD 10bit prores to
External archive, ready to be graded or composed etc.
Do you think it's a good solution for a student/indie?

And... since we have touched the topic "camera"... are you so kind to give me an answer about another doubt?
Prefacing that my shots will be exclusively in natural (LOW)light, which camera you'd prefer to use between:
1. GH4 (10bit Prores with External recorder) + new V-Log L profile + Speed Booster + EF f/1.4 lens
2. GH4 (10bit Prores with External recorder) + new V-Log L profile + mft Nocticron f/1.2 lens
3. A7R II (8bit XAVC internal) + Speed Booster + EF f/1.4 lens
Sorry if it's out of the topic, but I really need an advice guys

Thx a lot

[D Fuller]

My advice is to get some lights. But if you insist on the path you describe, then I'd say the GH4 would win by a nose. The bit depth will help you, as will recording ProRes. And it'll probably have less (fewer?) rolling shutter artifacts.
Get the speedbooster. You can use it on a lot of lenses. It'll kill the sharpness of the lenses, but if you're going to down sample to HD, you'll get most of that back in the process. Add a little sharpening as you downscale and you'll more than get it back.


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[fredjeang2]

Yes, get lights.

IMO, I find the GH4 footage too Sharp too many times.
But it depends...for architecture, aerials, landcsapes etc...it can be very interesting to get this sort of "surgical" look.
But if for feature film, unless you can set the sharpening to zero, I don't see it. But that's very personal.

What about this to consider too?: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/es/products/blackmagicmicrocinemacamera
And the video assist investment can be used on others devices later on.

a note: the BMPCC upscaled stands very very well for ex.

The problema we have, and you'll see...it's just the beginning, is that camera manufacturers need to sale and for that they need to create mental needs
every 2 or 3 years, because 4K ain't the end...no. 6k, 8k on the way...
So they will sell 8k cameras to the masses that will require top profesional studios those masse can't afford. Hilarious!
Don't follow the marketing claims.
 

[D Fuller]

In your original post you talked about 4k ProRes in AE. Later you talk about Cinema 4D and Resolve. I don't use Cinema 4D, but Resolve is a whole different ballgame from AE.

AE has very scalable cache and memory management that lets it handle larger files than your average editing system. You can't work with the footage at 4K unless you buy the 5K iMac, so you can work at 1/4 res or even 1/8th res until you output. If you have trouble with resources at output, you can render to TIFF or DPX or EXR, output in smaller batches, and compress those into ProRes or whatever you like. AE is designed to make small computers work like big computers.

None of that applies to Resolve. The iMac will choke on Resolve. It doesn't have the GPUs to handle 4K for anything more than basic playback at reduced res. For that matter, it really doesn't have the GPU power for HD if you're going to do any real grading. The top-tier GPUs in the nMacPro are just OK at handling 4K footage for input (how OK depends a lot on the codec), but have a VERY hard time if you ask the machine to output 4K. (If you ask it to output 6K it just sits there.)

I also have to say it seems silly to me to put a $7,000 RAID on an iMac. There are a lot of reasons, but the first is: How are you going to back that big boy up?

You're going to have about $9,000 sunk into those two pieces of hardware alone. There are a lot better ways to allocate that money.


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[fredjeang2]

I think this thread, or at least in the sense I'd take it personaly, is good to enquire a bit on purpose-mediums.

If you do the Marvels, Star Wars and all the Hollywood entertainment (bread and circus) saga, then 3D, 4K, even 50K is great.
You want to see in ultra high def the shiny reflect on the hero's Shell, or the Little flashing lights on the space battleship with particules and explosions and so on
That's entertainment.

Now, if you're goal is doing serious stuff, you don't need all that BS.
Just take a look at Avedon's generation fashion photographers...there were a few star over there. You can name at least 10 big names.
Where are they now with their 60Mpx cameras?

Get a BM or even this digital Bolex that delivers a fantastic organic look. That's all you'd need. IMO.

There is a huge marketing pressure everywhere to incitate people to buy things they do not need nor will be able to afford all the chain devices to work well.
Don't fall in that trap.

[adrjork]

@D Fuller about GH4:
I agree with you Mr. D Fuller.
I've seen a comparison lowlight test between GH4 and A7R II made by Andrew Reid (http://www.eoshd.com/2015/08/panasonic-gh4-vs-sony-a7r-ii-low-light-speed-booster-shootout/). Both cameras are equiped with Speed Booster, and the A7R II seems win undoubtedly, but the Sony (S-Log, 8bit) mounted a f/1.4 lens, while the GH4 (without V-Log, and only 8bit) mounted a f/2 lens. I think that with a really fast lens (f/1.2), the new V-Log (plus 2 stops) and 10bit recording, the GH4 can match the sony.

Just a question (very crucial for me): you say that speedboster is a sharpness killer. I thought that detailed images could balance lowlight conditions (or poor lowlight camera performance) avoiding noise. I mean: clearer image for less noise. Isn't so? Please give me your opinion. Thx

@fredjeang2 about the microcamera:
The reason of GH4 (or Sony) is that I'm searching for an hybrid camera because I'd use it also for stills. But anyway thank you for your advice, I didn't see this microcamera, very interesting!

@D fuller about Davinci:
I agree with you again, Mr. D Fuller. So, Let say that After Effects and Cinema 4D are my fundamental needs (the course I'm going to follow requires these two softwares), but for grading flat log footage what could I use? In your opinion Colorista could do a good job with HD footage? And as archive, what RAID can I use to archive but also directly work with HD 10bit Prores footage? Could be sufficient a G-Speed Q via USB3 or via thunderbolt/sata adapter?

Thx for your help

P.S. Mr. fredjeang2 I agree completely with your last post

[fredjeang2]

I'm simply Fred.

But you are cutting in Premiere Pro if I understand?
Because if you're using AE it sounds natural. Then there is a grading App within the suite no? (is it the so called Speedgrade?)

If cut on Avid or FCP7 look at Baselight editions.

Resolve lite, staying HD, seems to me the most powerfull for free.

If you want to grade 4k there is a very interesting rental plan option from Assimilate Scratch (I use it)
and you pay what you use. Not cheap cheap but affordable.
However, the learning curve in Scratch is a bit more complex than Resolve.(and requirements are similar to Resolve)

[adrjork]

Thx Fred,
I'd use actually FCPX. Really, up to now, I have always graded in After Effects (also because Resolve lite is very ram demanding and without noise reduction, and up to now I've only an old 4GB-ram Santarosa MacBook Pro). I'll look for Assimilate Scratch and Baselight editions (I didn't know them).

[adrjork]

Sorry guys if I insist, but your opinion about the sharpness question is quite important for me:
More sharpness helps images in lowlight conditions (details avoid noise)? Or smooth lenses work as de-noiser?

[D Fuller]

Just a question (very crucial for me): you say that speedboster is a sharpness killer. I thought that detailed images could balance lowlight conditions (or poor lowlight camera performance) avoiding noise. I mean: clearer image for less noise. Isn't so? Please give me your opinion. Thx

All camera choices are a series of trade-offs. Detailed images and noise-free images are two different goals altogether. They don't have much to so with each other. Sharpness and detail are also different things. Speed Boosters reduce the sharpness of lenses. But by providing more light to the sensor, they do effectively reduce noise, all other things being equal.

I agree with you again, Mr. D Fuller. So, Let say that After Effects and Cinema 4D are my fundamental needs (the course I'm going to follow requires these two softwares), but for grading flat log footage what could I use? In your opinion Colorista could do a good job with HD footage?

If you have, as Fred suggests, the Adobe suite, then you should take a good look at Speedgrade. It's a good tool. You can get a lot done with it. I don't like Colorista much, and at least when I tried it, it was a resource hog.

And as archive, what RAID can I use to archive but also directly work with HD 10bit Prores footage? Could be sufficient a G-Speed Q via USB3 or via thunderbolt/sata adapter?

You need a RAID to do much in post-production. You need it for the speed more than anything else. But a lot of space helps too. But it seems unlikely that you need a 64TB RAID. The G-speed devices are probably quite good (I have no experience with it) but they come in much smaller sizes. Areca makes very good Thunderbolt 2 RAID enclosures as well. You can buy them empty and put whatever drives you like inside.

We could help you a lot more if you would tell us more about what you're trying to do. Please don't take this wrong, but you sound like you're just starting to do video, and yet you are talking about buying a massive-capacity RAID that would serve a feature film. It's confusing. You're talking about making films with no light. It's confusing.

[D Fuller]

Sorry guys if I insist, but your opinion about the sharpness question is quite important for me:
More sharpness helps images in lowlight conditions (details avoid noise)? Or smooth lenses work as de-noiser?

No. More sharpness does not help images to be less noisy. (I think that's what you're asking.)

Noise has nothing to do with lenses. It is a characteristic of sensors.

Noise destroys sharpness, but sharpness does not affect noise. Light affects noise. More light on the sensor produces images that are above the noise floor, and so are less noisy. (That's why you should think about lights.)

[adrjork]

Mr. D Fuller you are right: it's confusing!
The fact is that I'm in a Conservatory course of video-composition for music. The course is based on After Effects during the first year, and on Cinema 4D during the second year. During this pair of months, before the course begins, my Prof asked to me to buy a camera (video and stills) to make practice by myself and search for my taste. Naturally I dream to try everything: try to shot poetic shorts in Sokurov's style (!) but also try to shot something more... clinic (!!) to use with Cinema 4D.

So I started to compare cameras that were good in lowlight (Sokurov, Bartas, Tarr are my models!) but also able to produce detailed images (to use with Cinema 4D). A camera for all the seasons

At last I wondered what kind of Mac could handle the footage of that camera... then my hell began

[fredjeang2]

Listen to D Fuller. (by the way D is for Dave?)
He knows what he is talking about.

Best to dowscale your 4k "needs" and invest in light,
And this light investment will still be operative in 10 years
While the GH4 is obsolete next year...
Because instead of a camera that can shoot clean files
At 12000isos, but without lightning, no control nor shape
Will be possible. So you'll get flat images without personality.
Light and audio are far more important to consider than
Resolution aspects. If audio fails, the all falls appart.
If there is no DP work, it's not going to catch emotionaly.

Look, I'd like to "shake you" a bit, in a constructive way.
IMO you are wanting the impossible for the moment.
It's like you feel in desperate need to get it right once
For awhile and got the right kit that will fullfill needs that
Are so far too vagues (because you're starting) and beleive me,
Those needs will change (very fast) as long as you get
More experienced.
Take for sure that the today's investment is a short term one.

Also, it seems that you have a limited budget, wich is fine.
But it is very important, really really important, that you
Learn to NOT be contaminated by internet imputs AND
Camera makers carots...you don't want to be the donky
That bites, because the carot is going to be always a step
Ahead you and you'll never reach it.

I think I had this conversation with D. Fuller some time ago,
On the importance to realise that 90% of internet imputs
By so called "knowledgeable people" are actually crap,
Collective illusions, concepts wrongly understood etc etc...
You need to figure-out who knows, and there are a very few.

Not a long time ago, I opened a thread about ACES in the
Red forum because I was fed-up of contradictory and vague
Imputs that circulate in internet. Secretly, I was hopping
That Graeme Natress would post becsuse he is mostly
The guy I wanted to listen to, and he did, thankfully.
Red forum is generally a place frequented by pros. But even
There, on a delicate subject like ACES, apart from Graeme,
2 or 3 people (alwayd the same dudes) understood what was
Going on while the rest was completly lost and confused.
This gives you an idea about the real knowledge that abunds
In internet. Be critical, make-up your own mind and DO NOT
Follow fashions. 4k fashion, and so on.

IMO, if you get a great HD workflow, with a camera that
Can shoot Prores or cinema DNG in 1080, (or a magic lantern)
you'll be happy, no hassles, stable workflow, and no files
Falling apart in post. That's much much better than 4k
On the cheap.
What you need right now is to practise, practise and
Above all enjoy. The dilema you ask for: 4k +  limited workstation
+ no lights + wanting organic and clinic looks + low budget
Is going to give you lots of hassles and then discouragement.
This does not bring peace.

So, build yourself a more humble workflow for the moment,
But a top one. great HD. And work work workfrom here,
And then, while you progress, your real needs will get clearer.
You'll learn what's really important for you and you'll be
Able to make-up your mind wisedly instead of this pressure
You are putting on your shoulders right now.
Learn the lightning instead of the 4k. Do something fluid.
Doable.

Also, if your goal is to become good at compositing for ex,
And eventually get work in the future, in the learning
Process you really don't want the workstation that is so
Stressed that it will freeze or be too slow. Because once
You adquire knowledge, it's applicable in 4k, 6k or 2000k.
So you want stability and speed in the learning process so
That it does not become an obstacle.

Don't use credit! You'll have bills. Get what you can
Afford. Your equipment would belong to the bank if
You put yourself in such situation. Always cash.
That requires discipline.

I'm not one who can give advices on shooting because
My territory is post prod, but you got a good example
In this forum with Morgan Moore. He started with very little,
Put himself at work, then evolved WHILE DOING, and now
He starts to have his videos broadcasted, and dp a film that
Compeat in festivals. That's the path.
Step by step, no worries on sharpness and resolution and
All that crap illusions for the masses.
Don't be in slavery with specs. When you get experienced,
You'll know. And if your friend has a 4k workflow because
He may be a daddy'son (daddy pays the bills), don't listen,
Don't try to be the same, to get the same because
Everyone has 4k. No. Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

[fredjeang2]

don't build a dyi system.   Call a company like promax http://promax.com/

True! I did that too this year and very very happy.

And when it comes to effects, look into the market with a sharp pencil, because special effects fees have fallen to the floor.  I could drive you through west hollywood and Santa Monica and show you the empty buildings of editorial and effects companies, that prior to 2008 were busting at the seams with work.

The Detroit syndrom in Hollywood too?...quite frightening!! It seems that this is happening too in the colorist craft.
With Resolve lite everyone is a colorist init?...
Are we going to a deprofessionalization? or despecialization? Question I don't have the answer.
As you pointed, being really good at one thing is already difficult, being good at 2 things is rare, and being average at 8 things (I story-board, I direct, I shoot, I DIT, I DP I edit, I FX, I color),  is what seems to be where the wind is blowing from. But a day is 24 hours and we need a life.


And yeah...when 8K is going to point its nose, I don't see it. It's going to be completly surreal.



We need it! We want it!

[Morgan_Moore]

I take it you have a concept of stills.

Say a file from a D3 or something.. downscale it to 1080 px and it is sharp sharp.

Most 'HD" cameras (1080) do not create an image that is even close to this sharp.

So to get HD that is actually that sharp you will be needing a '4k' consumer camera.

I own 2 '4k' cameras (gh4, no recorder, and FS7) both make very very nice HD, but not really actually sharp 4k

I would therefore consider these cameras well suited for 'acquire 4k, work HD'

To actually deliver 4k that looks something like 4k from a still you will be needing a Red or an Alexa I guess.

S