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Author Topic: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing  (Read 32880 times)

adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2015, 01:05:10 pm »

Dear guys, thanks a lot for your attention and your advices! You have finally convinced me. I'll start with a camera + a lens and make practice. I'll work on a (up to) HD workflow. And I'll continue to use my 8-years old MacBookPro with proxies and low-resolution previews. Only once I'll feel the need for a bigger station I'll contact ProMax or something similar. (My wife thanks you for getting me back on the right path.)

Now, let re-start: I'm starting with this course; the purpose of the course is forming a no-better specified video artist for art-music composition. I dream to try different things (trying to imitate my very different heroes: both Few of Us* and Tachiguishi-Retsuden** styles), but before dreaming I've to start learning the basic.

So, just for making the first step: the Camera. Do you think that GH4 could be a good camera for me (as a beginner that could need stills and video) or other? (Anyway I'd use it as suggested by Mr. Morgan_Moore: exclusively for downscaling purpose.)

Thanks again.

*) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWTyHajzbFI
**) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0jXyZ_ClCE
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2015, 02:14:20 pm »

I see hassles.
You will need yes or yes to transcode all your gh4 footage
Previous to post-prod because you won't be able to
Work in 4k anyway.
This is a huge burden.

Then, your transcodes, assuming they are the hd proxies
Will have to keep the same filename and timecode and
So on to not mess with the relinks to original footage.
Big big mess on the corner.

Or, you'd use the gh4 in hd from capture. But then what's
The point of a 4k capable camera if you'd use hd?

Think of this: it's not going to be: "cool, I shoot 4k that I
Will deliver in hd". No no no...you won't even be able to
Edit those gh4 files natively on a 8 years old workstation
Nor probably even reviewing them.
So, or you make your wife angry, and buy yourself a top
Workstation, or is forget about 4k. Sorry if that sounds too
Reasonable but that's the truth.

But think of it like Julius Cesar. When they sent him to Spain
Some people of his surrounding laughed at him, pointing
That he was sended to a redneck area without future.
And he answered: "I prefer to be the first between those guys
Than the lastest in Rome".
In other words: better a good hd workflow than a 4k on the cheap.
So it's not really a disgrace but a temporal adaptation.

Also, Morgan pointed a fact: still and video footage aren't
Really matching.

There is another way: forget about a 4k cam to downscale
And buy a second-hand HD camera instead like the BMPCC
Then...yes invest in an external recording device
Integrated with the monitor display like the Atomos or maybe
The video assist from BM (cheaper).
That way, you would record prores proxies + prores 422 or more
At the same time. No convertion. 2 files recorded simultaneously.
So you'd use the proxies for editing and then relink to high res
When needed. So you'll be in the danger zone (high quality prores)
Just in the end of the all process.
And for stills, instead of using still from a still camera, that
Will not have consistency with the footage and will oblige you
To spend time on it, grab stills directly from the camera footage.
That way, you'll have consistency.
The BM hd cameras stands very well 2k delivery for DCP

I pointed out the BM hd cams but I'm sure there are more
Options out there. However, avoid avchd kind of codecs.
A good prores or dnxhd is safe.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 05:14:23 am by fredjeang2 »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 02:22:39 pm »

I have a GH4 and it is very simple to transcode 4k footy with 1080 setting in DaVinci.

Is it a good camera? Im not sure yet.. the images are very nice at F2 or 1.4 so that is my 50mm or SLRmagic 12mm, at 200 ISO - really the high iso (mixed with a bit of under exposure) can come out not so well.

For learning video and taking stills I might go with a Canon or Nikon, but the footage is a bit soft and 4-2-0 does not flex in post at least with APS sensor the lenses seem simpler.. but then there is the booster (more money)

The Gh4 has the huge (to me) bonus of the (now cheap) yag box which can use SDI monitor, or XLR microphones.. Id pick it over a sony A7s but Im not sure that a $600 used CaNikon is not a better place to start.

Really there are infinite options.. none of them good! Cheap = crap, Expensive (like Red) = too heavy!

I have an FS7.. it is lighter than Red but still too heavy - the new Sony FS5 looks light and OK codec with ND and XLR - but probbly an expensive place to start and no stills facility.

I think a good place to start is a simple DSLR with a mic input (and mic level not auto), learn to shoot then make a choice on a more expensive camera???

You will make that choice as the features you need become apparent - some are happy with external audio, odd chip sizes, no ND etc. but some find this ruins their workflow/life.

S
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 02:27:13 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 02:30:49 pm »

Be aware that making a stills camera 'ready for video'.. nice ND filters, an XLR sound box, rigs and stuff can get expensive very fast.. soon you have spent the money you would have spend on a used C100 or a new Sony FS5 and just have a bunch of cables and loose bolts that drive you so mad you buy a C100/FS5 anyway!

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 02:42:41 pm »

Be aware that making a stills camera 'ready for video'.. nice ND filters, an XLR sound box, rigs and stuff can get expensive very fast.. soon you have spent the money you would have spend on a used C100 or a new Sony FS5 and just have a bunch of cables and loose bolts that drive you so mad you buy a C100/FS5 anyway!

S

Lol! So true!!

 
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 07:08:33 pm »

Just curious... Between an old C100 (internal codec) and a BMCC2.5k, what do you prefer guys?

And about ProMax... I've found here in my place a shop that configures OSX compatible machines (we could say "hackintosh") that are power/cost really damn effective and run OSX. Do you think it's a good solution?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 07:26:25 pm by adrjork »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 05:44:00 am »

I think Morgan pointed an interested fact (and dilema).
It's between a rock and a hard place because
Or we got a completly fragmentated set-up, unpractical
And extremely annoying, or it's a proper video camera.

The dilema, as far as I know, is that what looks cheap
At first (still cameras rigged for video) ends to be expensive,
Heavy and big to make the all lego works properly...
As Morgan pointed,
And the proper video cameras like the Alexa etc...are expensive.

So is there a decent compromise between boths?
A proper video camera, ergonomicaly and technically
Made for motion that shoot good files like Prores HQ,
But at the same time affordable and manegeable in post?

Yes. But nothing is perfect because the golden rule in
This material world is that what's good is expensive.
You'll have to sacrifice something and make a balance.

Morgan's right about HDMI in the thread of video assist.
It sucks. But...the video assist is 1/2 the price of more
Robust solutions and fullfill the need it's made for.
Price to pay: robustness.

My personal imput, putting myself on your case, would be
To purchase a second-hand BMPCC or their new micro camera
In the link I put before, then a video assist, and tons of batteries.
And an external recorder like a Zoom H4 second-hand also.
A cage for the BMPCC costs 100 bucks and the all thing
Will not be too messy, nor too unpractical, nor too fragile...
Ok, not a proper motion camera as Morgan would like,
And he is right, but
Not dslr garbage either.
Get 2 micro 4-3 lenses permanently
Mounted with variable ND filters.
For about 2000-2500 bucks you're good to go. About same
Cost as the C100.
You'd shoot prores hq + prores proxies at the same time.

The files from the BM are going to be pretier, more "cine like"
And more robust in post than the C100
But the C100 is a real motion camera.
So or is it good IQ and stability in post with the BM,
And remember that you will be able to shoot Raw also
So when you upgrade your workstation you'll have raw files.
But you sacrify ergonomic, or...you put ergonomic on first
Place and get AVCHD in low bitrate...
No miracle I'm afraid.

Sure there are more solutions out there without breaking
The bank account.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 06:04:55 am by fredjeang2 »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2015, 10:18:45 am »

I'm probably the smallest guy of this forum as I height
The same as Al Paccino and quite look like him too...
I imagined the Cooter tall, maybe because he's not fat
Wich gives the sensarion of altitude.
But hey, small guys we have an advantage over tall guys:
We're fast!

James, you're right about prefering 4k over 2 but all turns about the
Fact that the thread's opener has not the budget to build
A complete 4k compliant system. The bills would jump
At the speed of light and for someone who's more or less
Starting it's absurd. Really.

In terms of cameras, I think that both Morgan and James
Are right.
I do too hate those little buttons of video cameras, their
Video codecs and file looks, and
Also hate the mess in cablery, weight and lack of ergonomics,
Myriad of accessories and mecano or lego like rigging stuff..

For godness shake! Is it that difficult for camera makers
To do something that would meet both requirements?
Bloody hell. Were the f....k are the designers and what
They are payed for?
I don't see why we couldn't get something the size of
A Phase one camera with integrated evf that shoot prores 444
With built-in nd, proper audio connect and already rigged to
Receive accessories, that weights little and sold with a
Dedicated Pelican case etc...

That's beyond my understanding.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 10:24:05 am by fredjeang2 »
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2015, 11:43:29 am »

Well, to allow us to make friends in forums I suppose ;)
I'm impressed by the amount of stimulation that I'm getting here from you all guys! Thanks really.
Anyway...

What about my former dounbt about hackintosh: do you think it's a good solution to have a more cost-effective machine (as I said I've found here in my place a shop that configures OSX compatible machines). It seems good to me. Or is it better to go for ProMax only?
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2015, 12:13:21 pm »

ProMax says to me they builds only Windows-based workstations. No hackintosh. (I have always been afraid of Windows... but perhaps I've to change my mind...)
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2015, 01:56:24 pm »

... or moved on to Avid.

BC
Yeah...the most unintuitive NLE ever built!

I see more and more dudes cutting directly in Nuke
(with its complementary app) and Resolve 12 is an
Avid killer, destroyer, bomber, eliminator, evaporator..

Just kidding...

http://www.clintonharn.com/?p=529



« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 04:58:46 pm by fredjeang2 »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2015, 04:05:19 pm »

Cooter.. Morgan also doesn't like heavy cameras, though they shoot smoother than a small lightweight cameras and he doesn't like filters, but I have faders for all my lenses and as long as there good quality I've had few problems using faders.

Adjork
No one here is an idiot.. what you are seeing is that different people have different ways of working, and different needs.

If I fly usually my client wont pay for extra bags.. so Im on a camera kit you can get in a ThinkTank and a bag in the hold with a tripod and spare underwear and a light..(yes even the BBC wont fund extra bagage at the lower level).. Coots moves with four guys and 10 cases (or more!)

So I like light cameras not 'cos I cant shoulder the heavy big ones.. it is because they eat my Thinktank

I do maybe more 'actuality' (running after live action) than Coots - so I might follow someone from EXT to INT and need to just clunk the ND filter wheel out to keep shooting - on more 'formal' shoots there is time to swap filters. (I shot a feature on a BMC and had an A/C to swap filters for me.. no problem :) )

Also Faders (polarizing ND filters) do horrid things to thin codec cameras (like the FS100 I owned) - now a fader might make your footage a little green.. but if you are shooting raw on a Red One then it is easy to correct.

So different things work for different setups.

----

The reason I suggest buying a $500 DSLR or GH2 is that you should buy it in the knowledge that in 3 months you will sell it and buy what you actually want.

Those three months you will find what is important to you.. sound? zoom lenses? built in ND? amazing files? Large chip size? Size? Long roll time with no overheat or cards full? High ISO?

Once you have shot a little your needs will become clear to you.. and you might go for a
Pocket BM (tiny - great file, shitty connectors awful sound),
a used Red One (heavy - greatest file for the dollar?)
a sony FS5 (OK file, full featured video camera)
A7s (Everything horrid but the ISO!)

or something else.

Each has it's place. None is perfect. None offers the whole list.

S



« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 04:23:10 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2015, 04:48:07 pm »

No one here is an idiot.. what you are seeing is that different people have different ways of working, and different needs.
Yes, it's the first thing I understood in this discussion ;)
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2015, 09:14:25 pm »

Dear guys, as I said to Mr. Morgan Moore in another thread, I think I made a decision: I'm going to buy the GH4.
I think to start with a GH4 and just one lens: the 42.5 Nocticron f/1.2.

When I'll feel +/- ready to begin shooting something decent, I'll buy the Atomos Shogun and a microphone (together with a cost-effective hackintosh workstation).

Just a question about ND filters: someone recommends the practical Xume Adapters kit with the Genus Eclipse variable ND filter, but others say that GH4 needs for an IR filter too when ND is on.
Do you think:
1. Is it better a non-variable filter than a variable one?
2. Is it better an IRND filter than ND + IR filters?
3. Genus Eclipse alone (without IR) is good anyway?

Thanks a lot.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 09:27:24 pm by adrjork »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2015, 04:47:29 am »

I suggest to consider those following points,
And sorry to be again the buzzbreaker
(you're going to end to hate me) but I think your
Choice is not really the best.

If Michael Reichmann sees this, I'd like him to
Comment on the following, because if my memory's
Correct he pointed it a long time ago: there is a strange
Thing with the micro4/3 mount is that it seems that
The benefits to put expensive lenses (let's say like the
Leica M line) does not bring better IQ. This is something
I've been seeing over and over again with the m4/3, and
Others have also pointed it.
Actually I did in the past some testings with cine lenses
From the Konvas cameras that can be bought in ebay for
About 150 bucks and they performed as well if not better
Than much much more expensive glasses.
Why? I ignore, but for some reasons, probably the sensor size,
m4/3 is a world in itself and you don't need to spend 2000 bucks
And above to get optimal IQ.
Please, if some knowledgeable people could comment
On this point it would be nice.

Also, your going to work with 80mm ish with the lens
You want to buy. Therefore the problem of stability can
Not be ignored.  You'll need a serious rig and a very stable
Tripod like a Vitten Vision. The focal length choosen is
Problematic in those aspects and very fast, when you'll be
Fed-up of a footage that shakes like a lap dancer chick,
You'll end to buy a wide lens or have to spend 3000 more
Bucks in good tripod (expensive!) and rig.
My advice would be to elect a wider focal at first.

So we are again in what Morgan and Coot said. What looks
Cheap and affordable will soon be more and more bills.
Then all you'll have will be fragmentated equipment that
You will not sell in ebay because the gh5 or 6 will be available
And as those are consummer cams made to last 2 or 3 years.
And you'll think "why the hell I didn't buy at first..."

Those are the kind of lenses you might want to look at
For micro 4/3: http://www.veydra.com/
They are afforbable, small and more suitable for motion.
Actually they are cine lenses.
But you'll get for 200 bucks a lens, a very good IQ with
The Konvas lenses, made by the soviets in the cold war
Era for their 35mm Cine cameras. In Oct18 or 19 mount
And pro adapters are available in ebay.

Now the gh4. It's a consummer camera, right? Obsolete
In 2 years, with the need of legorig (i should pattent this
Expression), not exactly "filmic look", not exactly small, nor big,
Nor bad nor great, nor....what else?

It's interesting to note the fact that the Cooter's Red1s are
Still fully in service and not obsoletes after those years
While the myriad of B cams he tried were changed every
Year or so.
In the end, all those consummer cameras are just short
Terms investment and in the end, in a few years you spent
The same as if you bought directly a pro equipment.
That's the thing camera makers don't want you to realise.

We are living in a hyperconsumist society. Needs have to
Be created with marketing bombings to the masses so
They are constantly unsatisfied and constantly buying
The next generation gear that gives momentany satisfaction,
One week or 2. Then they'll feel the need of "the magical
Update". Gh4, Sony alpha, 4k logos...are just that.
Professional gear are made to last and work for years.
In the end you'll pay the same.
Big difference.
So step-away from consummer equipment and invest
In pro gear from the very beginning.

Seriously, keeping the m4/3 mount, I'd go with the 900euros
Blackmagic micro camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41zAfvdsUJs.
Smaller, easier to rig, professional,
With a much better codec and Raw. + the video assist + cage +
Batteries, for about 2000 your done and you record 2 files
Flavour at the same time wich is superb.
Also, the video assist will work on later cameras.
On top of it, I'd mount Konvas or Veydra glasses and forget
Completly the hybrid current plastiquish lenses of Pana-Oly.
Actually buy lenses of a 35mm that you'll be able to
Reuse on others cameras sensor size if you switch later.

Now you can hate me. ;D
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 06:44:16 am by fredjeang2 »
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D Fuller

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2015, 10:24:03 am »

Yeah...the most unintuitive NLE ever built!

Hmmm... (Warning, going off-topic for a moment...)

I see this said all the time and I have never understood it. Back in 1993, when I bought my first Avid, it was supposed to come with a day of training. The system arrived with a tech who helped our engineers set it up (in those days an edit suite required an on-staff engineer) but the trainer was sick, so she didn't show up until several days later. By the time she showed up, I had cut a 30-minute program and exported the list to our Paltex editor for on-line. No training. First NLE I ever used. I looked at the screen and did what was obvious. Even the EDL export was completely logical.

So I've never understood the "not intuitive" comments. But that's just me. YMMV.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 10:25:40 am by D Fuller »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2015, 10:57:26 am »

Hmmm... (Warning, going off-topic for a moment...)

I see this said all the time and I have never understood it. Back in 1993, when I bought my first Avid, it was supposed to come with a day of training. The system arrived with a tech who helped our engineers set it up (in those days an edit suite required an on-staff engineer) but the trainer was sick, so she didn't show up until several days later. By the time she showed up, I had cut a 30-minute program and exported the list to our Paltex editor for on-line. No training. First NLE I ever used. I looked at the screen and did what was obvious. Even the EDL export was completely logical.

So I've never understood the "not intuitive" comments. But that's just me. YMMV.

I stand on my position.
I've been cutting during 3 years in MC and went quite far in the training and the tricks behind the tricks of its implementation. And no Dave. May it's robust, excellent media management etc...and would agree. But it's completly unintuitive (apart from basic editing).
This is a conversation I had several time with M.P who speaks french (don't writte his name here on purpose because he his working but you know who I am reffering to), who is one of the most knowledgeable guy on M.C and helps thousands of people to overcome typical editing issues as well as typical Avid "way"  >:( in Red forum and the cow and himself says that it is everything except intuitive.

In fact, what happens is that the "old folks" have lived with it and get used to each software generation so it seems "natural" for them.
And as you are old folk (do not mean old, grey hair and big belly  ;D), well you are used to it for decades. For the new generation, it's another story.

Look, Avid is the standart here in broadcast and a big part of film industry also. And I do not know just one kid who is studdying motion who is learning it, despite they perfectly know it's the standart. Not one! They all learn PP, FCP aix, Smoke...and the guys at Avid are very aware of it because they told me so and even many of the employees thinks that the days of MC are numberded
in a way or another. They will probably do the same as EditShare, center on media management solutions.
Kids hate it. Too tedius, extremely well featured but not intuitive for this generation. Stay away 3 or 4 months from an Avid seat and when you're back it's..."oh well...how did I...f...k"
and it takes an entire day to just remember it's tricks and backstage to be back at the require speed. No sir! that's not 2015.

Why so many people went FCP at the Golden age? up to 7th
Because it was more simple and offered the same (more or less).

I remember a 10 years avid editor old folk who didn't remember the custom sift implementation after it's summer hollydays and it made me do a video on this custom sift stuff.
Tell me why do you have to unsift and the refresh the sequence when you do an edit decisiĆ³n? 3 steps intead of one. That's Avid. What can be done in 1 step costs 3.
ok, some would say, and I won't disagree completly, that what looks extra steps are often necessary to "secure" the tasks if done in a logical way. Yes. But they went too far on this philosophy IMO.
even Protools...you can't imagine the number of dudes I know in the music industry, and I know quite a few, who have switched to reapper-steinberg. A lot of people! For the same reason, not for costs.
I wish Avid the best, because there are Jobs involved, but man! this is 90's way of thinking.

To some extend Avid reminds me Arri. Now... are we living in an Arri land for long or is it moving years after years to a Blackmagic-Red land?

MC is great, it can be fast in the hand of a trained editor, but it's not intuive. Sorry. its learning curve is way more complicated than any other NLE without being significantly better except
in media management robustness. (and I'm not even sure of it)
So, if Thelma cut a multi-million dollar Scorcese movie on Lightworks for decades, and LW is inuitive and way way faster even without the console, I cut my 1000 dollar movies on LW.

Come on Dave! you know I'm not being foolish here.

Sorry adrjork for being out of topic. Here a link showing exclusively BMPCC footage:
Is that Sharp enough?

And by the way: does someone has a clue why the Arri rosette and the Red ones are different? Sometimes I'm amazed by this industry standarts...indeed.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 02:03:07 pm by fredjeang2 »
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2015, 02:42:09 pm »

Well, it seems to me that any of you, nice guys, has a position based on own style and needs.
BMCs seems wonderful, but perhaps is particular conditions, mainly expressing their whole potential in pro's hands.
I don't feel up to handle a little-pro cam like that, with all-manual lenses and without stabilization. And I'd like to try to take stills too.
Mr. Morgan Moore's advice was GH2. I agree with him. GH4 is just the double of an used-hacked GH2 (and I must say that I prefer the image of GH4). So for my needs at the moment it seems a good compromise.

But it would be interesting to reflect on the lens: Fred, you say Veydra, but are not cheap: +/- 900$ per lens. And as you know I'm a beginner, so Veydra build all-manual lenses without stabilization. Nocticron has stabilization and is fast.
Tell me guys if I'm wrong: GH4 is ISO800 based, isn't a low-light champion, and I'd use it without adding light, so with a f/1.2 + a crop factor of 2.3 I should obtain simply a reasonably fast cam. 42.5mm become more than 85mm on GH4, so yes it's a potrait/tele lens that should give a reasonably shallow d.o.f. And with IS I should not be worried about shaking: a monopod should be enough.
Do you think I'm completely wrong?

And what about IR filter question?
Someone says that GH4 needs for an IR filter too when ND is on.
I'd go for two filters with Xume Adapters: Genus Eclipse variable ND + Tiffen water white IR.
I'd keep IR always on, also indoor, just to protect lens from dust, is it a good idea or there is any downside?

Thanks all guys.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2015, 03:20:48 pm »

I don't know if the lens you describe (the nocticron) is a still photography lens. Because you'll have breathing in motion, and that's not nice.

Not sure either if the in-stab will be enough in this focal length. (this I don't know)

The Veydra are good bang for the buck. How much is your nocticron?
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adrjork

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2015, 05:40:14 pm »

...Yes, Nocticron is perhap the most expensive m43 lens, you are right Fred ;)
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