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Author Topic: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America  (Read 104289 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #200 on: September 16, 2015, 12:44:41 pm »

[quote]There is also a knee-jerk belief that government-run enterprises always work out badly and cost too much. It's easy to come to that belief, those stories will always get media attention. I've worked mostly in the private sector and a little in the public sector, and the idea that private industry is efficient and government is not just makes me laugh out loud. I can certainly find examples of government inefficiency but so what. [/quote]

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Yes, many private companies are inefficient and waste money and have to charge more because of these things. However, they fall to the wayside as more competitive companies who are more efficient take their customers.  The inefficient companies fail.  That's what competition is all about.  With government, however, single payer systems, etc., there's no competition.  The customers are stuck with having to deal with an entity where the workers know their customers have no where else to go.  There's little incentive to do better.  I worked for a government agency once after working in private industry.  I brought this money saving idea to my boss.  His response was, "Why do you care what it costs?"  That's government mentality. 

Look at the Veterans' Administration.  Veterans are dying because of VA incompetence and delays.  They should shut it down and give vouchers to the veterans and let them shop private medical sources on their own.  That way they will get the best care.  From private industry. 

amolitor

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #201 on: September 16, 2015, 12:50:16 pm »

Why put a hospital up in that crappy little town full of poor people? Feh. Those guys will definitely never be able to generate enough revenue to pay for it. And they CERTAINLY will not generate enough revenue in the next quarter to pay for it, and as you may or may not know, quarterly revenue is literally the only thing that matters.

So, fuck 'em. Let 'em die.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #202 on: September 16, 2015, 03:01:30 pm »

Why put a hospital up in that crappy little town full of poor people? Feh. Those guys will definitely never be able to generate enough revenue to pay for it. And they CERTAINLY will not generate enough revenue in the next quarter to pay for it, and as you may or may not know, quarterly revenue is literally the only thing that matters.

So, fuck 'em. Let 'em die.

Or travel a bit. There's ample compelling evidence that any complex procedures are far, far safer if done in hospitals with a big throughput.

Jeremy
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Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #203 on: September 16, 2015, 03:11:38 pm »

Please show that, in the decade before Obamacare, healthcare insurance premiums became lower and medical bills became lower and healthcare outcomes improved.

As you've made no attempt to show that was the case, can we agree that in the decade before Obamacare, healthcare insurance premiums did not became lower and medical bills did not became lower?


1. You shop for insurance before you get sick.


Before you have received treatment, you don't know what the healthcare provider will choose to charge the healthcare insurer, or what your insurance company will refuse to pay.

As healthcare insurers change the policies several times a year, you need an attorney to work through hundreds of pages of legalise to figure out how the coverage changed.



3. Medicare and Medicaid have been part of the economy for decades.  When the government pays for anything, it raises costs.
   

Evidently not.

…French NHI is more generous than what a “Medicare for all” system would be like in the United States…

Life expectancy at birth:
2000, USA 77, France 79 years;
2010, USA 79 years, France 82 years.

Per capita Health expenditure:
2000, USA $4,818, France $2,209;
2010, USA $8,299, France $4,584.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 03:14:22 pm by Isaac »
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Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #204 on: September 16, 2015, 03:18:08 pm »

Yes. But they've been outvoted ( lost the argument ).

Are you under the impression that the USA held something like the Scottish independence referendum but for healthcare?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #205 on: September 16, 2015, 03:26:27 pm »

... Life expectancy at birth:
2000, USA 77, France 79 years;
2010, USA 79 years, France 82 years...


But of course.

French are allowed to drink wine and have mistresses while Americans have to drown their sorrow of sexless marriage in beer and junk food ;-)

DeanChriss

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #206 on: September 16, 2015, 03:29:23 pm »

I've purchased healthcare from private companies for three decades and the costs have done nothing but skyrocket for three decades. If my taxes went up $10K per year for a single payer system (which they would not) I'd still save a bundle over the cost of private (for profit) insurance.
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DeanChriss

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #207 on: September 16, 2015, 03:31:26 pm »

But of course.

French are allowed to drink wine and have mistresses while Americans have to drown their sorrow of sexless marriage in beer and junk food ;-)

Ha ha ha ha! Thanks for making me laugh.
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Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #208 on: September 16, 2015, 03:38:22 pm »

As much as the American health system leaves much to be desired, and as much we might admire (or not) Canadian, Australian, Finnish, etc. socialized ones, one thing remains: social, political and economic systems can not be easily Frankenstein-ized, i.e., built by patching pieces, best of multiple worlds, into one.

"Lessons for the United States include the importance of government’s role in providing a statutory framework for universal health insurance; recognition that piecemeal reform can broaden a partial program (like Medicare) to cover, eventually, the entire population; and understanding that universal coverage can be achieved without excluding private insurers from the supplementary insurance market."
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #209 on: September 16, 2015, 03:54:42 pm »

The American system overall has been based on a brutal competition, survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, winner-takes-all, etc. None of which works well with the concern for the well-being for everyone. On the contrary, many of its components, like the healthcare system or penal system for that matter, are designed to penalize the losers, not to make their life easier.

Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #210 on: September 16, 2015, 05:00:54 pm »

And…?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #211 on: September 16, 2015, 05:11:39 pm »

And…?

And that explains why it is not easy to Frankenstein-ize systems. You can't have a component that is going against the very logic of the rest of the system. Like with transplants, a body tends to reject it.

Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #212 on: September 16, 2015, 05:32:21 pm »

So, you can't have government flood insurance?

So, you can't have government insurance of funds deposited in banks?

etc etc
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #213 on: September 16, 2015, 06:01:00 pm »

You are smarter than that, Isaac.

Besides, in both of your examples, government insurance is rather limited or supplementary.

Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #214 on: September 16, 2015, 06:15:15 pm »

Besides, in both of your examples, government insurance is rather limited or supplementary.

Evidently your "can't have" is actually a "can have".
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #215 on: September 16, 2015, 06:33:53 pm »

Evidently your "can't have" is actually a "can have".

Again, you are smarter than that, but apparently your can't help your hair-splitting persona.

Isaac

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #216 on: September 16, 2015, 06:44:53 pm »

Is name-calling the best argument you have?
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Ray

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #217 on: September 16, 2015, 10:50:56 pm »

Perhaps more pertinently, this issue revolves around the concept of equality. What do we mean by 'equality'?

Clearly, people are not equal with regard to talent, ability, intelligence and motivation, so I see no good reason why everyone should have equal material wealth, if wealth is a reward for a particular type of talent and motivation.

Rather, I see equality as applying to equal opportunity and equal access to fundamental needs for survival.

Some people appear to need great wealth to feed their bloated ego (one might even feel sorry for them). Others might be satisfied by having merely enough wealth to pursue their interests and take care of basic needs such as food, shelter and medical care.

I'm in that latter category. I feel secure, even though I have no private medical insurance. If I were living in America, with my current financial circumstances, I would probably feel very insecure.  :(
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jjj

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #218 on: September 18, 2015, 04:28:48 pm »

By the same token, you can not claim that RR is the worst car just because you (or the majority of people) can not afford it.
You could if it cost more to make that it was sold for and was also quite unreliable - which many high end cars appear to be.
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jjj

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Re: The Tyranny of Medical Bills in America
« Reply #219 on: September 18, 2015, 04:39:35 pm »

Competition lowers cost.  It also drives up quality and innovation. Single-provider systems do the opposite.
Medicine is not a business and should not be regarded as one, it is a service.
There is no real competition in medicine. It is not something where you can go online and read reviews whilst having a coffee then decide which treatment centre to go to.
People are not interested in choice with medicine They simply want to get treated close to home and as soon as possible. All doctors and hospitals should be good.
If you are not good enough then you need binning.
There are other factors - If the best hospital was 60 miles away and this meant you wouldn't receive many if any visitors because of the time taken to travel and such like. Then you may not fare as well well because of low morale and feeling lonely.
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