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Author Topic: Leica Review  (Read 27107 times)

jackmacd

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2015, 12:15:12 pm »

I have and have used the S system for many years.
It works for me, just as the Pentax system works for MR.
The wonderful viewfinder and the lenses are what brought me to the system and they will keep me in the system for now.
But in about three years digital viewfinders may be even better.

When I got into the system, I liked that Leica chose their own sensor size and build the camera from the ground up for digital. It seemed to make sense. But I realized even then that by 2018 a mirrorless MF version with smaller lens size might be the next step. But I was taking pictures in 2011.
And I will be taking pictures in 2016 and 2017. The simple controls work well for me. The camera is robust for outdoor or indoor work.

As a business proposition, Leica was smart to drop the price on this next version. Even though I can "write off" my capital purchases, the $24,000 price was blocking my idea of an upgrade, even though it was still much cheaper than a Phase One. I do not consider an S "veblen goods" since it is half way between the Pentax and the Phase. I think Leica realizes that demand for the S requires some sense of value and the $24,000 price was insupportable if they wanted to sell in adequate quantity. The new price will allow me to consider this upgrade and was the biggest news. Thankfully the tether is now USB3.

I understand many very good photographers choose not to spend over $3,000 on a camera much less $7,000 or $16,000, or $40,000, as it is fortunately not a requirement.  But please do not assume that a Leica purchaser is "showing off" or "rich". I know S users who find the camera perfect for them and have made a financial sacrifice to purchase the system they find perfect for them. The same could be said about a Phase One, or Canon or Nikon or Sony. When someone asks me what I shoot, I assume they are asking what subjects I photograph. If they follow up and are asking what equipment I use, I admit I use everything from an iPhone to a digital medium format camera. I have had only one person drill down and ask what brand of digital medium format camera I use. He turned out to be interested in purchasing a medium format camera and had real world questions about various systems. Other than the readers of this forum, there are really not too many people who even know the Leica brand exists. So if someone thinks photographers are buying the S for "bling" it really won't work that way since so very few people know what "Leica" is anyway. For the few who do, using a rebranded Panasonic perhaps will be adequate.






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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2015, 12:47:45 pm »

Kudos to Leica for getting that loaner to you so fast.
I think you can stop with the sarcasm.  We clearly know your position and you know ours.  Let's elevate the conversation please.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2015, 01:53:00 pm »

... Why would someone entering into digital photography want to buy it?...

Certainly a nubie shouldn't. Just like you do not buy a Ferrari the moment you get your drivers license (unless you want to total it soon thereafter).

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2015, 01:53:41 pm »

I think you can stop with the sarcasm...

Why? It is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device. Fun as well.

telyt

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2015, 01:55:55 pm »

I think you can stop with the sarcasm.  We clearly know your position and you know ours.  Let's elevate the conversation please.

Let's elevate the conversation by using the camera before critiquing it.
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2015, 02:12:43 pm »

As someone who has long wanted a Leica S2 I am heartened by the recent price drop on used ones to around $5,000 on ebay. When you consider that Leica has adapters for Hasselblad, Mamiya and Pentax 6x7 lenses it makes for a versatile system. There is a used one in my future.
Mike
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telyt

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2015, 02:41:59 pm »

As someone who has long wanted a Leica S2 I am heartened by the recent price drop on used ones to around $5,000 on ebay. When you consider that Leica has adapters for Hasselblad, Mamiya and Pentax 6x7 lenses it makes for a versatile system. There is a used one in my future.
Mike

Also Contax 645
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2015, 02:58:25 pm »

thanks- was just getting ready to add Cantax
Mike
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John Camp

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2015, 03:09:31 pm »

Let's elevate the conversation by using the camera before critiquing it.

I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance; or perhaps the value/performance metric assuming that Michael's review is accurate, and his reviews are usually pretty good. Some -- probably very few -- people may need specific performance aspects of the Leica that they can't get elsewhere, using "performance" in its widest sense -- they want the ergonomics, they want the viewfinder, or whatever, and that's fine, but most people (not all) need to work through the value equation as well. I'm not trying to insult anyone when I say that I think the performance aspects of the Leica are mostly a chimera. Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead? I doubt it; and after their hands and eyes began to fit the Canon or Nikon, I doubt that you'd see much difference in the photography, either, except that it might be better, because the high-end Japanese cameras seem to have a lot more capabilities.

Back in the film days, I bought new Nikons instead of Pentaxes, even though the Nikons were more expensive, and even though I really believed that the Pentaxes were just as good. Why? Because I'd been a longtime Nikon user, and I simply felt at home with them. If you feel at home with a Leica, I know where you're coming from -- but where you're coming from is a very expensive place. Back in the Nikon days, I wouldn't have paid a $13,000 premium for a camera body, even if it fit me well. I'l learn something else for the $13,000.

JC
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amolitor

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2015, 03:20:42 pm »

Camera owners are remarkably unwilling to admit that cameras are luxury items. They feel the need to justify the prices.

Why? Just put your man pants on and say "I spent $20K on a camera because I can, and the small but measurable benefits are worth it to me"

You don't normally see BMW owners trying to justify the car on the grounds that it serves their grocery shopping needs. It's about owning an awesome car that's fun to own, that looks nice, and has some small but tangible benefits over a Chevy. It it worth the $50K (or whatever premium you paid) additional? If you're asking that question, you've missed the point.

Is the slightly increased.. whatever.. worth the extra $10K? Who cares? It's a Leica S. It's has tangible benefits, but it is also a luxury item.
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telyt

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2015, 03:29:04 pm »

...Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead?

For me the viewfinder is the most important part of the user interface and I detest the viewfinders of the CaNikon cameras, high-end and especially otherwise.  I will not use them.
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Manoli

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2015, 04:35:28 pm »

I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance ...

Well if it is, it's being critiqued by a majority who clearly prefer to theorise rather than relate their own personal experiences. There's been sufficient first hand testimony, in this thread and others, as to both the quality and performance of the S - and the quality isn't just measured by a sensor metric - it's the whole cam, lenses and reliability included.

I'm still waiting for the user report that says 'I owned the cam, tried it, used it, it was c**p and I dumped it.' As far as I know, so are Leica.

As to the price, what's being overlooked is that though the S(007) is indeed £10,750 exc tax / circa €15,000 in the UK/EU. The S-E, the CCD 006 version (I'm told, not yet confirmed) is £8,275 excl tax but inclusive of the 70/2.5 Summarit. That will equate to approximately £5,000 body only - if confirmed. Expect to see an analogous drop in second hand values. Considering that the S is AF compatible with a host of other lenses -  for a pioneering camera, IMO, that ain't outrageous.

Onto the price/performance metric. From the limited jpeg shots MR posted in his review, and here I'm only guessing, I see not-as-good-as-expected high ISO performance. I recall Cooter, who is a pro yardstick, saying that he never exceeded ISO800 on the S. From the shots in the review, I don't see the new S much above that - perhaps another stop. So whether you're going to evaluate the cam based on it's latest tech improvements or as compared to the CCD version, will depend on you. Either way my guess is that a lot of photographers will be evaluating both these cams as  serious players in today's market, not as Veblen items.

One more thing - Leica, thank you.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 04:50:35 pm by Manoli »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2015, 04:54:01 pm »

I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance; or perhaps the value/performance metric assuming that Michael's review is accurate, and his reviews are usually pretty good. Some -- probably very few -- people may need specific performance aspects of the Leica that they can't get elsewhere, using "performance" in its widest sense -- they want the ergonomics, they want the viewfinder, or whatever, and that's fine, but most people (not all) need to work through the value equation as well. I'm not trying to insult anyone when I say that I think the performance aspects of the Leica are mostly a chimera. Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead? I doubt it; and after their hands and eyes began to fit the Canon or Nikon, I doubt that you'd see much difference in the photography, either, except that it might be better, because the high-end Japanese cameras seem to have a lot more capabilities.

I pretty much agree with John's point here.  Michael's reviews/experiences are quite solid and he is clear about his likes and dislikes as well as his past history with various brands.  I couldn't ask for anything more.  The critical aspect here is the end product, the image.  I think it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish outstanding images taken with various high end cameras whose prices range from $2500 to $16,000 in the case of this Leica.  There are always going to be preferences in terms of ergonomics, menu layout, etc. but in the end the image matters.  We had a huge discussion several years ago in response to a column that Mark Dubovoy posted arguing about the excellence of a particular piece of equipment.  What is really needed is some blind testing of real images but I doubt that will ever happen.  Clearly we can see differences when things are blown up but that's not the real world by and large.  Is there a better value proposition between this Leica and a Nikon D810 in that regard?  I doubt it.
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dreed

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2015, 05:58:46 pm »

Certainly a nubie shouldn't. Just like you do not buy a Ferrari the moment you get your drivers license (unless you want to total it soon thereafter).

There are very sound reasons why your first car shouldn't be a Ferrari, mainly around safety of the driver and others.

But if a Leica camera shouldn't be your first camera, why should it be your 3rd or 4th?

You're not going to kill anyone with it if you push the shutter button down too hard/long.

Nowhere in Michael's review does he mention that technique is important (as he did with the Nikon D800 review with regard to tripodl, camera movement, etc.)

And the comments here along the lines of "Well, if you haven't used a Leica, of course you won't understand why you would want one." sound like emotional rather than rational arguments.

To compare with the various Phase One reviews, there's always a case made that Phase One have the most megapixels (at least) in their highest end model plus other measurable things. Similarly with Pentax or the Sony A7RII. Even the Pentax 645Z review left me thinking "Yes, I can understand why I would want to buy one of those."

If it is all about the lenses then sure, the lenses should be pricey, but realisticly, camera bodies are commodities. Sure, phones may be turning them into luxury items but commodities they remain. And with cameras such as Sony's A7RII that are being described as "universal cameras", I don't need to buy a Leica S(007) to shoot with Leica S series lenses.

To me the price point and value proposition Leica have in this camera seems to make as much sense as some of the fancy pants Hassleblad cameras.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2015, 06:06:39 pm »

... But if a Leica camera shouldn't be your first camera, why should it be your 3rd or 4th?
... sound like emotional rather than rational arguments...

So? Nobody is trying to rationally persuade anyone that it should be one's 3rd or 4th camera. Like nobody is trying to persuade rationally anyone their next car should be a Ferrari.

Of course it is emotional. How it handles, how it feels, how it makes you feel (prestige, etc.). I can't afford it, but the first time I handled it, I felt like crying (of joy). Something about how it felt in my hands, the simplicity of design, the weight, elegance, etc. Of course it is emotional.

JV

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2015, 08:18:31 pm »

Let me rephase it.

Given $100,000 to spend on any photographic equipment I liked, why would I buy this?

* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)
* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics
* Not a leader in video capability
* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)

I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.

The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.

Let me guess.  You shoot a Sony, right?  Or are thinking about one?

* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)

I love the simplicity and minimalism of Leica.  I don't understand how you can say that a minimal number of buttons equals hard to use... The Leica S is probably one of the most intuitive cameras around.

* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics

I own the Leica S2, the M9 and the T.  The image quality of all 3 is stellar.  How that translates into quality benchmarks I am not sure and I couldn't care less.  I trust what I see and that is good.

* Not a leader in video capability

Not an issue for me personally.  I am curious to see how the new S compares to the rest of the competition but at the end of the day it is not that important to me.

* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)

No offense but with the ability to use Leica S, Contax 645 and Hasselblad H lenses I don't exactly feel at a disadvantage...

I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.

I can understand that.

The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.

If thinking in stereotypes and platitudes makes you feel any better you should continue to do so.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 09:29:21 pm by JV »
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telyt

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2015, 08:52:24 pm »

...  The critical aspect here is the end product, the image...

And missing from most price/performance comparisons is the photographer's personality, quirks, habits and vision.  Some prefer buttons & switches galore, some prefer little more than shutter speed, aperture, ISO and focus.  Some of us would be frustrated by a minimalist UI and would not do optimal work with such a camera, likewise some of us will not do our best work when more control than desired is available.  Make some allowances for individuality and you'll see there's room for all of our preferences even if a blind test of the final image shows no difference.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 10:44:22 pm by wildlightphoto »
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dreed

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2015, 10:04:16 pm »

...
I love the simplicity and minimalism of Leica.  I don't understand how you can say that a minimal number of buttons equals hard to use... The Leica S is probably one of the most intuitive cameras around.
...

It's not me saying that, that's what the review says.
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mjrichardson

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2015, 02:55:26 am »

Ultimately nobody needs to justify why they do or don't want a camera, it's just a camera! If it's too expensive for you then that's fine, if you just don't want it, that's fine, how you define value is entirely up to you! I can state categorically that it makes no difference to me whether anyone else likes it or thinks negatively of me or anyone else who buys it, it just doesn't matter. Obviously Leica is a commercial organisation, it's not a charity so enough people need to buy it to keep it as a viable product but beyond that, I'd actually prefer it if lots of people give it a miss, makes me feel good about my decision.

Performance areas matter to so many people in different ways that there is no universal, for me there is no easier camera to use, it's a fact for me but may not be for others. I have many many thousands of images from Nikons and Canons and the difference between those and the Leica for my work is night and day, there is no competition at all, I recently had the opportunity mid way through a job I was shooting with the S to use a friends D800, a camera which was my workhorse for a couple of years, I took 10 shots and handed it back, it's just not the same at all in usability which is very important to me as I earn my living with a camera. The final image is all important and the S produces such a fine file but beyond that, the camera just doesn't get in the way, it works and makes me want to use it all the time, that has a huge value to me.

On my latest assignment in West Africa, I had limited access to power whilst out in the desert and under very tough conditions, hot and dusty one minute, hot and torrential rain the next, I had 3 batteries and access to power once every couple of days, I can shoot for 2 days on a single battery, things like that on a commercial job in tough conditions means the camera is worth every penny and more, 2 months of work pays for the camera but the fact that the images are great, the client is happy and I didn't have to think about the camera once means more to me than eye focussing modes and all that stuff, I like simple and reliable, I need nothing more.

Anyway, it's all good fun and there are so many options that there should be something to please most people regardless of budget, desire or ability, get what you like!

Mat

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Leica Review
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2015, 06:49:12 am »

Of course it is emotional. How it handles, how it feels, how it makes you feel (prestige, etc.). I can't afford it, but the first time I handled it, I felt like crying (of joy). Something about how it felt in my hands, the simplicity of design, the weight, elegance, etc. Of course it is emotional.
If you were handed this camera blindfolded with no prior knowledge, would you have felt the same way?  I wonder if the little red Leica symbol is somehow hypnotic?
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