Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: John Camp on August 25, 2015, 12:59:31 pm
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That's one of the prettiest cameras I've ever seen.
I have no doubt that the image quality is about as good as it gets, but then, so is the quality on the new Sony, at what, one-fifth the cost, not even counting the lenses? I really think that purchasers of the Leica could only be doing it so they could use currently owned lenses, or for prestige purposes -- there seems to be few "tool" reasons for doing so.
I note that the viewfinder is great, but I think electronic viewfinders are getting closer to great, and in a couple more generations, will have capabilities beyond what we see in optical viewfinders (and which they already have, in some areas.) A good electronic viewfinder would be particularly useful in a camera like the Leica, where it would really help to reduce size and weight.
On a slightly different topic, there was always a reason for using Tri-X beyond its speed -- it had a particular "look" that spoke of "news" or "action." I think that variety of look is becoming naturally available in camera sensors now, and I generally prefer the somewhat pebbled (or noisy) look of smaller sensor cameras as opposed to the creamy smoothness of medium format -- but that's just my taste, and certainly doesn't suit everyone, or maybe even most people. But the choice is there, sort of like having a fuzz pedal for your guitar.
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Is it a typo or did Leica really change the price to $16,900? Very cool if so, but also expected, way back before the S 007 was even announced I thought it would have been 20k or less and given the competition and now it has to be.
On a side note, if Sony and Pentax keep it up with lenses that are as good as the ones they've made as of late, it won't even have to be "about the glass" anymore, and Pentax can even go up in sensor size as an option.
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Is it a typo or did Leica really change the price to $16,900? Very cool if so, but also expected, way back before the S 007 was even announced I thought it would have been 20k or less and given the competition and now it has to be.
On a side note, if Sony and Pentax keep it up with lenses that are as good as the ones they've made as of late, it won't even have to be "about the glass" anymore, and Pentax can even go up in sensor size as an option.
It's not a typo. Prior to today's announcement B&H listed the S(007) for $25,400. As of this afternoon it has dropped to the new price.
Michael
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I also like texture—that is, grain or luminance noise—in my photos. (And in my music too, whether played or listened to. A bit of reed squawk, single-coil pickup hum or tape hiss never hurt anyone.) Leica's own M8(.2) is a pretty good b&w texture camera when used at ISOs 640 or 1250. (And at ISO 2500 if you back-door the camera into saving 14-bit RAWs and then go through the rigmarole of converting 'em to a format readable by RAW processors.) :)
Gotta agree with Keith re. image quality. It's a given with current gear, provided you know what you're doing (and what you want to do.)
-Dave-
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Never having used or even set eyes on a Leica S of any vintage, I can only take Michael's (or anyone else's) review of the camera at face value. OTOH there's always room for personal preference and typing only for myself I prefer the minimalist approach to the user interface, by a wide margin.
25 buttons on the Pentax 645z?!? I'll reserve my unfiltered comments for private communications. I'd much rather be able to just put my oversized paws on the camera and not have to waste time figuring out "what &%!# button that I hardly ever use got pushed and how do I fix it?" My a7II has more buttons and switches and cr@p than I care for or will use. Leica's minimalist approach is very refreshing.
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25 buttons on the Pentax 645z?!? I'll reserve my unfiltered comments for private communications. I'd much rather be able to just put my oversized paws on the camera and not have to waste time figuring out "what &%!# button that I hardly ever use got pushed and how do I fix it?" My a7II has more buttons and switches and cr@p than I care for or will use. Leica's minimalist approach is very refreshing.
The Pentax 645Z has:
- 21 soft buttons including the directional pad and shutter
- 6 physical selectors including on/off and the mode wheel
- 2 rotary dials
Of these controls, 7~8 buttons and 3 selectors I consider non-essential for regular use.
The thing is that you don't have to use any of the extra buttons, or maybe reassign them to another function, but if a moment pops up where you need to bracket with MUP and a 2-sec delay between shots, the Z can do it in a few clicks whereas with other cameras you have to do programming in the menus while the light changes.
I only wish the Z had a joystick instead of the d-pad, it would make things like selecting focus, LV and image navigation easier.
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I prefer the minimalist approach to the user interface, by a wide margin... Leica's minimalist approach is very refreshing.
I'll second that!
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if a moment pops up where you need to bracket with MUP and a 2-sec delay between shots, the Z can do it in a few clicks whereas with other cameras you have to do programming in the menus while the light changes.
Somehow I don't envision this scenario happening often enough for it to be of value to me.
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I have no doubt that the image quality is about as good as it gets, but then, so is the quality on the new Sony, at what, one-fifth the cost, not even counting the lenses? I really think that purchasers of the Leica could only be doing it so they could use currently owned lenses,
I think that's true, but it goes as much for the Sony as the S. The ability to use legacy, non-native lenses is, IMO, one of the driving forces behind the latest pickup in the A7 series. On the S you retain AF capability via an adapter, it's starting on the Sony and I don't see it stopping. And for those of us who still manual focus, the choice between the two is a moot point.
One thing Michael didn't comment on was the quality/accuracy of focus peaking on the Leica. Michael ?
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Somehow I don't envision this scenario happening often enough for it to be of value to me.
Happened with me a couple of times, even though bracketing is normally something that's almost pointless with this camera. 'Twas just an example anyway, the point is that besides generating visual clutter, I've never felt like an over-abundance of buttons was detrimental to the experience, like I if were going to press something by accident.
It'd have been a negative if crucial functions were spread over all those buttons, but it's really just like most cameras with a few extras.
Incidentally I like keyboards that feature ten-keys and a full row of function keys.
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Complaints about menu layout are pretty much bread and butter in today's world of camera reviews, and it is frankly laughable.
Cameras aren't designed for the first time user, nor should they be. Remember the good old days when 100% of the camera's controls were left completely unexplained, except in the manual? That crazy "stop down preview" lever beside the lens on the Nikon cameras? The average modern camera reviewer would tie himself in knots over that "WHAT DOES IT DO? THERE IS NO MOUSEOVER LIVE HELP TEXT FOR THIS BUTTON! HELP HELP ALSO IT SHOULD BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LENS AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROGRAM IT TO MAKE ME TOAST THIS CAMERA SUCKS"
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Some images and a little video shot with the new S:
http://blog.leica-camera.com/photographers/interviews/max-montgomery-storytelling-with-the-leica-s/
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Complaints about menu layout are pretty much bread and butter in today's world of camera reviews, and it is frankly laughable.
Cameras aren't designed for the first time user, nor should they be. Remember the good old days when 100% of the camera's controls were left completely unexplained, except in the manual? That crazy "stop down preview" lever beside the lens on the Nikon cameras? The average modern camera reviewer would tie himself in knots over that "WHAT DOES IT DO? THERE IS NO MOUSEOVER LIVE HELP TEXT FOR THIS BUTTON! HELP HELP ALSO IT SHOULD BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LENS AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROGRAM IT TO MAKE ME TOAST THIS CAMERA SUCKS"
Are you being deliberately rude and insulting toward me, or are you just off your meds at the moment?
If you feel the need to be an obnoxious ass, please do it somewhere else.
Michael
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Well, Michael, I carefully searched your review first and found no complaints at all about menus in it, and so felt that my general remarks about camera reviews would be correctly interpreted as general, rather than specific.
My apologies.
To clarify, my remarks regarding camera reviews here are general remarks, not specific ones aimed at you.
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Morning
I'm an S user so will naturally be slightly biased towards the camera, having used the 006 commercially for the last year I absolutely love the camera and have invested heavily with now 5 lenses. If the 007 delivers the same image quality but extends the shooting window with decent higher ISO performance then I will be buying. I have shot everything from bands to architecture to personal landscape projects and the only area it falls down is ISO over 400 for images I am happy to deliver to clients.
As with all cameras, familiarity can only come from experience, I like Michaels review, very informative although I think if he had spent time shooting with the 006 he would have felt more comfortable with the new camera with regards to usability, I find that with the camera I only need access to a couple of things, exposure comp I have on top right button so I can use it without removing camera from my eye, ISO is top left but I have it almost always on base and very rarely change, focus on bottom right although I have it almost always on manual with auto set to the rear joystick and bottom left for shooting delay, I flick between single shot or 2 second delay. Apart from formatting cards, they are the only functions I have ever used in the last year, I have never gone in to the menus for anything else. Obviously that is only my way of working but I have never used a camera that is so easy to control, I'm hoping the 007 retains the same characteristics.
Viewfinder is totally amazing on the 006, you can easily manual focus, until you spend time with it you don't realise that things like focus peaking in the viewfinder just aren't necessary, you can see easily what is in focus, I hope personally that this never changes.
As with all cameras, there is no one size fits all, people will love it, people will hate it, it's a business expense to me and one that is easily justified with usability and file output, it's just the perfect camera for me, not that it doesn't have its issues, I had a sensor failure but received a replacement camera from my dealer within 24hrs whilst mine was fixed, I've had a couple of lens issues too, all replaced immediately so whilst you hope they would not ever have a problem at this price, things do go wrong sometimes and I'm interested in how the company respond when it does go wrong. It's heavy for sure, I just returned from 2 months shooting UN troops in Mali, the body and 3 lenses was at times awkward but that pain disappears immediately when you see the files and the invoice is paid!
I'm on the list for a demo camera, hopefully soon and will be buying if it allows me to work better, won't if it doesn't, it's just a tool and I would not own it just because it was a Leica, I have no interest beyond how it works for me.
Anyway, exciting times with so many cameras, I hope others find a solution to their problems that works as well as the S does for mine!
Mat
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I read the review and the question that remains in my mind is "Why would I buy it?"
Whilst the review is good, nothing in it screamed out as being "Buy me because ..." - except (maybe) for the lenses.
Why would someone entering into digital photography want to buy it? Just for the name on the camera and lenses?
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[Are you being deliberately rude and insulting toward me, or are you just off your meds at the moment?
If you feel the need to be an obnoxious ass, please do it somewhere else.]
Michael maybe you should follow your own advice.
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While this is undoubtedly a very nice camera, the only possible users are those with large amounts of disposable income or professionals who can take a tax write off as a business expense. For the rest of us, $16K is way to much for a camera when we can put together a very nice full system for 1/3 to 1/2 that amount. Advances in mirrorless cameras over the last five years are to me the real game changer for those of us who still shoot with DSLRs but are tiring of lugging around a heavy backpack full of gear in the field. To me the dilemma of switching over to a Sony system is a far more interesting issue than this Leica which has an unjustifiable price "for" me.
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I doubt the camera is aimed at someone entering into digital photography but if you really are interested in finding out you could do worse than doing a search here for 'Cooter's and other photographer's many posts on why they use Leica S cameras. Failing that, perhaps a demo or loaner could give you an inkling?
Let me rephase it.
Given $100,000 to spend on any photographic equipment I liked, why would I buy this?
* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)
* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics
* Not a leader in video capability
* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)
I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.
The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.
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Let me rephase it.
Given $100,000 to spend on any photographic equipment I liked, why would I buy this?
* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)
* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics
* Not a leader in video capability
* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)
I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.
The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.
This reminds me of reviewing a camera you've never used.
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I have and have used the S system for many years.
It works for me, just as the Pentax system works for MR.
The wonderful viewfinder and the lenses are what brought me to the system and they will keep me in the system for now.
But in about three years digital viewfinders may be even better.
When I got into the system, I liked that Leica chose their own sensor size and build the camera from the ground up for digital. It seemed to make sense. But I realized even then that by 2018 a mirrorless MF version with smaller lens size might be the next step. But I was taking pictures in 2011.
And I will be taking pictures in 2016 and 2017. The simple controls work well for me. The camera is robust for outdoor or indoor work.
As a business proposition, Leica was smart to drop the price on this next version. Even though I can "write off" my capital purchases, the $24,000 price was blocking my idea of an upgrade, even though it was still much cheaper than a Phase One. I do not consider an S "veblen goods" since it is half way between the Pentax and the Phase. I think Leica realizes that demand for the S requires some sense of value and the $24,000 price was insupportable if they wanted to sell in adequate quantity. The new price will allow me to consider this upgrade and was the biggest news. Thankfully the tether is now USB3.
I understand many very good photographers choose not to spend over $3,000 on a camera much less $7,000 or $16,000, or $40,000, as it is fortunately not a requirement. But please do not assume that a Leica purchaser is "showing off" or "rich". I know S users who find the camera perfect for them and have made a financial sacrifice to purchase the system they find perfect for them. The same could be said about a Phase One, or Canon or Nikon or Sony. When someone asks me what I shoot, I assume they are asking what subjects I photograph. If they follow up and are asking what equipment I use, I admit I use everything from an iPhone to a digital medium format camera. I have had only one person drill down and ask what brand of digital medium format camera I use. He turned out to be interested in purchasing a medium format camera and had real world questions about various systems. Other than the readers of this forum, there are really not too many people who even know the Leica brand exists. So if someone thinks photographers are buying the S for "bling" it really won't work that way since so very few people know what "Leica" is anyway. For the few who do, using a rebranded Panasonic perhaps will be adequate.
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Kudos to Leica for getting that loaner to you so fast.
I think you can stop with the sarcasm. We clearly know your position and you know ours. Let's elevate the conversation please.
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... Why would someone entering into digital photography want to buy it?...
Certainly a nubie shouldn't. Just like you do not buy a Ferrari the moment you get your drivers license (unless you want to total it soon thereafter).
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I think you can stop with the sarcasm...
Why? It is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device. Fun as well.
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I think you can stop with the sarcasm. We clearly know your position and you know ours. Let's elevate the conversation please.
Let's elevate the conversation by using the camera before critiquing it.
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As someone who has long wanted a Leica S2 I am heartened by the recent price drop on used ones to around $5,000 on ebay. When you consider that Leica has adapters for Hasselblad, Mamiya and Pentax 6x7 lenses it makes for a versatile system. There is a used one in my future.
Mike
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As someone who has long wanted a Leica S2 I am heartened by the recent price drop on used ones to around $5,000 on ebay. When you consider that Leica has adapters for Hasselblad, Mamiya and Pentax 6x7 lenses it makes for a versatile system. There is a used one in my future.
Mike
Also Contax 645
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thanks- was just getting ready to add Cantax
Mike
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Let's elevate the conversation by using the camera before critiquing it.
I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance; or perhaps the value/performance metric assuming that Michael's review is accurate, and his reviews are usually pretty good. Some -- probably very few -- people may need specific performance aspects of the Leica that they can't get elsewhere, using "performance" in its widest sense -- they want the ergonomics, they want the viewfinder, or whatever, and that's fine, but most people (not all) need to work through the value equation as well. I'm not trying to insult anyone when I say that I think the performance aspects of the Leica are mostly a chimera. Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead? I doubt it; and after their hands and eyes began to fit the Canon or Nikon, I doubt that you'd see much difference in the photography, either, except that it might be better, because the high-end Japanese cameras seem to have a lot more capabilities.
Back in the film days, I bought new Nikons instead of Pentaxes, even though the Nikons were more expensive, and even though I really believed that the Pentaxes were just as good. Why? Because I'd been a longtime Nikon user, and I simply felt at home with them. If you feel at home with a Leica, I know where you're coming from -- but where you're coming from is a very expensive place. Back in the Nikon days, I wouldn't have paid a $13,000 premium for a camera body, even if it fit me well. I'l learn something else for the $13,000.
JC
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Camera owners are remarkably unwilling to admit that cameras are luxury items. They feel the need to justify the prices.
Why? Just put your man pants on and say "I spent $20K on a camera because I can, and the small but measurable benefits are worth it to me"
You don't normally see BMW owners trying to justify the car on the grounds that it serves their grocery shopping needs. It's about owning an awesome car that's fun to own, that looks nice, and has some small but tangible benefits over a Chevy. It it worth the $50K (or whatever premium you paid) additional? If you're asking that question, you've missed the point.
Is the slightly increased.. whatever.. worth the extra $10K? Who cares? It's a Leica S. It's has tangible benefits, but it is also a luxury item.
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...Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead?
For me the viewfinder is the most important part of the user interface and I detest the viewfinders of the CaNikon cameras, high-end and especially otherwise. I will not use them.
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I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance ...
Well if it is, it's being critiqued by a majority who clearly prefer to theorise rather than relate their own personal experiences. There's been sufficient first hand testimony, in this thread and others, as to both the quality and performance of the S - and the quality isn't just measured by a sensor metric - it's the whole cam, lenses and reliability included.
I'm still waiting for the user report that says 'I owned the cam, tried it, used it, it was c**p and I dumped it.' As far as I know, so are Leica.
As to the price, what's being overlooked is that though the S(007) is indeed £10,750 exc tax / circa €15,000 in the UK/EU. The S-E, the CCD 006 version (I'm told, not yet confirmed) is £8,275 excl tax but inclusive of the 70/2.5 Summarit. That will equate to approximately £5,000 body only - if confirmed. Expect to see an analogous drop in second hand values. Considering that the S is AF compatible with a host of other lenses - for a pioneering camera, IMO, that ain't outrageous.
Onto the price/performance metric. From the limited jpeg shots MR posted in his review, and here I'm only guessing, I see not-as-good-as-expected high ISO performance. I recall Cooter, who is a pro yardstick, saying that he never exceeded ISO800 on the S. From the shots in the review, I don't see the new S much above that - perhaps another stop. So whether you're going to evaluate the cam based on it's latest tech improvements or as compared to the CCD version, will depend on you. Either way my guess is that a lot of photographers will be evaluating both these cams as serious players in today's market, not as Veblen items.
One more thing - Leica, thank you.
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I think what's being critiqued is the price, not the performance; or perhaps the value/performance metric assuming that Michael's review is accurate, and his reviews are usually pretty good. Some -- probably very few -- people may need specific performance aspects of the Leica that they can't get elsewhere, using "performance" in its widest sense -- they want the ergonomics, they want the viewfinder, or whatever, and that's fine, but most people (not all) need to work through the value equation as well. I'm not trying to insult anyone when I say that I think the performance aspects of the Leica are mostly a chimera. Sure, there are professionals who love the camera, but would they give up photography if they had to suffer along with a high-end Canon or Nikon instead? I doubt it; and after their hands and eyes began to fit the Canon or Nikon, I doubt that you'd see much difference in the photography, either, except that it might be better, because the high-end Japanese cameras seem to have a lot more capabilities.
I pretty much agree with John's point here. Michael's reviews/experiences are quite solid and he is clear about his likes and dislikes as well as his past history with various brands. I couldn't ask for anything more. The critical aspect here is the end product, the image. I think it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish outstanding images taken with various high end cameras whose prices range from $2500 to $16,000 in the case of this Leica. There are always going to be preferences in terms of ergonomics, menu layout, etc. but in the end the image matters. We had a huge discussion several years ago in response to a column that Mark Dubovoy posted arguing about the excellence of a particular piece of equipment. What is really needed is some blind testing of real images but I doubt that will ever happen. Clearly we can see differences when things are blown up but that's not the real world by and large. Is there a better value proposition between this Leica and a Nikon D810 in that regard? I doubt it.
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Certainly a nubie shouldn't. Just like you do not buy a Ferrari the moment you get your drivers license (unless you want to total it soon thereafter).
There are very sound reasons why your first car shouldn't be a Ferrari, mainly around safety of the driver and others.
But if a Leica camera shouldn't be your first camera, why should it be your 3rd or 4th?
You're not going to kill anyone with it if you push the shutter button down too hard/long.
Nowhere in Michael's review does he mention that technique is important (as he did with the Nikon D800 review with regard to tripodl, camera movement, etc.)
And the comments here along the lines of "Well, if you haven't used a Leica, of course you won't understand why you would want one." sound like emotional rather than rational arguments.
To compare with the various Phase One reviews, there's always a case made that Phase One have the most megapixels (at least) in their highest end model plus other measurable things. Similarly with Pentax or the Sony A7RII. Even the Pentax 645Z review left me thinking "Yes, I can understand why I would want to buy one of those."
If it is all about the lenses then sure, the lenses should be pricey, but realisticly, camera bodies are commodities. Sure, phones may be turning them into luxury items but commodities they remain. And with cameras such as Sony's A7RII that are being described as "universal cameras", I don't need to buy a Leica S(007) to shoot with Leica S series lenses.
To me the price point and value proposition Leica have in this camera seems to make as much sense as some of the fancy pants Hassleblad cameras.
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... But if a Leica camera shouldn't be your first camera, why should it be your 3rd or 4th?
... sound like emotional rather than rational arguments...
So? Nobody is trying to rationally persuade anyone that it should be one's 3rd or 4th camera. Like nobody is trying to persuade rationally anyone their next car should be a Ferrari.
Of course it is emotional. How it handles, how it feels, how it makes you feel (prestige, etc.). I can't afford it, but the first time I handled it, I felt like crying (of joy). Something about how it felt in my hands, the simplicity of design, the weight, elegance, etc. Of course it is emotional.
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Let me rephase it.
Given $100,000 to spend on any photographic equipment I liked, why would I buy this?
* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)
* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics
* Not a leader in video capability
* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)
I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.
The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.
Let me guess. You shoot a Sony, right? Or are thinking about one?
* It's hard to use (4 "buttons" around a screen?)
I love the simplicity and minimalism of Leica. I don't understand how you can say that a minimal number of buttons equals hard to use... The Leica S is probably one of the most intuitive cameras around.
* Not a leader in any of the IQ metrics
I own the Leica S2, the M9 and the T. The image quality of all 3 is stellar. How that translates into quality benchmarks I am not sure and I couldn't care less. I trust what I see and that is good.
* Not a leader in video capability
Not an issue for me personally. I am curious to see how the new S compares to the rest of the competition but at the end of the day it is not that important to me.
* Limited selection of lenses (longest is 180mm, widest is 24mm)
No offense but with the ability to use Leica S, Contax 645 and Hasselblad H lenses I don't exactly feel at a disadvantage...
I just don't get this camera - especially at its price point.
I can understand that.
The only thing you seem to get for your money is a camera with the word "Leica" on it.
If thinking in stereotypes and platitudes makes you feel any better you should continue to do so.
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... The critical aspect here is the end product, the image...
And missing from most price/performance comparisons is the photographer's personality, quirks, habits and vision. Some prefer buttons & switches galore, some prefer little more than shutter speed, aperture, ISO and focus. Some of us would be frustrated by a minimalist UI and would not do optimal work with such a camera, likewise some of us will not do our best work when more control than desired is available. Make some allowances for individuality and you'll see there's room for all of our preferences even if a blind test of the final image shows no difference.
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I love the simplicity and minimalism of Leica. I don't understand how you can say that a minimal number of buttons equals hard to use... The Leica S is probably one of the most intuitive cameras around.
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It's not me saying that, that's what the review says.
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Ultimately nobody needs to justify why they do or don't want a camera, it's just a camera! If it's too expensive for you then that's fine, if you just don't want it, that's fine, how you define value is entirely up to you! I can state categorically that it makes no difference to me whether anyone else likes it or thinks negatively of me or anyone else who buys it, it just doesn't matter. Obviously Leica is a commercial organisation, it's not a charity so enough people need to buy it to keep it as a viable product but beyond that, I'd actually prefer it if lots of people give it a miss, makes me feel good about my decision.
Performance areas matter to so many people in different ways that there is no universal, for me there is no easier camera to use, it's a fact for me but may not be for others. I have many many thousands of images from Nikons and Canons and the difference between those and the Leica for my work is night and day, there is no competition at all, I recently had the opportunity mid way through a job I was shooting with the S to use a friends D800, a camera which was my workhorse for a couple of years, I took 10 shots and handed it back, it's just not the same at all in usability which is very important to me as I earn my living with a camera. The final image is all important and the S produces such a fine file but beyond that, the camera just doesn't get in the way, it works and makes me want to use it all the time, that has a huge value to me.
On my latest assignment in West Africa, I had limited access to power whilst out in the desert and under very tough conditions, hot and dusty one minute, hot and torrential rain the next, I had 3 batteries and access to power once every couple of days, I can shoot for 2 days on a single battery, things like that on a commercial job in tough conditions means the camera is worth every penny and more, 2 months of work pays for the camera but the fact that the images are great, the client is happy and I didn't have to think about the camera once means more to me than eye focussing modes and all that stuff, I like simple and reliable, I need nothing more.
Anyway, it's all good fun and there are so many options that there should be something to please most people regardless of budget, desire or ability, get what you like!
Mat
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Of course it is emotional. How it handles, how it feels, how it makes you feel (prestige, etc.). I can't afford it, but the first time I handled it, I felt like crying (of joy). Something about how it felt in my hands, the simplicity of design, the weight, elegance, etc. Of course it is emotional.
If you were handed this camera blindfolded with no prior knowledge, would you have felt the same way? I wonder if the little red Leica symbol is somehow hypnotic?
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Camera owners are remarkably unwilling to admit that cameras are luxury items. They feel the need to justify the prices.
Why? Just put your man pants on and say "I spent $20K on a camera because I can, and the small but measurable benefits are worth it to me"
You don't normally see BMW owners trying to justify the car on the grounds that it serves their grocery shopping needs. It's about owning an awesome car that's fun to own, that looks nice, and has some small but tangible benefits over a Chevy. It it worth the $50K (or whatever premium you paid) additional? If you're asking that question, you've missed the point.
Is the slightly increased.. whatever.. worth the extra $10K? Who cares? It's a Leica S. It's has tangible benefits, but it is also a luxury item.
Probably because not one spec of the S007 is superior to the 645Z, so you can't even brag that it's objectively better, only that it's more fun to use (which having used the S I honestly agree with). You are paying a tax to be able to use the S lenses, which themselves are more expensive than any other MF lenses outside of Rodie tech wides. In before "you can adapt lenses from other systems", yes, but that defeats the purpose of having the best.
Accomplished photographers like bcooter could use a phone camera and still get a good shot, to me it seems like he uses an S because he is comfortable with it. At his level, workflow costs more than any camera, but I think you can count the number of people on this forum on one hand who fall into that category, for everyone else they have to balance specs with price instead of thinking solely about the look, otherwise I'd own three MF cameras for different occasions.
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If you were handed this camera blindfolded with no prior knowledge, would you have felt the same way? I wonder if the little red Leica symbol is somehow hypnotic?
When I was first handed a Leica I wasn't blindfolded. I was contemptuous. I believed that the fawning over the camera was nauseating brand worship (the dot wasn't red back then). The camera was under-spec'd, over-priced and within days it was my favorite. A little objectivity goes a long way.
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If you were handed this camera blindfolded with no prior knowledge, would you have felt the same way? I wonder if the little red Leica symbol is somehow hypnotic?
Who is sarcastic now?
I have 40+ years of involvement with photography. I have or had Canons, Pentax LX, Hasselblads, Rollei, and Contaxes. Plenty of "hypnotic" material already there. I used Leica R (friend's) for a week. There was a time in my life when I could afford Leica (that was before digital, when certain cameras started to compete with luxury cars in price). I was actually in store once, handling then-latest R model, with my mind already made up that I should buy it. But after having it in my hands and looking through the viewfinder, I changed my mind. It just wasn't that different or impressive.
So, no, the little red Leica symbol isn't hypnotic for me. But handling the S was a completely different experience.
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Who is sarcastic now?
I have 40+ years of involvement with photography. I have or had Canons, Pentax LX, Hasselblads, Rollei, and Contaxes. Plenty of "hypnotic" material already there. I used Leica R (friend's) for a week. There was a time in my life when I could afford Leica (that was before digital, when certain cameras started to compete with luxury cars in price). I was actually in store once, handling then-latest R model, with my mind already made up that I should buy it. But after having it in my hands and looking through the viewfinder, I changed my mind. It just wasn't that different or impressive.
So, no, the little red Leica symbol isn't hypnotic for me. But handling the S was a completely different experience.
There is no sarcasm at all in my statement. There is a long history of perception bias in many fields including photography. I too have a 40+ year involvement in photography and have used several different cameras over the years. I had a couple of old Leicas (a model III and M3) that on of my father's friends gave me (one of his hobbies was restoring old Leicas) that were fun to use. They took good pictures just as my various Nikons have. Adjusting for sensor size, my key point (which maybe is being missed) is that the all can take good pictures. Look at the final three images in Michael's review comparing the Pentax, the new Sony, and the new Leica. Sure one can see some differences as these are 100% crops and are not real world examples of something what would be hung on a wall or seen in a magazine advert. As Michael notes the Pentax seems to have an advantage over these two, though I imagine 13 x 19 prints of the original image printed up might be very difficult to tell apart. To me photography is about the image and equipment is a means to an end. In the same way a car is a good mode of transportation, a Porsche Cayenne will not get me to the grocery store or out to one of the parks where I do a lot photography any better than my Honda CRV (though it will undoubtedly cost more and be more expensive to maintain). Similarly, my 1927 Conover grand piano plays very well and sounds good in my living room and I doubt a Steinway would be much different other than more expensive.
The bottom line is to each his own. If one derives great pleasure from a Porsche, a Steinway, or a Leica camera that's fine; just don't rule out perception bias when it comes to making choices.
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Perception bias hurts no-one when it involves subjective things like choice of photographic tools. It has a lot to do with why we have preferences in the first place. The harm comes from objectifying such choices or preferences. "This xxx is best for me, therefore it should be best for everyone. And if it's not best for you, there's something wrong with you."
And, in my experience, perception/confirmation bias runs strongly both ways when it comes to Leica. More so than with other photo brands. Some folks get an endorphin kick from owning & (maybe) using Leicas. Other folks get the same kick from disliking & denigrating them.
-Dave-
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And, in my experience, perception/confirmation bias runs strongly both ways when it comes to Leica. More so than with other photo brands. Some folks get an endorphin kick from owning & (maybe) using Leicas. Other folks get the same kick from disliking & denigrating them.
-Dave-
Well said ;)
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So what if the logo is hypnotic?
We're in the land of luxury items. The branding is part of the experience.
Let's say I buy a Leica and I tell you "it works just like a Nikon, I bought it because of the brand, and i paid $16,000 for it, so there" and then you tell me I'm a fool to waste my money on such frivolous things.
I'm gonna look at the CaNikon in your hand and tell you the same thing. Isn't there something better you could have done with your $599.95, or your $4000 or whatever you spent? You're frivolous too. You bought a toy with which, more than likely, you take pictures that nobody cares about a damn except you. Why didn't you invest that money? Or donate to a worthy cause? Because you're frivolous.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2WzQzxuoA
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"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?"
"Oh!" cried Elizabeth, "I am excessively diverted."
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2WzQzxuoA
Love this. Forwarded it to my wife who is an administrator at a college where she has to deal with the same stuff from students.
BTW, the Leica logo has no attraction for me which is why I shoot an M-P ;D
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Black insulation tape is a lot cheaper ;-)
Heheh... next time someone asks me what favorite camera brand is, I'll answer "gaffers tape".
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Some more images here:
http://www.jupitersnake.com/review/leica-s-typ-007-s-007/
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Some more images here:
http://www.jupitersnake.com/review/leica-s-typ-007-s-007/
The Leitz photos' look is unique, no doubt. The MTF curves do not tell the full story.
To note that this 'look' clips the blacks for full effect. The opposite of the current 'trend' of 'recovering the shadows'. :)
Great photos by someone who understands the tool and uses it properly. Well done!
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In terms of an SLR, the S is the best camera I've ever had the pleasure of using. My all time favourite camera (other than technical cameras) is the Mamiya 7, and the S is the only thing I've used that I'd seriously consider using instead for the kind of work I used the Mamiya for – save for the 3:2 format, which I'm not fond of. I had every intention actually to buy an S006 and demoed one twice, thinking I'd get a split prism screen with markings for 4x5 format. Anyway, long story short, I ended up getting a Leaf Credo 60 to use on a Techno as I can't live without in camera movements. When I saw that the 006 was selling for $6KUSD recently, I nearly fell off my chair. For those that appreciate what it offers, it was an absolute steal. I hope this new price for a new 007 is a sign of things to come for the system. Keep the body priced relatively fairly, and charge more for the lenses.