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Author Topic: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?  (Read 81029 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2015, 11:13:26 am »

Hi BC,

My quote may be a bit out of context, but a great way to describe the present state of the art. Many options that deliver great results…

Professional or not is another thing. Cameras don't make images, photographers do.

Systems may have benefits, but cameras are still tools. Some tools are better in some situations than others.

Once the stuff we are using is good enough, we have plenty of choice and stuff used to be good enough for quite some time.

Just to mention, I have been shooting in french places of faith a lot recently with, my Sony A7rII. I have a Canon 24/3.5 TSE with a Metabones adapter that is sort of not very reliable. At one place I couldn't use a tripod. So, T&S is great but using high ISO, image stabilisation, HDR and software corrections may be a better alternative than pressing the T&S in hand held service.

New technology gives us options.

I have shot with things from 6 MP DSLRs to 39 MP MFD and now 42 MP Sony. On the Sony the judgement is still out, even if I would say so far quite good. But, what I have found is that I have made a lot of my best pictures with a 12 MP APS-C camera.

Subject and execution is sort of more important than the technology used.

Best regards
Erik



…With digital it's a formatless world. …
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Hulyss

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2015, 11:49:38 am »


With digital it's a formatless world.    I get a kick out of the FF vs. almost medium format arguments, because in a years time I shoot stills and motion imagery with sensors that are 4:3 medium format, FF 35, aps C, micro 43, Super 35 (with three REDS) and whatever size the Leica S2 is.

i'm kind of past thinking about it, in other words I never think "ok a 35mm in super 35 is really a 50mm is FF, or 75 mm on the S2.   

Now it seems the Leica 007 is not a top end motion camera like a RED or Arri, but I don't think that was the plan.  I think the idea of this camera is to be a still camera that allows a lifestyle or wedding/event photographer to shoot some footage with one kit, because if your primarily a still photographer, especially in advertising imagery, about every project someone is gonna ask if you can shoot a "little" video.    Now little video to me means free, (and free isn't a great business plan), but keeping a client happy is.

So video from an 007 is a smart idea.

What I do think about in still and motion is will the camera do what I need, be reliable, have a heafty codec, or still file that allows a professional workflow.

The only reason I mentioned the C300 is we travel a lot between studios.  I keep REDs in two cities, but always have Canons with us for stills and some motion.    As a camera I love the Canon 70D for motion (not stills) because for quick lifestyle and fast moving setups, it autofocuses so well it's insanely good.

The problem with the 70D is it has a weak 8 bit file that is very difficult to grade.   If the C300 would focus like that cheapo 70D it would be useful, but I have these thoughts about new cameras and usually walk away because there is no free lunch.

Now I might buy a Sony A7SII for the stabilization and low light and throw a medium zoom on it, though I have to admit that my style doesn't really work with Sonys, so  . . .

I have the 4k Scarlet set up right now with a Canon mount so it's not that big of a deal to use it and best of all it's paid for.



IMO BC

Hello BC,

I think it is sad that RED can't use their full APS-H format as read out, instead of cropping. In the same time, I found someone in UK who play a bit with Medium format lenses on custom cameras, maybe you know him ?

http://www.richardgaleoptics.uk/forbes70-large-format/

As usual it is a pleasure to read you :)

EDIT: Have you tried the Canon XC10 ?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 11:52:41 am by Hulyss »
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D Fuller

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #122 on: September 20, 2015, 01:14:34 pm »


I think it is sad that RED can't use their full APS-H format as read out, instead of cropping.


Huey's, I'm not sure where this idea comes from, but it's not true. Epics can record the full sensor at 90+ fps. Even the Scarlet can record the full 6K sensor, albeit only at 12fps. But a Scarlet can record the full sensor to an external recorder if you want to do that.
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Hulyss

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2015, 05:57:45 am »

Pardon me if I get it wrong. RED is kind of complicated to understand since they have a lot of different hardware and different sensors. They even have MF sensors ... and communication is not that fluid around this. There is different scarlet cameras (4 different models and 3 different sensors...) and different epic cameras (4 different models with 4 different sensors). I'm sure there is more as the date of today... Hard to understand the whole picture.
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razrblck

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2015, 09:52:02 am »

What's funny though is all the places we go I've never seen anyone but me shooting with an S Leica, though I see REDs all the time, literally.     

I was in Covent Garden Friday buying hard drives (I think I'm always buying hard drives) and rounded the corner there was an Epic on sticks with a small crew just shooting away.

Two days earlier I came out of a restaurant in Shoreditch and saw a RED mounted on dolly being rolled out of a truck.

I've noticed the change as well, but (at least in southern Italy) RED cameras are so rare I've never seen one in the wild. I have seen plenty of BM Cinema Cameras used for national TV series (one of those was filmed in part right around my block). Up to a couple years ago really small productions used to be done on Canon 5Ds or 7Ds, but all these new cameras at affordable prices have really changed the landscape.
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Ken R

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2015, 12:07:21 pm »


Hulyss I'm not saying you, though it's interesting that RED and Leica are the two brands that forum folk love to hate.

Arri guys usually really, really hate RED and RED can be a complicated company to navigate but in my use their cameras have overall been excellent and they changed the way the professional industry viewed cinema cameras, much like Leica changed still photography eons ago.

Prior to RED, few if any actually owned a full bore 35mm film camera and cinema digital cameras were stratospheric in price.

For some reason Leica is always talked about as the hedge fund guy or dentist's camera.    I never saw it that way given the history of Leica, but anything can be turned into a toy, depending on the user.

What's funny about both the Leica S007 and the REDs is they are not the cheapest of the segment, but surely not the most expensive.   Price out an Epic vs. an Arri, or a Leica cmos vs. a Phase One Cmos and the difference in price is very noticeable, though nobody complains about Arri and nobody calls Phase One a luxury bobble.

I have to admit, the scarlet is the third cinema camera I go to.  (Maybe that's why I didn't buy an Epic). 

I love my R1's and the Scarlet is just something I use, maybe that's why I haven't smoothed it out, because right now it's kind of like shooting with a belt sander. 

(in fact we bought the fan kit for the Scarlet and I've yet to install it).

The form factor of Leica S is obviously the opposite as it's so elegant and everything feels so right, but both companies seem to make cameras people just love or just hate, with few in between.

What's funny though is all the places we go I've never seen anyone but me shooting with an S Leica, though I see REDs all the time, literally.     

I was in Covent Garden Friday buying hard drives (I think I'm always buying hard drives) and rounded the corner there was an Epic on sticks with a small crew just shooting away.

Two days earlier I came out of a restaurant in Shoreditch and saw a RED mounted on dolly being rolled out of a truck.


IMO

BC

Most haters of Leica and PhaseOne hate on the cost/price. Not the actual cameras/systems. A lot of the haters have basically no use/ownership experiences with those products (specially the more recent ones). Most cite that there are lower cost options that are "better", at least for them. Also the typical haters work by themselves and basically have zero professional, client supervised, photography work experience. A lot of the design / features of the PhaseOne (and even the Leica) are centered to make that type of work more reliable and better. I mean, the LEMO connectors on the Leica are significantly better than any connector on a DSLR. The same can be said of the PhaseOne tethering performance with C1pro and CapturePilot.
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eronald

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2015, 07:55:08 pm »

J,

 I don't think RED prices are bad. If you get paid international campaign rates, then RED is probably the least of your expense points.  The real issue is whether the rest of the world -apart from some elite guys like you- gets paid enough so they can afford these prices.

 I've seen this situation before, in the 60s and 70s - the Germans made excellent cameras but most people in Europe and the US simply couldn't afford them. The Japanese manufacturers saw the demand, adopted a long term view, and took over the market. And actually, their products were quite usable.  If Canon and Sony try to keep the pro market around $10K somebody is going to take it away from them.

Edmund



Hulyss I'm not saying you, though it's interesting that RED and Leica are the two brands that forum folk love to hate.

Arri guys usually really, really hate RED and RED can be a complicated company to navigate but in my use their cameras have overall been excellent and they changed the way the professional industry viewed cinema cameras, much like Leica changed still photography eons ago.

Prior to RED, few if any actually owned a full bore 35mm film camera and cinema digital cameras were stratospheric in price.

For some reason Leica is always talked about as the hedge fund guy or dentist's camera.    I never saw it that way given the history of Leica, but anything can be turned into a toy, depending on the user.

What's funny about both the Leica S007 and the REDs is they are not the cheapest of the segment, but surely not the most expensive.   Price out an Epic vs. an Arri, or a Leica cmos vs. a Phase One Cmos and the difference in price is very noticeable, though nobody complains about Arri and nobody calls Phase One a luxury bobble.

I have to admit, the scarlet is the third cinema camera I go to.  (Maybe that's why I didn't buy an Epic). 

I love my R1's and the Scarlet is just something I use, maybe that's why I haven't smoothed it out, because right now it's kind of like shooting with a belt sander. 

(in fact we bought the fan kit for the Scarlet and I've yet to install it).

The form factor of Leica S is obviously the opposite as it's so elegant and everything feels so right, but both companies seem to make cameras people just love or just hate, with few in between.

What's funny though is all the places we go I've never seen anyone but me shooting with an S Leica, though I see REDs all the time, literally.     

I was in Covent Garden Friday buying hard drives (I think I'm always buying hard drives) and rounded the corner there was an Epic on sticks with a small crew just shooting away.

Two days earlier I came out of a restaurant in Shoreditch and saw a RED mounted on dolly being rolled out of a truck.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 08:03:23 pm by eronald »
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D Fuller

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2015, 11:02:56 pm »

Pardon me if I get it wrong. RED is kind of complicated to understand since they have a lot of different hardware and different sensors. They even have MF sensors ... and communication is not that fluid around this. There is different scarlet cameras (4 different models and 3 different sensors...) and different epic cameras (4 different models with 4 different sensors). I'm sure there is more as the date of today... Hard to understand the whole picture.

Just to clarify a bit, have been only three sensors over the entire life of RED cameras: the original Mysterium from about 2008. That was replaced by the Mysterium-X (commonly called MX) in 2011 or so, and the current, Dragon sensor was introduced in late 2013. Dragon and MX are both currently sold by RED. Oh yes, there are also Monochrome versions of both current sensors sold only in Epic bodies, so i guess that does qualify as four different sensors.

I'm only aware of two models of Scarlet--MX and Dragon. Epic has more, but the body differences are mostly about weight--Carbon fiber for gimbal use and the like. And there is a new Weapon camera model that uses the Dragon sensor. Some time around the end of the year it will be available with an 8K version of the Dragon sensor that is larger than 35mm full frame in one dimension, but I don't think it comes near to qualifying as medium format.

I'm sure Red's lineup is confusing if you're not paying attention to it, but I don't see why anybody who's not actively in the market for a digital cinema camera would be paying attention to it. Honestly, though, I don't really see how it's any more confusing than Phase One/Leaf's line of backs, for example. Right now digital back.com lists 7 Leaf backs and 10 Phase backs, plus cameras and accessories and referbs -- all stuff you'd expect, really.

But I'll grant you that if you try to figure any of that out via Reduser.com, communicaton is not that clear.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 11:13:24 pm by D Fuller »
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Bo Dez

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2015, 05:40:14 am »

Hating only means something to the hater and usually stems from naivety, jealously or ignorance. Once you realise that you just switch off to it, because it really is not worthy of attention.
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Hulyss

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Re: Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2015, 08:13:45 am »


Hulyss I'm not saying you, though it's interesting that RED and Leica are the two brands that forum folk love to hate.


I never really seen that much hate toward RED and the only Leica hate I've seen was toward M users not S users. Personally I absolutely love RED products and would like being able to buy a Scarlet, one day, but the big sensor one for stills, also. What I find very cool from RED is the Scarlet because it lower a bit the price to enter the house. Before scarlet, for an Indy producer wanting to own his own material, RED was just a dream.

Any one here know anything about RICOH being "close" to RED ?? Just a rumour I want to confirm or destroy.
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