Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?

[eronald]

A quote of Blagojevician incisiveness! 

(I think the portrait of the red haired kid is way too saturated, but the RAWs are great to play with.)

--Matt

The colors look a bit off, but fixable. The greenery looks very nice, reflexions off water too. I cannot find anything seriously bad to say about these pictures, try as I may. But I'm sure we will find some issues in due course

Edmund

[Bo Dez]

I think the S is probably the first real contender for an all rounder Pro camera. Which is ironic coming from such a niche company like Leica.

[Theodoros]

As I said before, it is quite obvious that Leica was after a very special sensor for this product... A sensor that would be the base for all the group's products and that would be able to successfully compare with the best sensors that competition products would possibly offer, I believe the delay had to do with maximizing the performance of the sensor and of the new processor they are using for it... Fingers crossed, when there will be a fully dedicated software to develop the files, the results should be jaw dropping to the extend that there will be a new reference for high end photography. In a few months, when Sinar will release the new backs based on the very same sensor and perhaps release a new version of their software to support these backs (obviously S007 too), the group (Leica/Sinar) should seriously challenge any alternative marketing choice aimed to any different photographic task.

[eronald]

I think the S is probably the first real contender for an all rounder Pro camera. Which is ironic coming from such a niche company like Leica.

It's really amazing how Leica managed to create a completely new body and lens range and turn it into a contender.  Also, the Leica is a nice *camera*, not a kludgy box with a screen and a lens; it could do with a few more Contax-style dials, though.

Edmund

[S@W]

I think the DPR files leave a lot to be desired: shutter speed too slow for good sharpness, underexposed, poorly processed in LR, some f11 files that don't illustrate the S lenses drawing potential.
But the young boy portrait is nice, underexposed by 0.3 to 0.5ev but nice, with a very good sharpness on the eyes.
Better processed in LR and using the embedded camera profile instead of the Adobe one it already gives a beautiful output.
High iso does look great (1600) and good (3200) too.
Finally a CMOS sensor that can rival surpass a CCD one, maybe

[ErikKaffehr]

My firm opinion after shooting both CCDs and CMOS since 2005 is that it is simply BS, sorry...

Best regards
Erik

I think the DPR files leave a lot to be desired: shutter speed too slow for good sharpness, underexposed, poorly processed in LR, some f11 files that don't illustrate the S lenses drawing potential.
But the young boy portrait is nice, underexposed by 0.3 to 0.5ev but nice, with a very good sharpness on the eyes.
Better processed in LR and using the embedded camera profile instead of the Adobe one it already gives a beautiful output.
High iso does look great (1600) and good (3200) too.
Finally a CMOS sensor that can rival surpass a CCD one, maybe

[Bo Dez]

The Leica S, to me is certainly the most exciting camera at the moment. I'm also excited what happens with Sinar.

If the S was 60MP I'd more inclined to jump in. Or if there was a 70mm Summilux-S that shared aesthetic characteristics of the Noctilux (being equiv to f1.1 in 135 FF) I would jump in right now. I need medium format but I also need and want the aesthetic characteristics of my M Noctilux and Summilux lenses and while the current Summicron and Summarit designs are close they are not quite the same. That said, the 100 Summicron is a very exciting lens. Either way the S system is suddenly shaping up to be a great contender and I'm really interested to see what they come up with lenses.

Or I would also really consider a new Contax 645 Design and 60-80MP full frame 645 Back with fast Modern Zeiss Lenses with leaf shutters. The rationale of this being the aesthetics of Zeiss lenses on the larger sensor.

[S@W]

I should have written "a CMOS vs CCD camera system instead of sensor" as I have no idea which role the sensor technology plays in the more natural and pleasing look of the CCD based cameras.
Made enough tests with my modest eyes but also with professional eyes to have this firm opinion.

The S007 could maybe soon demonstrate that this so called (cold...) 'CCD look' only comes from the camera maker choices in the technical specifications they want to reach and profiling rather than in the technology they are using.

[Manoli]

My firm opinion after shooting both CCDs and CMOS since 2005 is that it is simply BS, sorry...

I'm not fundamentally going to disagree with you, Erik - you, Bart and a few others have explained the science part of it plus David Farkas ran a 'test' where no one could reliably differentiate between a CCD (M9) and a CMOS (M240) with any consistency. There were a few isolated cases, though - more the exception than the rule.

Nevertheless, I 'm still amazed at the skin tones and texture from my M8 and non-ASPH vintage Summicrons, even today, when compared to anything I've managed to achieve with CMOS.

M

[torger]

Got to a calibrated screen and started to look at some samples. I like the skin tones in this review:
http://www.jupitersnake.com/review/leica-s-typ-007-s-007/
but I suspect they may be adjusted, as the same review says the JPEGs are not so good.

The DP review image gallery is, well, quite dreadful if I dare to use such strong words. What's up with the over-saturation? Haven't tried the raws.

Then I've looked at this:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/09/leica-s-test/
the images look quite edited, but the same overall color look as in DP review is there, too warm, too saturated.

So sure I think you can get good colors out of this camera, like from any modern camera if you have some post-processing skill, but the default look seems pretty bad to me. But I guess I don't have the same refined taste as Leica users :-)

Some cameras get a lot attention on the net, others not so much. What about the H5D-50c for example? Without any personal experience of that particular Hasselblad model (my own is H4D-50) I dare to say that the default look out of Phocus is a ton better than what I've seen here from Leica S.

[Theodoros]

Got to a calibrated screen and started to look at some samples. I like the skin tones in this review:
http://www.jupitersnake.com/review/leica-s-typ-007-s-007/
but I suspect they may be adjusted, as the same review says the JPEGs are not so good.

The DP review image gallery is, well, quite dreadful if I dare to use such strong words. What's up with the over-saturation? Haven't tried the raws.

Then I've looked at this:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/09/leica-s-test/
the images look quite edited, but the same overall color look as in DP review is there, too warm, too saturated.

So sure I think you can get good colors out of this camera, like from any modern camera if you have some post-processing skill, but the default look seems pretty bad to me. But I guess I don't have the same refined taste as Leica users :-)

Some cameras get a lot attention on the net, others not so much. What about the H5D-50c for example? Without any personal experience of that particular Hasselblad model (my own is H4D-50) I dare to say that the default look out of Phocus is a ton better than what I've seen here from Leica S.

It's too early to come to conclusions like that... I use a CF-39MS back for single shot, which is quite similar when developed with phocus (for single shot) as your H4-50 and I do agree that color accuracy is quite good out of the box (if ETTR), but here we are talking about files that are processed without dedicated software yet... Files from CMOS sensors are expected to be a bit oversaturated (as past experience says), but this is about the easiest  to correct when developing, the point is if one would have to work excessively to achieve the looks he wants or not... and this is too early to be judged yet. Never the less, Sinar has the tradition of offering the most accurate color "out of the box" (even for single shot files) to customers and its difficult to believe that Leica has ignored this past experience...

[S@W]

This is the boy picture from DPR (underexposed and sat :10 / vib:10)



The raw file now processed a bit more exposed and sat + vib set to 0.
Other white balance, embedded profile instead of Adobe profile. Classic contrast, etc.



A crop from the latter:

[Theodoros]

I choose the most demanding file for DR out of the DPR files... What I post is no where near the maximum of DR one can achieve (which is really impressive), it is rather my idea of how the final image should look...

[BernardLanguillier]

I choose the most demanding file for DR out of the DPR files... What I post is no where near the maximum of DR one can achieve (which is really impressive), it is rather my idea of how the final image should look...

With all due respect, I don't see anything impressive here.

The same scene shot in bright sun-light would probably have at least 2 stops more DR in it, and even that can easily be brought to the same level of detail/noise in the trunk with a modern DSLR without burning any highlight.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JV]

Some cameras get a lot attention on the net, others not so much. What about the H5D-50c for example?

Unrealistic pricing might have something to do with it...

[Ken R]

Unrealistic pricing might have something to do with it...

The main problem with that camera is not really the camera itself but the price. It is a huge deterrent (to a lot of people) for purchasing (or even looking into them) that and other Medium Format Digital Camera Systems. Most actual owners/users of MFD systems are quite happy, after purchasing and using the system for a while.

I for one am one of them. Right now there are a LOT of lower priced alternatives in MFD. For those who want something different than the typical DSLRs it is really worth looking into them.

CMOS has really energized MFD in general.

[JV]

More on the S007:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/leica-s-typ-007-review/
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/09/my-photographic-adventure-through-iceland-with-the-leica-s-typ007/

[holyhikaru]

The images seem to be very saturated as the other review.

[eronald]

The face texture on the boy looks red, saturated, but good, no texture loss, no serious burnout.

The Iceland pictures look too HDR'y and oversaturated, but that can easily be fixed by some clipping/desaturation.

The way the lenses draw looks sharp and smooth.

We need more imagery, but what is being shown now looks as if it has no serious faults - to me. I think Leica has now just about sussed electronic still imaging.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

I can't stop thinking how perfect the Contax 645 series of lenses looks on the S-007 for DSLR use... The 45-90 Vario Sonnar has a perfect AOV of what a 36-72mm would present on a DSLR (the traditional standard zoom lens)... the 140mm f2.8 is the analog of 112mm - perfect for long portraiture, while the 80mm AOV at 64mm 35mm respective is perfect for close portraiture... The superb 120APO micro would give 96mm respective AOV and the 210 at 167mm respective AOV of a 35mm camera is just right for telephoto, while the 35mm a great 28mm WA of which the 24mm Leica lens sounds a perfect supplement to those that want to go wider... The 45mm/2.8 shows the same AOV as a 36mm on a DSLR.

Clearly, Contax 645 users would need no DSLR system along their existing MF if they would invest on a Leica S-007... In reality they could have a new MFDB and get rid of their DSLRs completely thus funding their new MFDB, but would considerably shrink the bulk of equipment they have to carry while boosting quality at the same time...