Leica S007 coming, how Sinar, Hassy & Contax are affected? ...competition?

[Theodoros]

 I believe the (now undeniable) delay of the new CMos Leica S, is because Leica wants to make sure that image quality will surpass all of competition performance and given the reasonable pricing (if compared to competition) it will cause even more headaches... I also expect the new sensor to replace the existing ones on the Sinarbacks (at a larger size) and even expect Sinar to reintroduce self contained backs based on it... Maybe a new MF platform that will take the Sinarbacks on and will "bridge" the two systems makes more sense than ever now, or maybe a resurrection of an older platform makes even more sense.

It seems that the (fully dedicated) adapters for Hasselblad H or Contax 645 lenses on Leica S may probably be a pre-calculated move that allows people to bridge Sinarbacks  with Leica S by keeping their existing lens systems. As it looks, it won't surprise me if C645 will be resurrected in the near future, or if Leica invests on Hasselblad... I think either would be preferred than starting a new platform...

One thing is for sure, if Leica passes the new sensor on to Sinarbacks (which it will surely do) and introduces a new MF 645 platform, a photographer will be able to stay within the system no matter how advanced he would like to be, since he will be offered all his DSLR system does, all his MF studio camera does and all his view camera does, yet sharing the minimum of lenses or digital sensors and be at the edge of technology at the same time... I wouldn't sleep well, if I was the competition these days...

[eronald]

I believe the (now undeniable) delay of the new CMos Leica S, is because Leica wants to make sure that image quality will surpass all of competition performance and given the reasonable pricing (if compared to competition) it will cause even more headache

If Leica believe in low prices now that average German wages are lower than Japan's, I for one will applaud them

Edmund

[BernardLanguillier]

I believe the (now undeniable) delay of the new CMos Leica S, is because Leica wants to make sure that image quality will surpass all of competition performance and given the reasonable pricing (if compared to competition) it will cause even more headaches...

For anyone with real world engineering knowledge, it seems very unlikely that a 3 months delay is the result of a change of engineering targets (in this case the potential image quality of the sensor).

It is a lot more likely to be related to an inability of the produced parts to meet the initial engineering targets.

This doesn't mean that the 007 will not be excellent, but I would very surprised if this delay was the result of an increased ambition at Leica in terms of targeted image quality. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Bernard,

I would say I agree with what you say. Just to add, the CMOSIS based sensor is a device very different from the Kodak sensor used in the older cameras. With live view and video recording there may be issues with cooling. Another cause of delay may be that SG may be slow in producing the sensor devices.

On the other hand, the basic design used in the M(240) is intended to handle lenses with large beam angles and that could benefit technical cameras. Would Leica plan to introduce some new technology with Sinar, I would be expecting them to show a road map.

At this stage, I would say that Leica is selling to enthusiasts, but their marketing is really not very good. Without a road map, no planning is possible.

Another observation is that with Leica we have to little and to late. That doesn't mean it cannot make excellent pictures and the camera itself may be quite compelling.

Best regards
Erik

For anyone with real world engineering knowledge, it seems very unlikely that a 3 months delay is the result of a change of engineering targets (in this case the potential image quality of the sensor).

It is a lot more likely to be related to an inability of the produced parts to meet the initial engineering targets.

This doesn't mean that the 007 will not be excellent, but I would very surprised if this delay was the result of an increased ambition at Leica in terms of targeted image quality. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Theodoros]

If Leica believe in low prices now that average German wages are lower than Japan's, I for one will applaud them

Edmund

None can call Leica S prices as being "low"... Still, they are better than direct competition if one takes into account that the system includes the camera and that no additional DSLR system to retain portability is required.

[Theodoros]

For anyone with real world engineering knowledge, it seems very unlikely that a 3 months delay is the result of a change of engineering targets (in this case the potential image quality of the sensor).

It is a lot more likely to be related to an inability of the produced parts to meet the initial engineering targets.

This doesn't mean that the 007 will not be excellent, but I would very surprised if this delay was the result of an increased ambition at Leica in terms of targeted image quality. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

Cheers,
Bernard

Since most of the (mechanical) engineering parts are common with previous S models and the major change is the sensor and its processor, it seems to me that the delay is more related with maximizing sensor performance as such.

[Theodoros]

Hi Bernard,

I would say I agree with what you say. Just to add, the CMOSIS based sensor is a device very different from the Kodak sensor used in the older cameras. With live view and video recording there may be issues with cooling. Another cause of delay may be that SG may be slow in producing the sensor devices.

On the other hand, the basic design used in the M(240) is intended to handle lenses with large beam angles and that could benefit technical cameras. Would Leica plan to introduce some new technology with Sinar, I would be expecting them to show a road map.

At this stage, I would say that Leica is selling to enthusiasts, but their marketing is really not very good. Without a road map, no planning is possible.

Another observation is that with Leica we have to little and to late. That doesn't mean it cannot make excellent pictures and the camera itself may be quite compelling.

Best regards
Erik

Actually the fact that same pixel count as in M-240 is used doesn't mean that the new sensor is "based on the M-240", it seems to me that Leica favors 6 micron pixel sizes as they insist to use it on all their S models up to now. Of course "previous knowledge" is always taken into account when new designs appear in the market, but it is more likely that the new sensor will be the base for a future M-240 sensor replacement than the opposite happening. Lets not forget that Sinar also uses 6 micron pixel pitch on their current eXact and 86H backs... Certainly, using one only basic design as a base to create a whole series of different size sensors will be an extra benefit (cost effective too) for Leica/Sinar and that, may provide an additional advantage with respect to competition.

[BernardLanguillier]

Considering the cost of devrlopment of these sensors, odds are that the still capability of the 007 is very close to the of the M240 with most investements having been focused on the video part.

I would be very surprised if the delay were not due to some issue with video, probably on the software side.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Considering the cost of devrlopment of these sensors, odds are that the still capability of the 007 is very close to the of the M240 with most investements having been focused on the video part.

I would be very surprised if the delay were not due to some issue with video, probably on the software side.

Cheers,
Bernard

3 months late on a tech product is minimal - a single turnaround on an Asic revision would explain that.
In any case the fire-sale on the existing S stock will doubtless make for a larger user base on what is recognized as a good but overpriced system.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

Considering the cost of devrlopment of these sensors, odds are that the still capability of the 007 is very close to the of the M240 with most investements having been focused on the video part.

I would be very surprised if the delay were not due to some issue with video, probably on the software side.

Cheers,
Bernard

Oh, I believe you'll be very surprised indeed! My Opinion is that cost developments are related to the expected sales and the project success, with this product Leica is very ambitious and many will be surprised with the market sales of it... To start with, there is the huge market of the better wedding photographers that will invest on the camera, then there is some other wedding photographers buying it just to fool people as being among the better wedding pros... This will be very easy for Leica to achieve, because C645 is what wedding pros are using with film along side their DSLRs... With Leica they will cover their investment only by selling their DSLR system (which will become useless) and use their Leica instead with their C645 lenses.

Video ability OTOH, is very important with wedding photographers, but it is very important for Leica too as to have a camera that will support their pro cinema lenses. I guess, it all has to do on how one looks at a certain camera  platform system... If he looks at it as an expensive DSLR for dentists to use on a Safari instead of killing Lions in Zimbabwe, then they may be right... but if one approaches a system with respect to the solutions provided, or the integration of it with respect to other equipment he is using (or plans to invest on) then it's different... I guess, if one buys a DF & IQ180 "to shoot wonderful landscapes" that's one way on looking at things, but if one needs to use as little as possible with the best possible results accompanied by optimum solutions, then the POV (and benefit from costs related) changes dramatically....

[sgilbert]

I'm pretty sure the delay is the result of chemtrails. 

[Theodoros]

It seems like it won't be "2nd quarter of 2015" either....

[Aphoto]

Oh, I believe you'll be very surprised indeed! My Opinion is that cost developments are related to the expected sales and the project success, with this product Leica is very ambitious and many will be surprised with the market sales of it... To start with, there is the huge market of the better wedding photographers that will invest on the camera, then there is some other wedding photographers buying it just to fool people as being among the better wedding pros... This will be very easy for Leica to achieve, because C645 is what wedding pros are using with film along side their DSLRs... With Leica they will cover their investment only by selling their DSLR system (which will become useless) and use their Leica instead with their C645 lenses.

Just out of curiosity:
Why do better wedding photographers need a camera like a Leica S007? There clients are no photo-professionals at all. And even if they wanted very large prints, they wouldn't see the difference.

[AreBee]

Adrian,

Why do better wedding photographers need a camera like a Leica S007? There clients are no photo-professionals at all. And even if they wanted very large prints, they wouldn't see the difference.

Reply #52

[Theodoros]

Just out of curiosity:
Why do better wedding photographers need a camera like a Leica S007? There clients are no photo-professionals at all. And even if they wanted very large prints, they wouldn't see the difference.

They don't "need" one... they'll get one for several reasons! Here is a few:
1. Most of them use a Contax 645 with film for a part of their work and they'll be able to share the lenses which will shrink the equipment they have to carry a lot since using Leica S007 with a "C" adapter will be (almost) like having another C645 body but with DSLR feeling and an MFDB on it...
2. They'll be able to finance the body by only selling their DSLR systems...
3. They'll be able to have video ability using the very same lenses.
4. For prestige reasons... for many customers "if he has a Leica, he is even better than the better ones"... that, (if correctly marketed) can both expand the annual number of customers but make them able to rise (further) prises and justify that rise... Add to it, that they'll do less film shooting.

Most of all though it is the equipment shrinkage... Believe it or not, having only one bag with a 35, 80, 140 & possibly the 45-90 Vario, or the 45, or the 55 and be able to just add another (digital) body in the bag, which is quite compact too... is a real blessing for them! Particularly if it allows them to do all Digital, low light and video shooting with only four lenses!

[Bo Dez]

While some of this would be great, my long tortured skeptical eyes can't see it happening. I would love to be wrong of corse and I would die to see a Contax 645 reemerge for the modern age.

I think this will happen:

Leica S will stay at a paltry 37.5MP and take an extra 6 months.
Sinar will continue to do not much.
Contax 645 will sadly stay the way of the dodo.
Sony users will say how much better their a7r is to anything else.
Hasselblad users will think about selling up for the Phase.
Phase Owners will still complain but not much will change in the next decade.
We will all have to cobble together favourite lenses with not so favourite bodies, at great expense, and end up with convoluted and compromised systems that are annoying to use.
We will all be broke, except for Sony users.
Everyone else who is not a photographer will say - "I can't see the difference"

[Theodoros]

While some of this would be great, my long tortured skeptical eyes can't see it happening. I would love to be wrong of corse and I would die to see a Contax 645 reemerge for the modern age.

I think this will happen:

Leica S will stay at a paltry 37.5MP and take an extra 6 months.
Sinar will continue to do not much.
Contax 645 will sadly stay the way of the dodo.
Sony users will say how much better their a7r is to anything else.
Hasselblad users will think about selling up for the Phase.
Phase Owners will still complain but not much will change in the next decade.
We will all have to cobble together favourite lenses with not so favourite bodies, at great expense, and end up with convoluted and compromised systems that are annoying to use.
We will all be broke, except for Sony users.
Everyone else who is not a photographer will say - "I can't see the difference"

 

OK... but there are still three things that don't make sense with your future vision...

1.Will Leica continue to pay for Dalsa sensors as to use on Sinarbacks while they will have their own of the same resolution?
2. How Leica will expand Sinarback sales if they don't have a platform to use them on? ...they didn't buy Sinar to loose money, ...did they?
3. How does Hasselblad survives if Leica won't buy the camera platform and use Sinar to make the backs?

IMO, (other than wedding photographers) Sinar made the "C" adapter only to achieve a better price when buying Hasselblad... only to have an alternative choice... but legs do break when planning and thus PLAN B sometimes become PLAN A... Especially if rights of Contax don't involve Kyocera anymore after the 31th of this December....

[Kumar]

Sinar will continue to do not much.

Sinar's marketing email yesterday spoke of "major investments" in R&D, with a new Sinarback and a new camera on the way.
http://sinarphotographyag.cmail1.com/t/r-e-fydhkdt-aududikkk-r/

Kumar

[EricWHiss]

Very curious to see their new view camera and back.

I have been playing with one of their arTec cameras the last days and this is a really well thought out and nicely built camera.

[Chris Livsey]

The Leica CEO has recently replied, on line, to set of questions from members of the rangefinder forum.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=150625&page=1

I wouldn't rush over, it's the usual many words little content and probably qualifies as a TL DNR (Toolong, did not read).

Some choice extracts though:

"Please understand that we can’t talk about future product roadmap plans in public. "

Really? So how come Sony, Fuji, Olympus and Pentax do so?

http://donsphoto.com/blog/2015/02/so...-lens-roadmap/
http://donsphoto.com/blog/2015/02/pe...-lens-roadmap/
http://donsphoto.com/blog/2015/02/ol...-lens-roadmap/
http://donsphoto.com/blog/2015/02/fu...-lens-roadmap/

" Others may “produce” products, Leica is “manufacturing”. "

"Retail is an experience and a major part in the consumer journey only Leica can provide consumers with."