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Author Topic: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?  (Read 25801 times)

JB Rasor

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Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« on: July 29, 2015, 03:50:19 am »

Forgive my basic question here, but before I import my LR catalog to CC1, I wanted to get a little clarity on the future issues that may arise.

Essentially what I'm curious about is this: if I import my LR catalog into CC1, make a bunch of adjustments to many images using CC1 (not moving files around, just adjustments), will my LR catalog and images keep humming along as if nothing has happened?

I see myself using both applications in the immediate future, with a possible defection to CC1 eventually (haha), but I want to make sure everything is secure on the LR end.

Thanks everyone for your help! On a side not...Kevin, Michael and David's CC1 Pro Tutorial was simply fantastic!!

Best regards,
JB Rasor
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 07:20:31 pm by JB Rasor »
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digitaldog

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Re: Does CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 12:42:14 pm »

Essentially what I'm curious about is this: if I import my LR catalog into CC1, make a bunch of adjustments to many images using CC1 (not moving files around, just adjustments), will my LR catalog and images keep humming along as if nothing has happened?
I don't understand the 'process' of importing your LR catalog into CC1. Both catalogs are proprietary.
Now in terms of the images and their parametric (metadata) instructions that might be contained in the catalog OR within the image data, again, both are proprietary.
Are you asking about embedding proprietary instructions from both products in one file?
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JB Rasor

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Re: Does CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 07:20:02 pm »

CC1 allows LR users to import their entire catalog into CC1. Essentially you are doing a conversion, where CC1 creates a new catalog and references the raw files. CC1 keeps basic adjustments, crops, ratings, etc.
So now two proprietary catalogs are referencing the raw images simultaneously. In theory, basic adjustments would not effect the other catalog. Moving files, renaming files, or the like will impact the other catalog.
I'm curious if anyone utilizes both CC1 and LR simultaneously and if they have found any "gotchas," so to speak, in doing so. Using due diligence things should operate smoothly in both programs, but other users have made the transition I'm sure, so I just wanted a little feedback before I jumped in head first.   
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 07:30:39 pm »

Interesting, thank JB, didn't know CC1 could understand the LR database.
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JB Rasor

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 08:12:04 pm »

No problem Andrew. I'd take credit, but it came from the Lula tutorial on CC1 :)
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Rhossydd

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 04:38:04 am »

I use C1 & LR and they don't mess each other up at all.

Probably the thing to check is they don't both try to write to side car XMP files.
I would expect problems if both programs were altering the XMPs with information the other program didn't understand.

I've got LR to write changes to xmp and C1 to not use them.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 05:37:45 am »

I use C1 & LR and they don't mess each other up at all.

Probably the thing to check is they don't both try to write to side car XMP files.
I would expect problems if both programs were altering the XMPs with information the other program didn't understand.

I've got LR to write changes to xmp and C1 to not use them.

Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David
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brandon

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2015, 07:06:15 am »

Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David

This is great news for those of us who have done this in the past. Fantastic
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wok4

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 08:23:19 am »

Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David


Yeah! Owning C1 since version 6 but never using ist, I think now is the time to make the switch. Are there disadvantages to using DNG?

Wolfgang

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 10:03:06 am »

Yeah! Owning C1 since version 6 but never using ist, I think now is the time to make the switch.

Hi Wolfgang,

FYI, the image quality of C1 conversions has been significantly improved since the renewed version 7 engine replaced the one used until version 6. Capture One version 8 offers many improvements over previous versions, although the basic engine seems to be the same since version 7.

Quote
Are there disadvantages to using DNG?

DNGs can hold all sorts of image data, just like other TIFF variations like original camera Raws. Sometimes it's Raw, sometimes it's not as Raw as the original camera Raws (unless the camera already produced DNGs). Currently, DNGs do not all produce the same high quality conversions as the original camera Raws allow to. DNGs can hold data that has specifically been optimized for Adobe raw conversions. Sad but true, those are not necessarily the best for other converters. I hope you still have the original camera Raws for the best conversion quality.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2015, 10:28:05 am »

Quote
Currently, DNGs do not all produce the same high quality conversions as the original camera Raws allow to.
That's quite untrue.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 11:32:15 am by digitaldog »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 11:27:23 am »

That's quite untrue.

Hi Andrew,

It's not just an opinion, but many people confirm that (given a choice) the native Camera Raw files convert differently than the DNGs (especially when converted with the Adobe DNG converter or Lightroom). I believe (some?) Pentax cameras can output either PEF or DNG raws, and maybe there are some Leicas that also offer dual Raw format options, so they would be in a better position to confirm than you or I (both mainly Canon shooters) if the conversions are identical or not.

Also on Luminous Landscape there are users of Capture One who complain about the conversion quality of DNGs in Capture One (in case you forgot this is a Capture One forum/thread) compared to native Raw conversions. Things may be different in an Adobe centric environment, but there are other forums for that.

Another fact is that people tend to praise the color rendering of Canon files as done by the Canon Digital Photo Pro (DPP) application. Obviously Canon know better than anybody else how to get good quaility out of their own Raw files. They are uniquely positioned in utilizing all the proprietary data in the maker notes section of the EXIF metadata of the Canon CR2 files. So others without full access to the specific data (e.g. calibration data for reduction of pattern noise, or even sensor dust) will have to improvise. Some improvise better than others (e.g. Capture One extracts higher resolution out of the same Raw files than DPP, or ACR for that matter), and may also benefit assuming they can find and reverse engineer some of the data retained in a Raw file.
 
DNG files apparently use e.g. exposure offsets that benefit the Process 2012 conversions. Even the thumbnails have an Adobe flavor because they are created (with adjustable sizes) from the Raw data and not simply copied from the original Raw. I do not know what else is changed/added in the DNGs that may influence how other applications see the Raw data.

But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 11:30:08 am by BartvanderWolf »
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 11:31:25 am »

Hi Andrew,
It's not just an opinion, but many people confirm that (given a choice) the native Camera Raw files convert differently than the DNGs (especially when converted with the Adobe DNG converter or Lightroom).

Apologies Bart, I wasn't trying to pin this on you. I should go back and 'fix' the quote to show it's source.
The DNG raw is as raw as the original. One converter may very well produce a better rendering than another, that's got nothing to do with the raw being inside a DNG or not. Proprietary metadata only the camera manufacturers raw converter can use could very well produce better results in that product, and that data could be saved into the DNG (who could otherwise use it)?
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wok4

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 11:33:46 am »

Hello Bart!

Thanks for response.

My understandig of DNG (as detailed in the Adobe White Paper) is that all the RAW-Informations are in the DNG, only "re-packaged".
So the question which remains:

Does C1 use the information in the DNG as good as the original RAW?

On first testing (developing a DNG the same way and to the same extend as in LR it seems to be on par.

Thanks for clarification

Wolfgang
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 11:38:21 am »

But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.

Here you go. One image is exported out of LR from a CR2, the other after  conversion to DNG. All other settings are equal. I've subtracted the two, they are pixel for pixel identical.
IF I had used LR for one, another converter for the other, no matter which was what format, yes, there would be differences. But the DNG raw is as raw and treated like the proprietary raw all other items being equal.


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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 12:00:47 pm »

My understandig of DNG (as detailed in the Adobe White Paper) is that all the RAW-Informations are in the DNG, only "re-packaged".

Hi Wolfgang,

It's without a doubt much improved over earlier DNG versions, which are known to not having copied all the data of original Raws (that's one of the reasons that Adobe started adding more data to the DNG conversions), but we do not know if everything is copied. The only way of making sure is by fully embedding the original Raw, but that produces a much larger DNG. Maybe because they cannot compress it as efficiently, or because a lot of fields need to be duplicated that way and additional thumbnails added, we do not know the exact reason for the larger size.

Quote
So the question which remains:

Does C1 use the information in the DNG as good as the original RAW?

That's a good question, but I have not analyzed it with one-on-one comparisons in detail myself (because I see no benefit in DNGs, I have none, since all my original Raw files from the past can be converted just fine). With open source tools abound (like DCRaw based ones and with high quality demosaicing like in RawTherapee, and with profiling options like ICC profiles), I also see no threat for the foreseeable future. Also Capture One supports a huge number of original Camera Raws, including direct tethering if the camera's OS allow that.

Quote
On first testing (developing a DNG the same way and to the same extend as in LR it seems to be on par.

That's encouraging. I do know that Capture One added DNG 1.4 support to Capture One release version 8.3 (don't know what specifically needed to be changed or if that impacted quality of conversion as well), so maybe they are also improving the DNG conversion quality as we speak.

Cheers,
Bart
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JB Rasor

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 12:06:45 pm »

Interesting, as I was curious about cameras that natively write DNG's. Andrew, the RAW is embedded in the DNG correct? On a side note, how is the print output from CC1? Not to open up another discussion, but what the heck. Rhossydd, that is good advice! I believe I have CC1 set that way but I'm going to double check.
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 12:13:55 pm »

Andrew, the RAW is embedded in the DNG correct?
Yes (kind of). The raw sensor data is the same, let's put it that way. My illustration proves that there is no difference between the two outside the manufacturers converter which of course doesn't support DNG so it's moot.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 12:27:50 pm »

Here you go. One image is exported out of LR from a CR2, the other after  conversion to DNG. All other settings are equal. I've subtracted the two, they are pixel for pixel identical.

Hi Andrew,

I would not have expected anything less, since the conversion to DNG was also done with LR, the results should also be the same. Reading the original Raw and converting it on the fly, or converting it to DNG first in a separate step should not change the resulting data upon which the raw conversion in LR is based.

Both conversions should be identical if done by the same application, but are they also the same when converted by one application (e.g. DNG converter) and read by another application, e.g. Capture One? That's the question that was raised, so we'd need to compare Capture One conversions of DNG versions with original Raws from which those DNGs were made. One would hope they result in the same conversion, but past comments from various users seem to indicate otherwise.

Of course not all anecdotal reports are from equally reputable / scrutinously analytical users who are also somewhat versed in Capture One, so maybe things are actually more equal, at least now, than they used to be. I could run a test myself, although it would only satisfy my curiosity if had nothing else to do, and I only would be able to test with files that I have, which is from a limited number of camera models, and mostly Canons.

It would be nice if someone associated with Phase One could confirm if DNGs and Original camera Raws are always going to produce the same results (assuming the DNG version is supported, like up to 1.4), that would save a lot of us a lot of testing work.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 12:30:05 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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digitaldog

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Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 12:27:59 pm »

But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.
One more test. Same process as described using Lightroom, now using Iridient Developer which also supports DNG. Pixel for pixel identical using Apply Image/Subtract the TIFF's in Photoshop. Those reporting difference might need to provide files and proof of concept!




IS the rendering of the CR2/DNG different between LR and ID? Yes. To be expected.
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