Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: JB Rasor on July 29, 2015, 03:50:19 am

Title: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: JB Rasor on July 29, 2015, 03:50:19 am
Forgive my basic question here, but before I import my LR catalog to CC1, I wanted to get a little clarity on the future issues that may arise.

Essentially what I'm curious about is this: if I import my LR catalog into CC1, make a bunch of adjustments to many images using CC1 (not moving files around, just adjustments), will my LR catalog and images keep humming along as if nothing has happened?

I see myself using both applications in the immediate future, with a possible defection to CC1 eventually (haha), but I want to make sure everything is secure on the LR end.

Thanks everyone for your help! On a side not...Kevin, Michael and David's CC1 Pro Tutorial was simply fantastic!!

Best regards,
JB Rasor
Title: Re: Does CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 29, 2015, 12:42:14 pm
Essentially what I'm curious about is this: if I import my LR catalog into CC1, make a bunch of adjustments to many images using CC1 (not moving files around, just adjustments), will my LR catalog and images keep humming along as if nothing has happened?
I don't understand the 'process' of importing your LR catalog into CC1. Both catalogs are proprietary.
Now in terms of the images and their parametric (metadata) instructions that might be contained in the catalog OR within the image data, again, both are proprietary.
Are you asking about embedding proprietary instructions from both products in one file?
Title: Re: Does CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: JB Rasor on July 29, 2015, 07:20:02 pm
CC1 allows LR users to import their entire catalog into CC1. Essentially you are doing a conversion, where CC1 creates a new catalog and references the raw files. CC1 keeps basic adjustments, crops, ratings, etc.
So now two proprietary catalogs are referencing the raw images simultaneously. In theory, basic adjustments would not effect the other catalog. Moving files, renaming files, or the like will impact the other catalog.
I'm curious if anyone utilizes both CC1 and LR simultaneously and if they have found any "gotchas," so to speak, in doing so. Using due diligence things should operate smoothly in both programs, but other users have made the transition I'm sure, so I just wanted a little feedback before I jumped in head first.   
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 29, 2015, 07:30:39 pm
Interesting, thank JB, didn't know CC1 could understand the LR database.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: JB Rasor on July 29, 2015, 08:12:04 pm
No problem Andrew. I'd take credit, but it came from the Lula tutorial on CC1 :)
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Rhossydd on July 30, 2015, 04:38:04 am
I use C1 & LR and they don't mess each other up at all.

Probably the thing to check is they don't both try to write to side car XMP files.
I would expect problems if both programs were altering the XMPs with information the other program didn't understand.

I've got LR to write changes to xmp and C1 to not use them.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on July 30, 2015, 05:37:45 am
I use C1 & LR and they don't mess each other up at all.

Probably the thing to check is they don't both try to write to side car XMP files.
I would expect problems if both programs were altering the XMPs with information the other program didn't understand.

I've got LR to write changes to xmp and C1 to not use them.

Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: brandon on July 30, 2015, 07:06:15 am
Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David

This is great news for those of us who have done this in the past. Fantastic
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: wok4 on July 30, 2015, 08:23:19 am
Good advice.  Otherwise we are simply 'Read Only'.

Also with support for DNG 1.4 in the last release of Capture One if you have unfortunately converted your images to the DNG format (tongue in cheek there!) Capture One can now read them.

David


Yeah! Owning C1 since version 6 but never using ist, I think now is the time to make the switch. Are there disadvantages to using DNG?

Wolfgang

Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 30, 2015, 10:03:06 am
Yeah! Owning C1 since version 6 but never using ist, I think now is the time to make the switch.

Hi Wolfgang,

FYI, the image quality of C1 conversions has been significantly improved since the renewed version 7 engine replaced the one used until version 6. Capture One version 8 offers many improvements over previous versions, although the basic engine seems to be the same since version 7.

Quote
Are there disadvantages to using DNG?

DNGs can hold all sorts of image data, just like other TIFF variations like original camera Raws. Sometimes it's Raw, sometimes it's not as Raw as the original camera Raws (unless the camera already produced DNGs). Currently, DNGs do not all produce the same high quality conversions as the original camera Raws allow to. DNGs can hold data that has specifically been optimized for Adobe raw conversions. Sad but true, those are not necessarily the best for other converters. I hope you still have the original camera Raws for the best conversion quality.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 10:28:05 am
Quote
Currently, DNGs do not all produce the same high quality conversions as the original camera Raws allow to.
That's quite untrue.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 30, 2015, 11:27:23 am
That's quite untrue.

Hi Andrew,

It's not just an opinion, but many people confirm that (given a choice) the native Camera Raw files convert differently than the DNGs (especially when converted with the Adobe DNG converter or Lightroom). I believe (some?) Pentax cameras can output either PEF or DNG raws, and maybe there are some Leicas that also offer dual Raw format options, so they would be in a better position to confirm than you or I (both mainly Canon shooters) if the conversions are identical or not.

Also on Luminous Landscape there are users of Capture One who complain about the conversion quality of DNGs in Capture One (in case you forgot this is a Capture One forum/thread) compared to native Raw conversions. Things may be different in an Adobe centric environment, but there are other forums for that.

Another fact is that people tend to praise the color rendering of Canon files as done by the Canon Digital Photo Pro (DPP) application. Obviously Canon know better than anybody else how to get good quaility out of their own Raw files. They are uniquely positioned in utilizing all the proprietary data in the maker notes section of the EXIF metadata of the Canon CR2 files. So others without full access to the specific data (e.g. calibration data for reduction of pattern noise, or even sensor dust) will have to improvise. Some improvise better than others (e.g. Capture One extracts higher resolution out of the same Raw files than DPP, or ACR for that matter), and may also benefit assuming they can find and reverse engineer some of the data retained in a Raw file.
 
DNG files apparently use e.g. exposure offsets that benefit the Process 2012 conversions. Even the thumbnails have an Adobe flavor because they are created (with adjustable sizes) from the Raw data and not simply copied from the original Raw. I do not know what else is changed/added in the DNGs that may influence how other applications see the Raw data.

But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 11:31:25 am
Hi Andrew,
It's not just an opinion, but many people confirm that (given a choice) the native Camera Raw files convert differently than the DNGs (especially when converted with the Adobe DNG converter or Lightroom).

Apologies Bart, I wasn't trying to pin this on you. I should go back and 'fix' the quote to show it's source.
The DNG raw is as raw as the original. One converter may very well produce a better rendering than another, that's got nothing to do with the raw being inside a DNG or not. Proprietary metadata only the camera manufacturers raw converter can use could very well produce better results in that product, and that data could be saved into the DNG (who could otherwise use it)?
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: wok4 on July 30, 2015, 11:33:46 am
Hello Bart!

Thanks for response.

My understandig of DNG (as detailed in the Adobe White Paper) is that all the RAW-Informations are in the DNG, only "re-packaged".
So the question which remains:

Does C1 use the information in the DNG as good as the original RAW?

On first testing (developing a DNG the same way and to the same extend as in LR it seems to be on par.

Thanks for clarification

Wolfgang
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 11:38:21 am
But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.

Here you go. One image is exported out of LR from a CR2, the other after  conversion to DNG. All other settings are equal. I've subtracted the two, they are pixel for pixel identical.
IF I had used LR for one, another converter for the other, no matter which was what format, yes, there would be differences. But the DNG raw is as raw and treated like the proprietary raw all other items being equal.
(http://digitaldog.net/files/CR2.jpg)

(http://digitaldog.net/files/DMG.jpg)
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 30, 2015, 12:00:47 pm
My understandig of DNG (as detailed in the Adobe White Paper) is that all the RAW-Informations are in the DNG, only "re-packaged".

Hi Wolfgang,

It's without a doubt much improved over earlier DNG versions, which are known to not having copied all the data of original Raws (that's one of the reasons that Adobe started adding more data to the DNG conversions), but we do not know if everything is copied. The only way of making sure is by fully embedding the original Raw, but that produces a much larger DNG. Maybe because they cannot compress it as efficiently, or because a lot of fields need to be duplicated that way and additional thumbnails added, we do not know the exact reason for the larger size.

Quote
So the question which remains:

Does C1 use the information in the DNG as good as the original RAW?

That's a good question, but I have not analyzed it with one-on-one comparisons in detail myself (because I see no benefit in DNGs, I have none, since all my original Raw files from the past can be converted just fine). With open source tools abound (like DCRaw based ones and with high quality demosaicing like in RawTherapee, and with profiling options like ICC profiles), I also see no threat for the foreseeable future. Also Capture One supports a huge number of original Camera Raws (https://www.phaseone.com/en/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=2063&languageid=1), including direct tethering if the camera's OS allow that.

Quote
On first testing (developing a DNG the same way and to the same extend as in LR it seems to be on par.

That's encouraging. I do know that Capture One added DNG 1.4 support to Capture One release version 8.3 (don't know what specifically needed to be changed or if that impacted quality of conversion as well), so maybe they are also improving the DNG conversion quality as we speak.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: JB Rasor on July 30, 2015, 12:06:45 pm
Interesting, as I was curious about cameras that natively write DNG's. Andrew, the RAW is embedded in the DNG correct? On a side note, how is the print output from CC1? Not to open up another discussion, but what the heck. Rhossydd, that is good advice! I believe I have CC1 set that way but I'm going to double check.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 12:13:55 pm
Andrew, the RAW is embedded in the DNG correct?
Yes (kind of). The raw sensor data is the same, let's put it that way. My illustration proves that there is no difference between the two outside the manufacturers converter which of course doesn't support DNG so it's moot.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 30, 2015, 12:27:50 pm
Here you go. One image is exported out of LR from a CR2, the other after  conversion to DNG. All other settings are equal. I've subtracted the two, they are pixel for pixel identical.

Hi Andrew,

I would not have expected anything less, since the conversion to DNG was also done with LR, the results should also be the same. Reading the original Raw and converting it on the fly, or converting it to DNG first in a separate step should not change the resulting data upon which the raw conversion in LR is based.

Both conversions should be identical if done by the same application, but are they also the same when converted by one application (e.g. DNG converter) and read by another application, e.g. Capture One? That's the question that was raised, so we'd need to compare Capture One conversions of DNG versions with original Raws from which those DNGs were made. One would hope they result in the same conversion, but past comments from various users seem to indicate otherwise.

Of course not all anecdotal reports are from equally reputable / scrutinously analytical users who are also somewhat versed in Capture One, so maybe things are actually more equal, at least now, than they used to be. I could run a test myself, although it would only satisfy my curiosity if had nothing else to do, and I only would be able to test with files that I have, which is from a limited number of camera models, and mostly Canons.

It would be nice if someone associated with Phase One could confirm if DNGs and Original camera Raws are always going to produce the same results (assuming the DNG version is supported, like up to 1.4), that would save a lot of us a lot of testing work.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 12:27:59 pm
But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.
One more test. Same process as described using Lightroom, now using Iridient Developer which also supports DNG. Pixel for pixel identical using Apply Image/Subtract the TIFF's in Photoshop. Those reporting difference might need to provide files and proof of concept!

(http://digitaldog.net/files/IDdng.jpg)
(http://digitaldog.net/files/IDCr2.jpg)

IS the rendering of the CR2/DNG different between LR and ID? Yes. To be expected.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 02:33:41 pm
Both conversions should be identical if done by the same application, but are they also the same when converted by one application (e.g. DNG converter) and read by another application, e.g. Capture One?
Don't have C1. But ID behaves correctly, just like LR. IF C1 users find a difference between feeding it a proprietary raw and a DNG, C1 has to fix that bug. I can probably demonstrate with yet a 3rd raw processor that correctly handles DNG (like LR and ID) that there is zero difference if that's necessary. I don't think it is. Again, if C1 isn't handling the raw data in both formats the same, it's something they are doing wrong!
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: brandon on July 30, 2015, 03:36:51 pm
Don't have C1. But ID behaves correctly, just like LR. IF C1 users find a difference between feeding it a proprietary raw and a DNG, C1 has to fix that bug. I can probably demonstrate with yet a 3rd raw processor that correctly handles DNG (like LR and ID) that there is zero difference if that's necessary. I don't think it is. Again, if C1 isn't handling the raw data in both formats the same, it's something they are doing wrong!

It seems that C1 are making it more functional than less for those with DNG as David suggested higher in this post. Bart suggested in a response to a question I had on a separate thread why it may not be so straight forward which I'll simply paste here because he puts it far more eloquently than I could:

"In the case of Capture One, it possibly is another reason. C1 supports the original camera Raws of a huge number of cameras. They invested time and money to decode the files and maybe even figured out some of the secret stuff that's hidden in the file, to allow even better quality conversions. The support for DNGs, is not as extensive, and may yield lower quality conversion. There is little incentive for Phase One to recode the work they did years ago, and run the risk of screwing something up in the conversion process.

They also would have to redo some of that (like adding code to initialize the new fields, or changing the way the Raw conversion uses that data) if the DNG standard is changed in the future even though the original camera Raws didn't change since they were recorded. Since the DNG can also be created by others than the Camera maker (e.g. LR/ACR panoramas, or HDRs, or other sources), they cannot be certain either that the converter gets fed valid Raw data that can be used by Capture One (encoding errors or abnormal sizes), so they are suddenly forced to add validations to the converter code to avoid problems for which they would also need to ramp up support.

So it adds (future) cost to redo past work and to support a standard they do not own, and thus cannot plan resources for. And there is no real benefit for them to fully support DNG, because they still need to create camera profiles or specific decoding (e.g. Fuji X-trans) for new cameras that require support, and in addition supporting DNGs will only lower the threshold for users that for some specific feature want to switch to Adobe products (who try to lock in customers from switching back) and drop future C1 upgrades at any time they choose.

So there is more of a benefit for Adobe than for Phase One in fully supporting DNGs."


I have to say C1 seems to be always adding compatibility and retaining legacy features with each dot and version upgrade, and to date at least the support of any proprietry raw format doesnt seem to be in doubt even when there are processing engine changes. I guess thats because they are professionally focused and know that pros wouldnt tolerate (and amateurs have the same interest of what we shot with our earlier gear) if there was ever loss of functionality because the software company making the raw converter decided to drop what they formerly supported.In fact being able to redevelop raws from earlier equipment is a definite enhancement when a new processing engine is available (Im amazed how good my Canon 1Ds Mk1 come up in for example C1vers8 for example)
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 30, 2015, 03:55:51 pm
It seems that C1 are making it more functional than less for those with DNG as David suggested higher in this post.
Then they are not treating DNG's as first class citizens like other converters that properly support DNG.
Again, the raw contained within a DNG is the raw that existed outside it, before conversion. Two different manufacturers of raw converters treat the proprietary raw and the DNG exactly the same, which is what should happen.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Schewe on July 31, 2015, 03:01:40 am
It's not just an opinion, but many people confirm that (given a choice) the native Camera Raw files convert differently than the DNGs (especially when converted with the Adobe DNG converter or Lightroom).

If you are talking about C1, perhaps...if you are talking about ACR/LR, it is completely false. As the first stage of loading a raw file into ACR/LR the proprietary raw file is converted to DNG as a first step. That's the only way ACR/LR can access the raw file data. So, whether or not the original raw file is original raw or DNG, the end results should be identical. If they are not, it's user error, not a difference in the software handling of proprietary raw files vs DNG files.

The Internet is filled with misinformation...this is not misinformation. In ACR/LR, proprietary raw = DNG exactly since one is the same as the other. Care to prove me wrong?
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 31, 2015, 04:36:52 am
If you are talking about C1, perhaps...if you are talking about ACR/LR, it is completely false.

Hi Jeff,

Of course I am talking about C1, it's a C1 forum thread.

As the first stage of loading a raw file into ACR/LR the proprietary raw file is converted to DNG as a first step. That's the only way ACR/LR can access the raw file data. So, whether or not the original raw file is original raw or DNG, the end results should be identical. If they are not, it's user error, not a difference in the software handling of proprietary raw files vs DNG files.

Obviously, and I also answered that to Andrew:
Quote from: Bart
I would not have expected anything less, since the conversion to DNG was also done with LR, the results should also be the same. Reading the original Raw and converting it on the fly, or converting it to DNG first in a separate step should not change the resulting data upon which the raw conversion in LR is based.

Just out of curiosity, I took a 5DS R Raw file from DPReview (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/5) and converted to a DNG (with DNG converter 9.1.1), and opened both the original camera 1C3A4708.CR2 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/download-image?s3Key=0ddbe789b35442adb9605fd7be69b885.cr2) file, and the DNG version, in Capture One 8.3.2. Now I know that the EOS 5DS R support may still undergo changes as Phase One might tweak the profile a bit more, but given that the CR2 and the DNG conversions are done with the same profile, it should not play a role.

Attached is a zoomed out screen print showing both results and, lo and behold, they are different. Just like I warned to not blindly assume that things are going to be equal, even when I expected they would be equal. I'd rather test before assuming, and apparently that cautious approach pays off occasionally.

Is it an error on the part of Capture One? I don't know. Some people are quick to lay blame where it suits their agenda, I'd rather keep an open mind that maybe there is something happening in the DNG conversion that either is misinterpreted by Capture One and needs to be fixed, or the (modified?) instructions in the DNG prohibit to make the exact same conversion as from the camera original. I compared and saw some camera settings are missing from the EXIF in the DNG. Again, it may be Capture One not picking up e.g. the vendor specific White Balance info in the DNG, i don't know, but its strange that even a manual WB setting won't override any prior defaults. Guess I'd have to file a support request if I'd wanted Phase One to investigate, and maybe I'll find some time to do so.

It may well be possible to achieve similar looking results, by using different (WB) settings for both files, but that's not the point. The point is that the exact same settings, and I double checked them all, produce different results, for whatever reason.

And for those who like to defend Adobe and diss Capture One, my perpetual licensed Photoshop CS6 Extended just warned me that my trial period had 0 days left. Huh ?????? Upon restarting Photoshop it warned that my 30 day trial period has started, and I need to accept that to even use Photoshop.
WTF !!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: brandon on July 31, 2015, 06:51:25 am

It may well be possible to achieve similar looking results, by using different (WB) settings for both files, but that's not the point. The point is that the exact same settings, and I double checked them all, produce different results, for whatever reason.



Cheers,
Bart
That is pretty clear empirical evidence. So Im left pretty clear thinking there is NO value in converting to DNG. (and now I don't ). No conspiracy as I know its just an option from ADOBE, and Im willing to believe alturistically motivated: but what is the reason to? (I think Jeff Schewe, close to the ADOBE thinking has posted he doesnt do it anymore but I may need correction there). Maybe keeping a DNG converter "in case" compatibility is lost is a more reasonable insurance (assuming the platforms of the future will run it), it seems to me future guarantees from ADOBE of forward compatibility of products is perhaps the weak link in the chain not the lack of a standard for all. That said it would be great if C1 could see DNGs as LR does (but with the better conversion it offers eg detail etc.)
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 31, 2015, 07:26:37 am
That is pretty clear empirical evidence.

Well the test is a sample size of one file ..., so who knows what happens with other files. And it may well be an error on the part of Capture One, or caused by the Graphics card driver update from last night, I just don't know, but I do know enough to not assume blindly without verifying.

Quote
So Im left pretty clear thinking there is NO value in converting to DNG. (and now I don't ). No conspiracy as I know its just an option from ADOBE, and Im willing to believe alturistically motivated: but what is the reason to? (I think Jeff Schewe, close to the ADOBE thinking has posted he doesnt do it anymore but I may need correction there).

If I recall correctly, Jeff's issue was with the fact that any change to the parametric settings in LR, would be written to the DNG and thus forced his file mirroring setup to copy the entire DNG, while only a few bytes had changed (maybe even just after changing one control a bit and back to the prior settings again). By using much smaller XMP sidecar files, that burden is reduced a lot if not eliminated alltogether, depending on what (file modification date or actual contents) triggers the mirroring. Of course an original Camera Raw file should remain unchanged, so would never trigger a new mirroring event for those reasons.

Capture One writes its parametric settings to small separate settings files that are associated with the original Raw file, so with a similarly low impact on data mirroring as XMP sidecars would have.

But as far as I am concerned this is not a thread specifically about DNGs and their benefits or drawbacks, but rather a warning that conversions may have (unexpected) consequences, and one should test before diving in.

Quote
That said it would be great if C1 could see DNGs as LR does (but with the better conversion it offers eg detail etc.)

I agree, although differences in demosaicing will always create differences between Raw converters, but ideally two versions of a single file should be rendered the same in a single Raw converter.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 09:56:08 am
But as far as I am concerned this is not a thread specifically about DNGs and their benefits or drawbacks, but rather a warning that conversions may have (unexpected) consequences, and one should test before diving in.
There are no consequences when the software treats DNG's correctly, appears C1 isn't. I just tried a THIRD raw converter that supports DNG correctly (RPP) and guess what? It treats the CR2 and DNG exactly the same, like LR/ACR and ID!
Three different products produce pixel per pixel identical renderings from either a CR2 or the DNG converted from that CR2. Again, I don't have C1. I don't plan to ever use it IF it doesn't act the same and correctly as these other products do with respect to DNG. End of story. 
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 09:58:30 am
Is it an error on the part of Capture One? I don't know.
That answer by now should be obviously clear.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 31, 2015, 10:27:36 am
That answer by now should be obviously clear.

It's not clear, unless you use an unscientifically biased logic.
Maybe the other applications just ignore part of the DNG data, which C1 faithfully uses (as suggested by Adobe to do?) ?
That's at least one other possible explanation that first needs to be proven right or wrong, before more clarity can be declared...
Also many more different source files need to be checked, from different cameras, and possibly with different DNG versions (because older conversions may be hanled differently). But that won't stop some people from blaming whomever they can, as long as it's not Adobe.

Very unprofessional conduct, and clearly not intended to find answers or a solution. I'm disappointed by such 'contributions' when trying to solve other people's issues.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 10:45:57 am
It's not clear, unless you use an unscientifically biased logic.
Maybe the other applications just ignore part of the DNG data, which C1 faithfully uses (as suggested by Adobe to do?) ?
I thought you were a smart fellow...

Three (actually four) different products produce identical results, one presumably doesn't.
What's the old saying about insanity?
Maybe the other applications just ignore part of the DNG data, which C1 faithfully uses? Are you kidding?
Maybe four applications just don't ignore part of the DNG data, which C1 does, which is a bug.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Doug Peterson on July 31, 2015, 11:57:30 am
There is no bug. Phase One's Capture One simply doesn't provide full support for DNG.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 11:57:41 am
It's not clear, unless you use an unscientifically biased logic.

Very unprofessional conduct, and clearly not intended to find answers or a solution. I'm disappointed by such 'contributions' when trying to solve other people's issues.
Bart, perhaps you are a scientist by trade or training, I'm not. But the statement you've provided is rather disappointing for a number of reasons. You wrote:
Quote
But since you are so confident that it makes no difference, and all those who reported those differences are wrong, feel free to demonstrate that fact.
First off, you didn't state you observed differences, you provided reports from others which could or should be considered hearsay. You asked for proof. I provided data from three different products I own that support DNG (four if you count ACR). All produced the same expected results; DNG and proprietary TIFF renderings were identical from each. The one company that produced the DNG spec and tells us that DNG and proprietary data should be treated the same do as they suggest as well as two other companies who one would expect is also following the spec. One company's product presumably doesn't, C1. I say presumably because I don't own it, didn't test it. And I don't have to, the burden of proof is on you and fellow C1 users to prove scientifically it's operating correctly!

In terms of science and interpreting the results thus far, if the company that provides the format spec produces a result it says it should AND two other companies do as well, how can you state with those current data points that It's not clear, unless you use an unscientifically biased logic?

Did I test every raw converter that says it supports DNG? No. Did you test any? No, just C1. Did all the products I tested that support DNG produce the same expected results? Yes!

At this point, the burden of proof doesn't fall on Adobe and the other two companies, it falls on C1. That you would suggest Adobe and those other companies are treating DNG incorrectly and C1 treats the correctly and that's why it's rendering is different has zero science to back up that hypothesis. That concept IMHO is unscientifically biased logic if I can be so kind as to use that word.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 11:59:59 am
There is no bug. Phase One's Capture One simply doesn't provide full support for DNG.
There's an old saying among software engineers which what you wrote supports: It's not a bug, it just doesn't behave as designed.
Now perhaps you can tell us why C1 doesn't provide full support for DNG while others do. That's useful to end users in just what way?
Why doesn't C1 treat DNG's as a first class citizen like three other products?
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 31, 2015, 12:28:35 pm
There is no bug. Phase One's Capture One simply doesn't provide full support for DNG.

Okay Doug, good to know. That answers the initial question about impacts of adjustments.
Not that it's necessarily satisfying, but it saves time spent/wasted on testing, and explains the recurring reports about issues with DNGs in Capture One.

I can now get back to processing a large number of images taken yesterday, original camera Raws (CR2s) of course...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 12:44:51 pm
Okay Doug, good to know. That answers the initial question about impacts of adjustments.
Right, you got it from the horses mouth, we can now accept that C1 doesn't handle DNG's as designed unlike other products. WHY it doesn't would be a good question.
Quote
Not that it's necessarily satisfying, but it saves time spent/wasted on testing, and explains the recurring reports about issues with DNGs in Capture One.
Not satisfying is for a potential C1 customer like me, an understatement! Saves me time not looking at that product, continuing to edit DNG's in products that do so correctly. Good to know my choices of alternate products that do support DNG do so properly and as designed.

My advise to C1, which will likely fall on deaf ears is this: Support DNG fully and properly or don't 'support' it at all. I've got no issues with software companies that don't want to support DNG. I have no issue with those that support it correctly (I applaud them). A company that has a half baked so called support? Seems rather silly.

And now Bart, you're off the hook in terms of your dismissal of my science. It was sound and provided pretty accurate evidence of what Doug just provided: C1 doesn't support DNG "fully" (IMHO correctly). As to why you guys can debate.

Quote
Very unprofessional conduct, and clearly not intended to find answers or a solution. I'm disappointed by such 'contributions' when trying to solve other people's issues.
No apologies necessary Bart.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 31, 2015, 01:56:13 pm
Right, you got it from the horses mouth, we can now accept that C1 doesn't handle DNG's as designed unlike other products. WHY it doesn't would be a good question.Not satisfying is for a potential C1 customer like me, an understatement! Saves me time not looking at that product, continuing to edit DNG's in products that do so correctly. Good to know my choices of alternate products that do support DNG do so properly and as designed.

My advise to C1, which will likely fall on deaf ears is this: Support DNG fully and properly or don't 'support' it at all. I've got no issues with software companies that don't want to support DNG. I have no issue with those that support it correctly (I applaud them). A company that has a half baked so called support? Seems rather silly.

And now Bart, you're off the hook in terms of your dismissal of my science. It was sound and provided pretty accurate evidence of what Doug just provided: C1 doesn't support DNG "fully" (IMHO correctly). As to why you guys can debate.
No apologies necessary Bart.

I do apologise, for the mistake of believing that the level of discourse on Luminous Landscape rose above that of DPreview. Apparently I was too optimistic.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 02:02:30 pm
I do apologise, for the mistake of believing that the level of discourse on Luminous Landscape rose above that of DPreview. Apparently I was too optimistic.
At least we know why there's reported disconnect but as yet, not why C1 operates this way.

Would you agree, it wouldn’t be a bad idea if they treated DNG's as others do and as intended by it's designers? Or at least some preference IF C1 engineers can explain why their current behavior is 'useful'?

There's always room on the ignore list for one more, I'd love to keep it only at two.
Title: Re: Do CC1 adjustments impact LR Catalog?
Post by: digitaldog on July 31, 2015, 02:11:48 pm
That is pretty clear empirical evidence.
Still think so?
Is it an error on the part of Capture One?

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
― Søren Kierkegaard