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Author Topic: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?  (Read 68579 times)

pegelli

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2015, 04:41:18 pm »

Try raising the levels in deep shadows.   You will see artifacts in Sony RAW images.
Any examples to share?
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pieter, aka pegelli

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2015, 07:02:56 pm »

No update from Sony on their plan to deliver a fix for this limitation?

Cheers,
Bernard

Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2015, 07:56:13 pm »

Try raising the levels in deep shadows.   You will see artifacts in Sony RAW images.

Deep shadows are unaffected by the tone curve in cRAW.

I've see a7x artifacts with really big shadow pushes, but they are not related to raw compression. Mostly column ADC effects, and heat from componentry around the edges of the light-sensitive area.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=7681

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=7694

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=7709

Jim

rainer_v

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2015, 08:03:21 am »

if i only would understand anything in this links is written..... ???
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rainer viertlböck
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capital

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #124 on: August 06, 2015, 01:41:36 pm »

I am trying to understand why electronic first curtain shutter release mode on the A7RII uses less bit depth than the focal plane shutter mode. Is there a technical issue, or ?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #125 on: August 06, 2015, 02:15:29 pm »

Hi,

Could be it may be related to speed of readout. A reduction in bit depth may allow for faster readout.

Keep in mind that this is all a compromise. CPU-power, heat generation, cooling and so on.

Best regards
Erik


I am trying to understand why electronic first curtain shutter release mode on the A7RII uses less bit depth than the focal plane shutter mode. Is there a technical issue, or ?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #126 on: August 06, 2015, 02:23:12 pm »

Wouldn't the division from 14 bits to 11 bits and subsequent re-inflation to 14 bits will result in missing codes, even without consideration of the delta coding?

Yes it will. Even in the lowest part of the curve, half the codes are missing, and more as you go higher. The rationale is that shot noise will provide adequate dither. I buy that, for the most part.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6127

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #127 on: August 06, 2015, 02:29:13 pm »

I am trying to understand why electronic first curtain shutter release mode on the A7RII uses less bit depth than the focal plane shutter mode. Is there a technical issue, or ?

I don't know that what you're saying is true. It's not true for the a7, a7S, and a7II. It is true for silent shutter in the a7S, and bulb can continuous modes in all three cameras.

How do you know that EFCS uses fewer bits of precision in the a7RII?

Jim

labirdman

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2015, 04:07:55 pm »

RAW compression artifacts confirmed in A7RII shot with high contrast border and moderate exposure push, as expected. See http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3883983, end of second page for analysis.

Bummer.
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capital

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2015, 05:44:22 pm »

Is EFS the same as Silent Shutter? I guess I was thinking they were the same thing, one just being marketing speak.

I guess if they are different, okay, but why does Silent Shutter (not sure what the distinction is) lose bit depth?


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Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2015, 05:46:23 pm »

I am trying to understand why electronic first curtain shutter release mode on the A7RII uses less bit depth than the focal plane shutter mode. Is there a technical issue, or ?

That's just not true. I just ran a test and got identical precision, read noise, and EDR for EFCS on and off, in single shot mode.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11142

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2015, 06:08:26 pm »

Is EFS the same as Silent Shutter? I guess I was thinking they were the same thing, one just being marketing speak.

I guess if they are different, okay, but why does Silent Shutter (not sure what the distinction is) lose bit depth?


In silent shutter mode, the reset signal occurs to start the exposure, but instead of ending the exposure with the second curtain and having all the time in the world to do the analog to digital conversion like in EFCS, the data is read out on the fly. It takes 1/30 second to read out the data with the a7S. I don't know about the a7RII. The Sony engineers do not habitually consult me, but my guess is that they are running the ramp twice as fast and the counters at the same speed in the single slope ADCs to that the conversions are twice as fast.

Jim

capital

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2015, 06:28:07 pm »

Thank you Jim for the nuts and volts discussion, regarding the increased frequency of the comparator's waveform. I am struck by the thought that the silent shutter operation could maintain the same precision, at the expense of reduced frames per second? Does Sony allow greater FPS in Silent Shutter mode as a consequence of this change in bit depth, or does this increased throughput go towards some other goal?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2015, 06:30:46 pm »

Thank you Jim for the nuts and volts discussion, regarding the increased frequency of the comparator's waveform. I am struck by the thought that the silent shutter operation could maintain the same precision, at the expense of reduced frames per second? Does Sony allow greater FPS in Silent Shutter mode as a consequence of this change in bit depth, or does this increased throughput go towards some other goal?

It would not be reduced fps that would be the casualty of slower readout, but a greater time to make one exposure. As it is, 1/30 second is too slow for many, who are used to, say, 1/250 second with mechanical focal plane shutters.

Jim

capital

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2015, 06:42:37 pm »

The Sony's Silent Shutter is restricted to exposures of 1/30th of a second or slower?
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MatthewCromer

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2015, 06:57:44 pm »

The Sony's Silent Shutter is restricted to exposures of 1/30th of a second or slower?

No, silent shutter can give shorter shutter speeds, but takes a total of 1/30 second to read the entire sensor.

This means that with faster shutter speeds it is exposing / reading only an increasingly narrow band of pixels at a time.

This is just like a focal plane shutter which, at speeds faster than the flash sync speed (1/160 is typical) is exposing a "band" of pixels at a time.

This can lead to visual artifacts, such as propeller warping.

https://www.google.com/search?q=focal+plane+shutter+distortion&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
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eronald

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2015, 08:51:25 pm »

Obviously, everybody in this thread is smarter than me re. engineering, so as the designated Asperger may I ask the obvious question:

Has anybody actually tried engaging with Sony by walking up to one of their higher level japanese execs at a presentation?

My experience with japanese corporations is that the customer is God, and every bona-fide customer query that is registered will be listened to and relayed upstream, and there will be a careful response. However the query can only come in via a japanese employee, because a non-japanese employee does not (usually) participate in the collective decision process.

Edmund

« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 08:53:24 pm by eronald »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #137 on: August 07, 2015, 03:25:10 am »


My experience with japanese corporations is that the customer is God,


That recently, last 12-24 months at least, has not been the customer experience from Nikon. Thom Hogan has been collecting data on Nikon and their customer base and the conclusion is consistent: They are not listening or responding to us (main gripe is DX pro body, lack of (remember DX ? )
However one of the main Nikon customer complaints is "where is our mirror-less Sony/Fuji killer? " It would appear from the recent Nikon financials that the Nikon response, we don't care to get into that fight (at the moment), is fully justified despite the "noise" around Sony, and Fuji sometimes, here and elsewhere. 

For the full year Nikon expects to sell:

34% of all interchangeable lens cameras (slightly up from last year’s 33%)
30% of all lenses (slightly down from last year)
31% of all compact cameras


Against that Fuji results would seem to indicate they have 1% of the interchangeable lens camera market.

Source:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-q1-financial-results.html
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rdonson

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #138 on: August 07, 2015, 10:04:33 am »

The larger the corporation the more likely it is that there will be several layers of MBAs making product and funding decisions.  If you'll recall Nikon's camera revival a few years ago it supposedly came as a result of firing a few layers of management.

My experience with Fuji is that they actively listen and seek out what their customers are saying about their cameras and lenses.  Its quite refreshing after 40+ years in the Canon camp.

Market share is of little value in this conversation.  For example, what market share does Leica have?  Does that influence how you perceive Leica?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 10:06:50 am by rdonson »
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Regards,
Ron

Wayne Fox

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Re: How to convince Sony to do lossless raw on A7RII and others?
« Reply #139 on: August 07, 2015, 01:23:39 pm »

I am trying to understand why electronic first curtain shutter release mode on the A7RII uses less bit depth than the focal plane shutter mode. Is there a technical issue, or ?
I believe it’s silent shutter mode not front curtain mode that reduces the bit depth.  Silent shutter mode uses electronic first and second curtains.  According to Mark in another thread

Quote
Some shutter modes also make it revert to 12bit:

Silent Shooting
Long Exposure NR
Bulb (more than 30 sec. exposure)
Continuous Shooting (including Bracketing continuous shooting)
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