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Author Topic: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1  (Read 108736 times)

eronald

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I don't really see that you need to understand why it makes sense for me to do this.

You are absolutely right. :)

Edmund
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Theodoros

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IMO things are very simple when one chooses photographic equipment... Go the long term path! I don't see people "upgrading" their P3 + 54H combination often... and the IQ of this (10 years old tech) is still far ahead than any other one can buy....  I don't see why one should "upgrade" his IQ 180 either (although I would never buy it in the first place)... why should he?
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synn

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Long exposures for one.
But i am with Gerald in this. He doesn't need to justify his purchase decisions to anyone, let alone a forum full of folks with agendas.
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voidshatter

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Long exposures for one.
But i am with Gerald in this. He doesn't need to justify his purchase decisions to anyone, let alone a forum full of folks with agendas.
15K just for the long exposure at ISO200?  ;D Good luck justifying this purchase to oneself...
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jsiva

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I couldn't believe it. I asked the dealer 5 times if he was sure. He insisted he was.

This was at the XF launch event in Dubai. A couple of guys from Phase One were there too, including a chap I have met before.  Even when he confirmed it, I still couldn't believe it!

I'm astounded people aren't discussing this on the forums.

I'm not sure what the list price is for a IQ3 80MP (btw that's the correct name for the back), and sure - people don't necessarily pay list even if buying outright. But I paid 27.5K for my IQ180 a little over 3 years ago.

This upgrade is a no-brainer.


Gerald, I agree it is a no brainer if you are interested in the upgrade.  It also means that if you had to sell it, you're not going to lose much at a net price around 28-30K USD.

The pricing is, however, in line with what we saw on the IQ280 which was around 16.5K USD.  My issue whit hat upgrade was that IQ180-->IQ280 was almost the same as P65+ --> IQ280.  We are also looking at these in USD, and the strong dollar surely helps here as well.

Good luck with the upgrade and looking forward to seeing it on the monster rig you got there :)
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gerald.d

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Gerald, I agree it is a no brainer if you are interested in the upgrade.  It also means that if you had to sell it, you're not going to lose much at a net price around 28-30K USD.

The pricing is, however, in line with what we saw on the IQ280 which was around 16.5K USD.  My issue whit hat upgrade was that IQ180-->IQ280 was almost the same as P65+ --> IQ280.  We are also looking at these in USD, and the strong dollar surely helps here as well.

Good luck with the upgrade and looking forward to seeing it on the monster rig you got there :)


16.5K for 180-280 with 5 year warranty? Was that what it was? You sure?

Two things to note though, even if that was the case.

Financially, 180-380 is significantly better. Because the second hand value for private sale of an out of warranty 180 is now certainly under 15k. Not that I look at things this way, but I'd actually be increasing my total assets by doing this upgrade. Substantially so if you take into account the warranty.

Functionally, 180-380 is hugely different than 180-280 was at launch of the 280.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

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jsiva

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16.5K for 180-280 with 5 year warranty? Was that what it was? You sure?

Two things to note though, even if that was the case.

Financially, 180-380 is significantly better. Because the second hand value for private sale of an out of warranty 180 is now certainly under 15k. Not that I look at things this way, but I'd actually be increasing my total assets by doing this upgrade. Substantially so if you take into account the warranty.

Functionally, 180-380 is hugely different than 180-280 was at launch of the 280.

Kind regards,


Gerald.



Agreed, the IQ380 has far more to offer in incremental features vs.the IQ280.  Just the long-exposure and XF integration are enough if needed in your workflow.

The pricing I indicated is correct, but it was with a 1year warranty.  I remember because the price for the IQ260 Achromatic was the same as IQ280, and I upgraded a P65+ to a 260Achro.

From a total value point, you're right.  Even splitting the difference, you're getting about 8-10K in additional value with this trade.  Will you be getting the XF as well, some of the automation can't hurt in your aeriel work.

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gerald.d

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Agreed, the IQ380 has far more to offer in incremental features vs.the IQ280.  Just the long-exposure and XF integration are enough if needed in your workflow.

The pricing I indicated is correct, but it was with a 1year warranty.  I remember because the price for the IQ260 Achromatic was the same as IQ280, and I upgraded a P65+ to a 260Achro.

From a total value point, you're right.  Even splitting the difference, you're getting about 8-10K in additional value with this trade.  Will you be getting the XF as well, some of the automation can't hurt in your aeriel work.



The warranty adds significant value. I appreciate of course that now the "value added" warranty is effectively free, in response to pricing challenges from Pentax and Hassleblad, but it does have significant value when you're trading up from a back that is out of warranty.

XF I have little/no personal interest in. We have a DF+ at work that I'll get upgraded (the vibration sensing has some interesting potential use cases for us), but for my personal shooting these days my IQ180 may as well be permanently welded to my CAPcam.
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Paul2660

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I read through the announcements, at least I thought I did, what incremental features are you all seeing, besides power sharing between the 280 and 380?  As I recall that's it.  The 380/360/350 all have 2 extra pins to allow for power sharing comm, which also by the way means if your using a tech camera, you need a new plate as the current plates don't have a wide enough hole for all the pins.  I realize the 180/160 will not have all the capabilities, but that's not the posed question.  

The 380 has long exposure capability, built on the same tech as the 260/360.  Unless it's a totally new design, which I have told it's not, then I think you can expect the exact same results as the 260 and for long exposures, the 260 is not a great back, past maybe 10 minutes unless you are working the arctic.  The 250/350 will run rings around it for cleaner longer shots.  Plus the 380 is a denser chip, and may be even more suspect to heat thus noise.  

Also, note that the LE mode for the 380 starts at iso 200.  You really would not want to stack short exposures with this back for a lot reasons, but the mandatory  dark frame is one of the main ones, so then you are looking at single long exposures with the mandatory dark frame of equal exposure, and you are at iso 200, which is not IMO where you want to be for a long single exposure, more like iso 50, especially if you are working in daylight.  Note also the base iso of the 380 is now 50, not 35.  

I looked at the upgrade to the 380, but I can't see a valid reason for me, coming from the 260.  Yes the upgrade is more expensive by around 2K, but even if it was the same, besides the 20MP more pixels, which I don't need, I am having trouble seeing the reasons to move, unless you want the XF and all the communications.  But for me at this point in my career, I couldn't justify that anymore.  If the LE results are similar to the 260, again I can't see any reason for the move, the image quality is just not that good unless you are looking for 2 min to 10 minute shots and don't live in a warm climate, with humidity.  

I may have missed something for sure, as I only glanced over all the specs of the 380, and once I heard it was based on the 2 year old tech of the 260, I was less interested, been there done that, never again.  

Just curious,

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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ndevlin

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I couldn't believe that price either.  Fantastic! Though I will make you an even sweeter offer:

Your IQ180 + $5,000 Euro for a slightly newer IQ 180.  

Hard to resist, eh?

 ;D

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

gerald.d

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Hi Paul -

I agree completely.

There seems little point in upgrading from IQ2 to IQ3. Just as there was little point in upgrading from IQ1 to IQ2.

But there are a lot of benefits to be gained by upgrading from IQ1 to IQ3.

If Phase were offering an even better IQ1 to IQ2 deal than they were IQ1 to IQ3, then it would be potentially of interest to me.

But I don't believe such offers are on the table.

Kind regards,

Gerald
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 05:56:29 pm by gerald.d »
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Ken R

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Paul the IQ260 is a stunning back that should work great with an XF. No real reason to upgrade.

Of course for low light and long exposure nothing beats the IQ150/250/350 on an XF (or tech cam!). Best sensor made for a wide range of light conditions combined with the stunning Schneider/Phase LS lenses.

The IQ260 is still best at iso 50 and with good light. The long exposure capability is nice to have but as you know it does not show the best of what the sensor can do. It is like an added feature which makes the back quite usable for very long exposures (where the IQ140/160/180/280 are not).

I though the IQ140 was discontinued I see its still in the current product line. Awesome back that flies under the radar sorta speak.

I like what Phase has done with the XF and the IQ backs (well, still don't like the pricing obviously). They now have an impressive product line including the lenses. (really wished for filter thread sizes to be kept under 95mm for all lenses though)
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ciccio

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the real truth is how phase can sell all  ccd sensor stock.....
when full frame cmos arrive nobody will buy a ccd back , be aware...
best.
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BernardLanguillier

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the real truth is how phase can sell all  ccd sensor stock.....
when full frame cmos arrive nobody will buy a ccd back , be aware...
best.

Now, my guess is that "full frame" CMOS are a lot more than a few months away. Besides there are many applications when these backs are always used at base ISO with lots of light and the CCDs perform well in those conditions.

Resell value may take a significant hit, but why resell them? A photographer like Synn seems 100% happy about his Leaf back featuring a CCD and it seems unlikely he would be interested in a back featuring a CMOS Sony sensor with colors mostly backed in. I am sure there are many like him.

Anyway, those backs only make sense if either you have a good business or enough money that 40,000 US$ is a drop in the ocean. So resell value is a secundary concern for most buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard

ciccio

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agree with you but the new back is a very very small improvement from the iq2 series and when the next iq4 will be released the market will drop for second hand.
like allways in all economy business.
best.
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voidshatter

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Now, my guess is that "full frame" CMOS are a lot more than a few months away. Besides there are many applications when these backs are always used at base ISO with lots of light and the CCDs perform well in those conditions.

Resell value may take a significant hit, but why resell them? A photographer like Synn seems 100% happy about his Leaf back featuring a CCD and it seems unlikely he would be interested in a back featuring a CMOS Sony sensor with colors mostly backed in. I am sure there are many like him.

Anyway, those backs only make sense if either you have a good business or enough money that 40,000 US$ is a drop in the ocean. So resell value is a secundary concern for most buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard


CCD is only good for studio shots. CCD has low dynamic range even at base ISO when you compare it against Sony CMOS. The IQ280 is no match against the D800E in terms of dynamic range - no need to mention that it is far behind the IQ250.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/52844-backlight-landscape-photography-realized-say-no-silhouette.html
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synn

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CCD is only good for studio shots. CCD has low dynamic range even at base ISO when you compare it against Sony CMOS.



I must be a magician because I managed to fit a 70 storey building in a studio! Also, somebody please mail Joe Cornish and tell him that the backs he has been using over the years are apparently not good for his purposes!

I don't care much about the DR of Sony CMOS. I have one of those and my CCD back and I find myself in very few situations where the DR of my Credo is inadequate.

Bernard is very right in saying that I have no interest in the full frame CMOS back. I bought my back for very specific use cases. For everything else, I use a 35mm rig. I couldn't care less if that 35mm rig is supersized into MF proportions.

I do hope though that all the CCD naysayers dump their existing backs into the market and go CMOS hunting when the full frame chip arrives. Great news for those of us who want to upgrade to full frame CCD.
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buckshot

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I'm not commenting on whether it's a good thing or not for someone else to do - that's entirely their business - but from my point of view ...

... an IQ180 plus $15k of my hard earned cash and in return I'll get back ...

... pretty much the same IQ as the 180 ...

... is a great deal ...

... but mostly for Phase One.
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voidshatter

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I must be a magician because I managed to fit a 70 storey building in a studio! Also, somebody please mail Joe Cornish and tell him that the backs he has been using over the years are apparently not good for his purposes!

I don't care much about the DR of Sony CMOS. I have one of those and my CCD back and I find myself in very few situations where the DR of my Credo is inadequate.

Bernard is very right in saying that I have no interest in the full frame CMOS back. I bought my back for very specific use cases. For everything else, I use a 35mm rig. I couldn't care less if that 35mm rig is supersized into MF proportions.

I do hope though that all the CCD naysayers dump their existing backs into the market and go CMOS hunting when the full frame chip arrives. Great news for those of us who want to upgrade to full frame CCD.


Of course by using Ansel Adam's film you can become a legendary. I can't.

Joe Cornish can use IQ280 to capture what Ansel Adam could not easily capture.

Marc Adamus can use Sony CMOS to capture what a CCD cannot easily capture.

Your definition of "good gear" is "being able to follow / copy from the previous legendary". My definition of "good gear" is "being able to challenge what others could not easily capture due to absolute performance limitations".

https://500px.com/photo/102556941/moon-shrine-by-marc-adamus


https://500px.com/photo/90744153/dance-of-the-night-by-marc-adamus
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 09:24:47 am by voidshatter »
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synn

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Gear for me is to shoot what I like. I like horses for courses, not one ring to rule them all.

The difference between you and me is that I don't insist that my way is the only way. You however keep shoving down our throats that it's CMOS or bust for the entire photographic world.

You made a specific statement that "CCD is ONLY good in the studio". i showed an example that disproves this and refered to a famous artist who has even more examples to disprove it. One of many. All you can offer in response is a deflection. But such is the art of conversation on internet forums.

Nice pictures, btw. Good to see how an artist with a  vision gets the best out of his gear. Sadly though, I am not seeing YOUR vision, only your complaints.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 09:36:46 am by synn »
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