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Author Topic: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool  (Read 768244 times)

Iliah

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #680 on: August 04, 2015, 11:13:41 pm »

Agree with Tim, skin needs to contain a little yellow, even for Northern European children. Hemoglobin + Melanin + skin thickness does that. "A" for me, too.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #681 on: August 04, 2015, 11:24:18 pm »

Hi,

I guess I like 'A' best followed by 'B'.

I agree with Tim and Iliah on what has been said. But, I have little experience with skin.

Best regards
Erik


Can't tell you which one is which but I prefer 'A''s skin tone.

Based on 40 years of observation I can say all skin has some yellow in it at any given time of day, shade or sunshine unless the subject is an albino.

'B' & 'C' are a bit too pinky where I see the tuft of hair just above the forehead has a magenta tinge. Being able to get rid of any Rosacea or other skin conditions that show pinkish hues in a profile is a big plus. I have to make hue adjustments constantly using ACR/LR's HSL.

Good work, torger. Thanks for posting samples. It helps me make sense of this thread.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ah693973

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #682 on: August 04, 2015, 11:40:08 pm »

My preference would be "B" as the one I perceive is most accurate.

"A" looks nicer to me, but the lighting looks pretty cool and the skin tone looks warmer (almost unnaturally so). "A" looks more like what I would expect with the sun out (more yellow, less blue).

Andy
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #683 on: August 05, 2015, 03:16:41 am »

Here's the answer:

A: DCamProf with the neutral tone reproduction operator, that is the most "accurate" colors, no manual tunings (except for the smoothness/accuracy tradeoff during colorimetric design)
B: DCamProf using the upcoming feature set that allows hand-tuning colors, here with my own skin-tone tunings
C: Hasselblad Phocus original rendering

Personally I think Hasselblad puts too much pink/magenta into skin tones, but it will depend on the light how they appear. Fixing things in a profile is a crude way to do things as it will be static adjustments which will work better in some images and worse in others so I'm not really sure it's a good idea at all. It's how every commercial raw converter does it so I thought it would be interesting to provide the possibility to do the same with DCamProf.

The adjustments I've made: compressed the skin tone hue range so that reds and yellows are brought closer together, adjusted the overall tone, added a tad more saturation on low saturation skins (to avoid grayish look on pale people). The range that fall on lips (and often cheeks) has got a tiny magenta and lightness boost (less so than Hassy's rendering) which is supposed to separate lips more and add a "freshness" to the skin.

The midtones and highlights has got a warming up, but that's for landscape (one can see it on the tone of the wall), I'm not really happy with that adjustment yet so I may revert/change that part and adjust skin tone range accordingly so it stays about the same as now. I'm quite pleased with the current skin tone result, but I'm not sure I'd use it myself over the original neutral rendering. I just want to test and see that it can be done and have an example file before I release this functionality.

The white balance is same for all (daylight) but since it's in the shade the look is a little bit on the cool side, maybe should have had a shade white balance here but it was a bit too yellow I thought. I've used several other shots in other light conditions as well when doing this tuning. I took this one as an example to show as the differences where a bit easier to see here. In bright sunlight the results are a bit closer. The wall is in reality not really neutral gray but has a bit of blue in it which may amplify the cool look.

It's interesting that most of you prefer the A rendering. Maybe the secret to skin tones may just be to render them as accurately as possible :-)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 03:30:20 am by torger »
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #684 on: August 05, 2015, 03:41:56 am »

I was going to say I think A is hasselblad and C neutral. But clearly that was wrong. B has that tinge to the hair that made me think it is a work in progress.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #685 on: August 05, 2015, 04:15:46 am »

I was going to say I think A is hasselblad and C neutral. But clearly that was wrong. B has that tinge to the hair that made me think it is a work in progress.

Well spotted, I'd stared so much on the skin I did not notice that. I thought it was a moire effect at first, but it's most likely the lip/cheek magenta boost that taints the hair. It's the generic problem of subjective profiles, no local adjustments are possible so any colors in the same range will be modified even if it's not skin.

Another issue is that subjective profile adjustments are also very sensitive to white balance setting as it moves around the colors, that is the skin tone hue range varies a bit depending on white balance.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 04:17:34 am by torger »
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Iliah

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #686 on: August 05, 2015, 09:52:02 am »

> Maybe the secret to skin tones may just be to render them as accurately as possible :-)

It is a cultural thing. My Far East customers always prefer less saturated skin tones on their portraits.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #687 on: August 05, 2015, 10:09:04 am »

> Maybe the secret to skin tones may just be to render them as accurately as possible :-)

It is a cultural thing. My Far East customers always prefer less saturated skin tones on their portraits.

did they ask you to photoshop their eyes too :) ?
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #688 on: August 05, 2015, 11:15:25 am »

I've just released v0.9.0, the big new things is of course the "look operators" feature so you can design a look. It's really not intended to make crazy "filters", but really just very subtle adjustments from the default neutral look.

Probably it is like only myself that will ever use it :) , because it's really tedious to work with without a GUI, but if you're the patient type of person you can do it.

I've included one example look, which is an updated version of the one posted in an example a few messages back. It should be used as a template example only, as adjustments are really fine it will probably vary if it will look well or not on a profile made for a different camera, and also depending on the chosen contrast curve.

It's also a time-wasting experience to tune these looks, you can get stuck like forever on making an almost invisible adjustment, so I just said "enough is enough" and made the release instead :). For the specific test images I've had I think my look became more pleasing than Hasselblad's own, but it's of course a matter of taste :).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 11:17:22 am by torger »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #689 on: August 05, 2015, 11:24:44 am »

did they ask you to photoshop their eyes too :) ?

Don't know about their eyes, but I saw a report that they do go to the beach at night, to avoid a suntan...

And to get back on topic, I feel an urge rising within myself for some sort of GUI, but I do not have the time right now :(
Maybe there are other takers?

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #690 on: August 05, 2015, 11:30:12 am »

0.9.0 build for Windows (mingw = dcamprof.exe + libgomp_64-1.dll + HTML & PDF manual / = copy of Torger's web page and the same converted to PDF /) : https://app.box.com/s/z5zu2zsw84tbiof65esgn66d8uz6cz2u
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #691 on: August 05, 2015, 11:40:28 am »

And to get back on topic, I feel an urge rising within myself for some sort of GUI, but I do not have the time right now :(
Maybe there are other takers?
too few users I think... I can see that for example the 0.8.4 build for Windows was downloaded 12 times... OK, some are on Mac (or even Linux/whatever) and some do build themselves... but I 'd guess not more than 50 users at all in a best scenario... fewer are actually using it so regularly...
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #692 on: August 05, 2015, 12:00:50 pm »

When it comes to GUIs I'd prefer to make it myself in my company and in that case it would be a commercial product, but of course anyone's free to make a GUI for the current program following the GPL terms.

Looking at hits on the web page I'd say the interest is quite broad, but few users have even seen a command line so those that actually proceed to download are quite few. If I'd really make a GUI for the complete workflow, which is quite a big job, I think it would see quite many users.

But it's a speciality tool you wouldn't use often, and still requires quite some skill and patience to use even with a GUI so it wouldn't be any big volume software for sure.

The command-line only Argyll has a stable following though, so we'll see in a few years. DCamProf is still new software.

The only part that is truly tedious without a GUI is the subjective design, all other aspects would not really be that much simpler with a GUI. Concerning the design aspect I do it in RawTherapee where you easily can load new profiles. I render with monochrome selections to fine-tune which gamut area an operator should apply on, and once I've done that I start tuning the actual operator values.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 12:13:00 pm by torger »
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viahorizon

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #693 on: August 06, 2015, 06:09:04 am »

Just a note that there might be more people who watch the thread but don't download/participate just yet. Like myself.

It seems like a terrific tool and I'd like to compile it for Mac in the future.
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gallery@viahorizon

WayneLarmon

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #694 on: August 06, 2015, 09:25:49 am »

Quote
Just a note that there might be more people who watch the thread but don't download/participate just yet. Like myself.

I'm in this category.   I've been watching this thread like a hawk, but haven't done anything with DCamProf yet because I'm still working on getting a handle on Argyll recipes.

Yeah, once you have the recipes worked out, there is no real need for a GUI.  (At least for Argyll.)

Wayne

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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #695 on: August 06, 2015, 03:01:18 pm »

I am working on a tutorial article which is supposed to provide a step-by-step guide of how to design a high end profile using DCamProf, but it's still a fairly long way to go. Hopefully within a few months. There's so much to investigate while doing it, sometimes ending up in having to develop yet another feature in the software, that is what makes the time fly...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 03:02:57 pm by torger »
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one/and/a/half

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #696 on: August 07, 2015, 01:45:52 am »

I've compiled the sources on a Mac with OpenMP. Feel free to use it and link it directly.

http://projectsbin.com/resources/dcamprof

torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #697 on: August 11, 2015, 08:22:41 am »

Working on a new release with some new features, but now just ran into a pretty severe limitation of the DNG profile format, or actually the DNG pipeline which applies it.

The DCP LUT is HSV-based. Hue is changed by adding an offset. To interpolate between table entries you calculate an average of the neighbors.

Say if entry A says hue -30 degrees, and entry B says +40 degrees and we want to interpolate exactly inbetween, then we get (-30 +40) / 2 = 5 degrees, just as we would expect. But say entry A is -170 degrees and entry B is +160 degrees, then we get (-170 + 160) / 2 = 5 degrees, which indeed numerically the average but as hue goes around 360 degrees the average should be (360-170 + 160) / 2 = 175 degrees in his case.

These cases could easily be handled when the LUT is applied, the problem is that the DNG reference code doesn't do that, and I assume Adobe Lightroom doesn't either (haven't tested Lightroom yet). This means in practice that hue rotation is limited to the range -90 to +90, which indeed should be enough for making colorimetric corrections, but is an issue when designing looks, even with very mild looks there is a significant risk to run into this discontinuity. The reason for this is that for lower saturation colors hue rotation can be quite huge in the RGB-HSV space despite that there is a small adjustment in visible space.

It's actually not a limitation of the LUT format itself, but how the LUT is applied. Forgetting about hue angle discontinuity is a classic bug when working with a coordinate system like HSV, JCh or other that has hue defined as an angle; been there, done that. It's a bit unfortunate that Adobe has limited their DNG profile format by having this bug in the DNG pipeline, and I'm quite sure that they'd call it a "feature" themselves as you can optimize LUT application if you don't need to care about discontinuity.

I have not yet figured out how to deal with this. If you don't use the look operators it's quite unlikely that you run into it though.

EDIT: you're not limited to +/-90 degrees (although that will guarantee that you are safe), what you need to avoid is discontinuity, that is a jump from say +179 to -179 between table entry neighbors.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 10:06:01 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #698 on: August 11, 2015, 03:55:04 pm »

Just released version 0.9.1

The hue discontinuity problem can't really be worked around, but it's a quite small problem. By adding an RGB blend mode and HSV axis in the look operators it's quite easy to make subjective looks that doesn't trigger hue discontinuity.

DCamProf will now detect hue discontinuity in the make-dcp command and abort if found.

I've added TIFF file versions of the patch matching reports so you can see those diagonally split square patches like various patch tools show.

The test-profile command can now be run without a target if you just want to render plot files, and a new generated gradient file which can be used for visual inspection of smoothness. It's very useful when designing a look using look operators.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #699 on: August 11, 2015, 05:36:37 pm »

0.9.1 build for Windows (mingw = dcamprof.exe + libgomp_64-1.dll + HTML & PDF manual / = copy of Torger's web page and the same converted to PDF /) : https://app.box.com/s/lr054ihziq8iv248a780q67fveo7boqx
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