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Author Topic: Argyll recipes?  (Read 6999 times)

torger

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Argyll recipes?
« on: January 25, 2015, 04:17:20 pm »

I've got excellent results with argyll when calibrating displays, and now when I've got a printer I'm thinking that maybe I should try Argyll for that too. I have the Colormunki instrument, and although the instrument is good as far as I know, the provided software is rather simplistic. I'm thinking that a nice Argyll workflow could lift results to a very good one.

Printer+paper profiling is infinitely more complex than display it seems though, so it would be really really nice to get a complete receipe to follow. I don't mind if it quite a lot of patches, I want a good result, if it's not better than Colormunki-bundled software there's no idea.

I'm using Canon pigment inks, and my assupmtion is that I should use the Canon printer driver, choose a suitable media type for the paper (which I assume control ink laydown and such, as decided by Canon), disable color management, and then use an Argyll RGB-workflow to make a profile. I guess the highest end would be to have a RIP where you have access to each individual ink channel etc, but it seems unfeasible and I really wonder if there's really any noticable gain when the things I print are RGB photos. Accuracy is more important to me than a maximized gamut as I go quite easy on the saturation slider in my photos.

Reading mailing list posts I get confused about CMYK vs RGB though (some indicate that a RGB profile will yield poor results, and CMYK won't work either as the printer has more inks than that), so it would be nice if someone could clear that out too.

I hope that with a properly executed Argyll workflow I will get profiles that gives me better screen/print match than manufacturer-provided profiles, and that the profiles are not too far away from what is the best possible.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 06:22:48 am by torger »
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digitaldog

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2015, 04:21:11 pm »

Printer+paper profiling is infinitely more complex than display it seems though, so it would be really really nice to get a complete receipe to follow.
Not necessarily, at least for RGB output profiles which is how you want to treat this printer. There's no need to deal with CMYK unless you're proofing other CMYK processes.
Can't help you further with Argyll, don't use it. But for RGB paper profiles, should be relatively easy in terms of options, unlike dealing with CMYK.
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howardm

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 07:07:20 pm »

This section pretty much covers it for 'recipe'.  Of course there are trillions of options but most of them
default well or are not needed.

generate the patch set - targen
turn the patch set into charts (2,3,4 pages depending on # of patches) - printtarg
print it
read it in - chartread
create profile - colprof

http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/Scenarios.html#PP1

torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 02:03:15 am »

Thanks! A key was knowing if it's okay to run RGB profiling and I got the answer. I guess what one will do then is to calibrate the printer+driver+paper as a whole which makes sense if the driver is good at mixing inks and laying down the right amount for the paper, and I assume modern Canon and Epson drivers should be good at that. The driver has a number of medias to choose from so I guess the first step is to figure out which media that matches the paper-to-be-profiled best before starting the Argyll workflow.

Found this thread which contains a couple of RGB recipies:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53408.0

Will one reach the printer's full gamut with RGB profiling? I'm assuming that regardless of RGB combination there will never be 100% of just one ink, and that will mean that the full gamut is not used? Not a big deal though...
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RHPS

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 04:26:59 am »

You may find this useful http://www.printerknowledge.com/threads/a-basic-guide-see-post-1-to-setting-up-argyll-cms-profiling-on-your-computer.8570/ Lots of discussion there from people. like you, that are starting out with Argyll. You'll even find some useful batch files that can make the process pretty simple. Be warned though, it's a loooong thread.
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torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2015, 06:00:03 am »

Thanks. With printers getting more and more linear it seems like many think that you can do with less color patches than you did before. Knowing where the limit is is difficult though... so I think I'm going to opt for a somewhat overkill workflow to be on the safe side.

Looking in that thread Colormunki + Argyll like I'm doing seems to be a common combination. It's a cheap way to get a good instrument, but as X-rite differentiates on software the bundled software is much less capable than the instrument itself, and then by using Argyll you can get higher end results. This also counts for screen calibration.

If you get the more expensive spectrophotometers the bundled software is professional grade and then it's better to use that, or at least a lot simpler.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2015, 10:21:07 am »


I'm using Canon pigment inks, and my assupmtion is that I should use the Canon printer driver, choose a suitable media type for the paper (which I assume control ink laydown and such, as decided by Canon), disable color management, and then use an Argyll RGB-workflow to make a profile.

I hope that with a properly executed Argyll workflow I will get profiles that gives me better screen/print match than manufacturer-provided profiles, and that the profiles are not too far away from what is the best possible.
Your starting point should be the paper manufacturer's recommendation for that brand and your printer.  I have an Epson 3880 and this is how I always start my approach when profiling a new paper (quite frankly I don't do this much any more as I've settled on 3-4 papers that I routinely print on).  Unless you are going to write your own print driver you are at Canon's mercy in this regard.  You might be able to tweak some things as you can with Epson but it's not that much in the case of Epson printers.

Argyll will give you good profiles and they 'might' be better than the manufacturer's profiles but you will need to trust your eyes on that. 
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torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 04:05:32 am »

My use case is "fine art printing" of my own photos, so my goal is not really to make the most color accurate profile you could get, it's more important that it presents nice smooth gradients, good shadow detail and predictable contrast. Color need to be accurate enough so it's feasible to fine-tune colors to my liking on the computer and print and then not get any big surprises.

I've tried some Canon fine art paper with Canon profiles and it looks kind of nice, but a bit exaggerated in contrast I think. It would in any case be nice to compare to the results I will get with own custom-made profiles.

Argyll workflows people have used seems often be of the overkill kind... 3000 patches, process for several hours etc. The thing with Argyll is that there's no limit to how complicated you can make your workflows, so it's difficult to know what the a suitable level is.

Currently I'm looking at an Argyll one-pass workflow with only 500 - 700 patches. Although two-pass workflows can do with less patches, I kind of like the one-pass workflow with a fixed patch set, it's a bit more practical. It's typically said you need like 3000 patches or so to make a good profile, but as I'm more into smoothness than accuracy and I think modern printers are more linear than they used to be, I guess a lower amount of patches should be okay.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2015, 07:43:32 am »

@Torger - you don't mention what type of instrument you are going to be using for reading targets.  FWIW, I generate 1848 patch target sets.  This prints out on four letter size pages for reading with an i1Pro.  I include a 51 step B/W patch set as I do a fair amount of monochrome printing.  It takes me about 15 minutes to read the patches.  The key thing is to get a good standard printer evaluation image that will let you look at difficult to print things as well as providing gradient maps.  This way you can use your eyes to check the quality of the profile.
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torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 08:50:10 am »

@Torger - you don't mention what type of instrument you are going to be using for reading targets.

I did in the first post ;), it's the colormunki. It requires a bit larger patches than the i1 and can't do OBA compensation as it has a UV cut filter, but otherwise it's good. Reading charts is very tedious though, it's not exactly fun. 1800 patches would be about 8 sheets of A4 with colormunki patch size, doable but it will take some time... thanks for describing your workflow.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 09:42:01 am by torger »
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howardm

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2015, 09:47:07 am »

I can't find it right now but there was a looong thread on dpreview on optimizing the Argyll parameters for the CM to maximize patch density.  Also thoughts/diagrams as to building a small 'guide' so you can slide the CM along.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2015, 10:03:16 am »

I can't find it right now but there was a looong thread on dpreview on optimizing the Argyll parameters for the CM to maximize patch density.  Also thoughts/diagrams as to building a small 'guide' so you can slide the CM along.
I'm pretty sure that this is the video you are referring to:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoxKe7cBvQ   It was also posted to LuLa a couple of years ago.
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torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2015, 10:04:04 am »

I can't find it right now but there was a looong thread on dpreview on optimizing the Argyll parameters for the CM to maximize patch density.  Also thoughts/diagrams as to building a small 'guide' so you can slide the CM along.

I've found that and tested it, and it sort of works with only 8mm wide patches, but it seems Argyll gets some read errors and I suspect light leaks from neighboring patches, so I've decided to instead go with Argyll "halfsize" CM patches which are about 14mm wide and fits 210 patches per A4 (fullsize is 90). There will be some ink and paper wasting but I think it's acceptable. I'm not going to profile a large number of papers, only one or two.

However, I might get stuck with experimenting with different Argyll settings "just for fun"... if so I think I will publish the results, it can be helpful for others.
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torger

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2015, 10:07:54 am »

I'm pretty sure that this is the video you are referring to:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RoxKe7cBvQ   It was also posted to LuLa a couple of years ago.

I've seen that video and I suspect that 1) the instrument is dragged too fast, colormunki is a bit noisy on dark patches so averaging is helpful (ie drag slower), 2) the small patches and distance the gap may cause disturbance and give less precise measurements.

I cannot know for sure without thorough testing, but seen indications of this in a forum thread where these type of things were used, and also yesterday when I myself tried to read 8mm patches with my instrument.

With argyll half-size patches and slow dragging (to improve measurement precision) you can drag the instrument without a ruler with no problems. Just tape the paper to the table so it does not move.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 10:09:30 am by torger »
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GWGill

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Re: Argyll recepies?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2015, 07:00:33 pm »

I've seen that video and I suspect that 1) the instrument is dragged too fast, colormunki is a bit noisy on dark patches so averaging is helpful (ie drag slower), 2) the small patches and distance the gap may cause disturbance and give less precise measurements.
The "see how many patches I can pack into a single sheet and still read with a ColorMunki" game may be fun as a boast, but I don't think it's terribly useful for actually making good profiles. The ColorMunki is simply not setup for a small aperture or precision guidance. Being a bit more conservative may actually save time, paper and ink in the long run.
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torger

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Re: Argyll recipes?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2015, 02:54:11 am »

Thanks for all the feedback to this thread. I've done lots of test and reading etc the last couple of weeks, and here's my resulting Argyll recipe and related info, I hope it will be useful to others starting out with printing:

http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/argyll-print.html

The summary workflow is:

targen -v -d2 -c <preconditioning.icc> -G -g32 -f840 <name>
printtarg -v -iCM -h -R1 -T300 -p A4 <name>
chartread -v -H -T0.4 <name>
colprof -v -qh -r1.0 -S AdobeRGB.icc -cmt -dpp -D"<description>" <name>
  or    colprof -v -qh -r1.0 -D"<description>" <name>  if you can live with that perceptual/saturation mode works as relative colorimetric with BPC
profcheck -k <name.ti3> <name.icc>

I found that preconditioning is good to use, and you don't really need to make your own preliminary profile as targen only needs a rough idea of the properties, so you can use the maker's icc profile, or even just another profile for a similar paper. What preconditioning does is that the patch distribution is more perceptually optimized, which means you get higher density close to neutrals, and a bit lower density in saturated greens etc, which I think is a good balance. I've added the usual array of gray patches (but not too much overkill like I've seen in many other recipes) to get some additional precision for monochrome prints.

Regarding patch count I chose 840, it makes even 4 A4 sheets with the Colormunki. I made comparisons in the range 210 to 1680 patches and look at other users experiences with this printer type and how many patches professional software has. My conclusion was that 840 is "as good as it gets" without overkill, if you like to have a wider safety margin you would double it to 1680, but it's really tedious to scan with a manual instrument like the Colormunki and the return is tiny.

Then I've added the profcheck step with DE2000 to sanity check the profile. You do get DE numbers directly from colprof, but I prefer to list them in the more perceptually adapted CIE DE2000 unit.

I've increased the smoothing from the default 0.5% to 1.0% in colprof. During testing I found that very little accuracy is lost and in some occasions you get a little bit smoother profile (smoother gradients), and as my primary use case is fine art printing I can lose 0.2 DE if I gain smoothness.

I've made some experiments with perceptual vs relative colorimetric. The original ICC intention says that relative colorimetric should clip hard at gamut boundaries both towards saturated colors and towards shadows, and if you use Argyll's cctiff tool it does exactly that. However, typical printing software like Lightroom and Photoshop will roll off slightly at gamut clipping and will always have BPC enabled which make relative colorimetric similar to a perceptual mode, especially if you have a semi gloss or glossy paper where the gamut is large enough to not clip much. The problem with perceptual mode is that it's entirerly up to the icc profile which needs to make an assumption of the source gamut (AdobeRGB in the above recipe) and it does not always match so it's a bit less well-defined than relative colorimetric. In practice I think there's little place for the perceptual mode and I prefer relative colorimetric. If you generate an ICC profile without a specific perceptual table your profile generation will go much faster.

Concerning OBAs I have not gone too deep with that, but if you have a Colormunki instrument you have UV cut and it's not much you can do about it. It seems to me though that in practice compensating for OBA becomes really messy as it requires a well defined static viewing condition, so I think it's better to use low OBA or OBA-free papers and not care.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 03:05:13 am by torger »
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Cem

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Re: Argyll recipes?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 03:04:27 am »

Thanks a lot torger, that is an excellent how-to page you've created. I will certainly make good use of it.
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