Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Kyle Jackson on July 08, 2022, 12:08:43 pm
-
Hi, wondering if anyone has any suggestions for this situation... I am a Z3100 owner and I have the chance to get a Z3200ps rev B essentially for free, but the owner tried some random non-hp heads and inks in it and "can't get it to work anymore" {face palm}
My question is what's the best way to flush that crap out of the printer so I can put in proper HP heads and inks? If I simply install new ones, my concern is there would still be some of the old ink in the tubes that would get pushed through the new heads, and that doesn't sound good for the new heads. So should I purge the old ink from the system entirely somehow first?
Searched around and couldn't find any info on how to "decontaminate" a printer like this. Found lots of info about purging out "stale" HP ink/heads of course (which I've done lots with my z3100), and lots of people asking about using non-hp inks, but so far I found no info about how to fix it after somebody did that to their printer.
Thanks!
-
There used to be third party Z3200 ink carts that I believe were refillable that you could put flush fluid in. Here you go, just found them on eBay, don’t know if they are available elsewhere…
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193085139824
. There are also third party Chinese inks that functioned normally but did not have good longevity . If that’s what was in there they weren’t gunk and if you put good Hp inks and heads in there you could just print color targets with plan bond paper to flush it all out. The cone piezo flush solution works really well but those damn bright pink dyes in them take forever to get out of the light channels like yellow.
Might try MIS Associates ( ink supply.com ) . If it were me I’d buy this and the refillable carts .
https://www.inksupply.com/product-details/pn/MIS-FLUID-GL.html?printerID=0
John
Hi, wondering if anyone has any suggestions for this situation... I am a Z3100 owner and I have the chance to get a Z3200ps rev B essentially for free, but the owner tried some random non-hp heads and inks in it and "can't get it to work anymore" {face palm}
My question is what's the best way to flush that crap out of the printer so I can put in proper HP heads and inks? If I simply install new ones, my concern is there would still be some of the old ink in the tubes that would get pushed through the new heads, and that doesn't sound good for the new heads. So should I purge the old ink from the system entirely somehow first?
Searched around and couldn't find any info on how to "decontaminate" a printer like this. Found lots of info about purging out "stale" HP ink/heads of course (which I've done lots with my z3100), and lots of people asking about using non-hp inks, but so far I found no info about how to fix it after somebody did that to their printer.
Thanks!
-
Hi John, thanks for that info. I don't know yet what brand of ink and heads they tried, they just said "cheap ink from China" (and I haven't seen the printer in person yet).
So it seems to be a choice between pushing the remainder of this unknown ink thru brand new hp heads, or pushing the cleaning fluid through brand new heads. Either way I'm concerned about contaminating a brand new set of heads ($700 in Canada). I just don't know what's in those inks they bought, I mean it could be water and food dye, who knows (ok, probably not, but you get the point).
And it's obviously going to burn a bunch of good HP ink and paper before I can be sure it's delivering pure hp ink consistently enough again to trust it for cal/profiling.
I also reached out to LPS and they also suggested either simply running the old ink out through new HP heads, or using the syringe primer tool to draw the old ink out first. The latter sounds like a good option to me, because it will minimize any mystery ink getting into brand new heads. I would just need to figure out how much ink I need to draw from each line to be sure the old ink is gone and the new ink has reached the head carriage.
-
If you can push the old ink out first that would be ideal.
I’ve never heard of cloned Z heads, that’s a new one on me.
Hi John, thanks for that info. I don't know yet what brand of ink and heads they tried, they just said "cheap ink from China" (and I haven't seen the printer in person yet).
So it seems to be a choice between pushing the remainder of this unknown ink thru brand new hp heads, or pushing the cleaning fluid through brand new heads. Either way I'm concerned about contaminating a brand new set of heads ($700 in Canada). I just don't know what's in those inks they bought, I mean it could be water and food dye, who knows (ok, probably not, but you get the point).
And it's obviously going to burn a bunch of good HP ink and paper before I can be sure it's delivering pure hp ink consistently enough again to trust it for cal/profiling.
I also reached out to LPS and they also suggested either simply running the old ink out through new HP heads, or using the syringe primer tool to draw the old ink out first. The latter sounds like a good option to me, because it will minimize any mystery ink getting into brand new heads. I would just need to figure out how much ink I need to draw from each line to be sure the old ink is gone and the new ink has reached the head carriage.
-
Not sure I would be too quick to shade all the third party inks. Have had the z3200 going on 4 years and maybe use it for a print or two every other month. (Backup to our Epson fleet)
We started using the LD inks and they just last and last with no issues. I have maybe done a half dozen nozzle checks and two cleans in four years total. Wish my Epson's ran like that.
-
Maybe someone knows how much ink is lost in the purge action to prime the tubes on a new printer. The manual says that the cartridges have to be over 88% filled for that, otherwise the purge action will not happen. So about 100ml per color channel. However the inner tube radius is about 0,12cm so 0,0452cm2 area, length approx 240cm, 11ml would be enough to fill one tube.
Pulling HP inks through per tube. Use a 60ML syringe with a tube to a salvaged head connector that connects to one tube pin in the head carriage. Not both pins connected! I kept the orange plugs that come with a new printer and made them open for the job, see the images added. The black one is a salvaged head one that can be attached to a tube as easily.
On the other side of that ink channel you plug in a HP carts that contains at least 30ml (cart should weigh about 80 grams). Don't pull the 30ml through but less. Too much pulled through and it is possible you suck air in the tube.
I would not pull the old ink out first and then bring in the HP original ink, which would be possible if you added just a cleaned connector of a cart in the cart bay. Nor would I bring in other fluids to 'clean' the ink channel.
Actually I suspect a recently purchased Z3200 has some third party inks in its tubes, it came with new extra third party carts but only one on the machine. My choice is to print my own images on that machine till its fit for customers, with HP inks.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
-
It all depends on whether after some cleanings you have no ink coming through the nozzle check patterns. For the channels that are not coming through at all I’d put in some of my expired heads to see if the heads are what are clogged before I start running flush fluid through it. But I have a lot of old heads in case I ever needed to do that.
In my case, I had a Z3100 with a broken belt . I quit using it for a year and was going to use it for parts. It was turned off for over a year A great HP tech came over to service my Z3200 and convinced me I should fix the Z 3100 while he was there. He accidentally broke something on the carriage so he replaced the entire carriage unit at the same time. I think he charged me $300.00 for all of that and I have like a new printer. That was a rare situation .he didn’t want to see me abandon it.
Anyway, I was concerned that I’d have ink dried in the lines and it would be a big messy deal to restore it. He said no, the lines are completely sealed from the heads to the ink carts. He was right, I only had to replace two heads and they were out of date anyway. This is not true with Epson printers where ink often does dry in the lines if just sitting there where even flush fluid might not clear them.
If you don’t have any old heads you might be able to find some cheaply on eBay.
If this is decent third party ink it might be just a matter of replacing heads that are clogged and running cheap paper through it .
Maybe someone knows how much ink is lost in the purge action to prime the tubes on a new printer. The manual says that the cartridges have to be over 88% filled for that, otherwise the purge action will not happen. So about 100ml per color channel. However the inner tube radius is about 0,12cm so 0,0452cm2 area, length approx 240cm, 11ml would be enough to fill one tube.
Pulling HP inks through per tube. Use a 60ML syringe with a tube to a salvaged head connector that connects to one tube pin in the head carriage. Not both pins connected! I kept the orange plugs that come with a new printer and made them open for the job, see the images added. The black one is a salvaged head one that can be attached to a tube as easily.
On the other side of that ink channel you plug in a HP carts that contains at least 30ml (cart should weigh about 80 grams). Don't pull the 30ml through but less. Too much pulled through and it is possible you suck air in the tube.
I would not pull the old ink out first and then bring in the HP original ink, which would be possible if you added just a cleaned connector of a cart in the cart bay. Nor would I bring in other fluids to 'clean' the ink channel.
Actually I suspect a recently purchased Z3200 has some third party inks in its tubes, it came with new extra third party carts but only one on the machine. My choice is to print my own images on that machine till its fit for customers, with HP inks.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
-
Thanks so much John, Ernst, and Dan! :) Sorry for the slow reply, there was a nationwide internet outage and then I was driving across country all day yesterday.
John, you're probably right about "clone heads". I probably misunderstood the owner. They basically said "it needs new heads and inks, they tried some cheap stuff they bought online, and it didn't like it". I assumed that meant heads too, but I think you're right, it's probably still hp heads and just non-hp ink.
Ernst, great idea using those caps that way! Wish I still had those. In my case I think it is probably easier for me to buy the priming syringe pump that LPS sells.
Dan, I'm waiting to hear what ink the owner used. It sounds like it was a bad match and it wouldn't print for them. I'd rather just remove it, and that way I can rely on consistent print profiles, etc.
Originally I assumed I would install new HP ink, then use the syringe to pull out the old ink until the new ink reaches the carriage, which is kind of a guess how much to pull, then install the new heads and run a bunch of diags, purge plots, etc until the output was consistent. But now I wonder about this idea: what if I use the syringe first with no ink carts installed? I would pull the old ink thru until I get nothing but air. Yes the lines are now full of air, but ideally almost empty of old ink. Next I install the new hp ink carts and then use the syringe again to pull the air out until the new ink reaches the carriage. My understanding is this is the same method as priming a printer after new empty tubes are installed. By using this method it could reduce the potential for any mixing of the old and new inks in the tubes. Also I won't have to guess how much ink to pull, it will be obvious when the new ink reaches the carriage. That could help reduce waste of new ink.
I could do the initial test/purge prints with the old heads if they are still working, and then switch to the new heads. I like the suggestion to keep the old heads afterward in case they are helpful for stuff like this in the future. I've had good luck recovering blocked heads in my Z3100. Only the troublesome MK-R had to be replaced 3 times..., and now that I recently learned how to open and clean the capping station, I think those MKR "failures" were preventable.
Thanks so much! :)
-
One thing I have done in the past in a pinch is to remove a problem head and put a solution of half distilled water and half alcohol on a small plastic container and soak the heads in that. That has worked for me and others. You just don’t want the water level to submerge the electronic sensor area.
-
One thing I have done in the past in a pinch is to remove a problem head and put a solution of half distilled water and half alcohol on a small plastic container and soak the heads in that. That has worked for me and others. You just don’t want the water level to submerge the electronic sensor area.
Yup I've done similar, especially trying to salvage MK-R heads, and had some success with it (not always). For this printer I found for sale, I honestly have no idea yet what is the state of the heads, especially with mystery ink in them, so I'm assuming to buy all new heads to be sure of good results. But if I can restore at least some of the old heads, by purging, cleaning, etc, then that would be lucky bonus, and maybe they might be worth keeping on the shelf for a future emergency. I'm just not counting on it tho when doing the math of what it will cost to get this machine running again. I think I should budget for all new heads and make my decision based on that.
Cheers
-
Update: I finally bought this used z3200ps I found. I'm slowly working through testing it out, cleaning heads, etc. I'm across the country so I'm literally doing this in the back of my truck lol :D just puttering with it for something to do until I get it back home.
It came with a full set of original hp heads and inks, plus a full set of "non-hp heads and inks". It turns out the "non-hp heads" are actually "remanufactured" hp heads. All the original hp stickers have been removed and replaced by ones with the name "Best" on them, and the hp logo that is stamped into the plastic on the bottom of the heads have been "burned" off (see pics). This is the first time I've encountered re-manufactured hp70 heads.
The printer seems to be rejecting these refurbished heads, and if I understand correctly, the owner was never able to get it to print with them installed. They tried 3 of them, including a hp70 MK-R head instead of a hp73 chromatic red head. Personally I don't plan to use them, so I've removed them and re-installed the original hp heads, and am slowly working through the process to get the printer to accept them.
Similarly for the "non-hp inks", it looks like they only tried 2 of them (grey and gloss enhancer). There is no brand name on the inks, so they don't appear to be the same "Best" brand as the refurbished heads. I don't think any of this non-hp ink ever got into the machine since the printer kept rejecting the refurb heads. This is good news as it means I probably don't need to waste time purging lines, or at most only have to purge 2 of them. The other 10 are still all original hp ink. The hp ink is not very old (2019-ish), so lots of good supplies to work with.
I think putting in new hp heads might be all I need, if I can't get the old hp heads unclogged. Hopeful that's the only thing wrong with it.
-
Not sure I would be too quick to shade all the third party inks. Have had the z3200 going on 4 years and maybe use it for a print or two every other month. (Backup to our Epson fleet)
We started using the LD inks and they just last and last with no issues. I have maybe done a half dozen nozzle checks and two cleans in four years total. Wish my Epson's ran like that.
I've been running 2 identical Z300s for six years using Macro Enter inks. Each printer does about 2000 prints annually. I buy the ink in litre bottles and use refillable 280ml tanks from Alibaba. I also use OEM but "expired" printheads I buy new in unopened HP packaging on eBay for a fraction of what they cost through conventional channels. I've converted the printers once or twice back to OEM inks for troubleshooting purposes (the problem was never the inks). While I can't tell the difference between OEM and Macro Enter inks once they hit the page, the X factor is admittedly the aftermarket ink's longevity. One way or the other, I have saved many thousands of dollars over the years.
-
Hey all, necro-ing my own thread here to give an update. The info may be useful to others who find it later...
So when I bought this rescue Z3200 printer in 2022 it was rejecting printheads, and because supply shortages I couldn't get new ones. Then a bunch of life happened, 3 moves, printer sat in storage for 1.5 years until few weeks ago. Fast forward to today and happy to report it's running again and seems to be perfectly fine now! 🥳 (Tho I'll probably give it a new belt soon.)
TL;DR on the "fix" - purge air from ink tubes, 5 brand new heads, added new seals to the heads, used really full cartridges, and done!
So I originally started this thread because I thought the printer had non-HP ink in it and I wanted to remove it. Since the previous owner couldn't get it to run because it rejected every head they tried, I suspect none of the non-HP ink ever got into the machine. (And even if some did, they only tried the grey and gloss enhancer.) So I put all the HP heads and inks back in it, but it kept refusing printheads -- which ones varied, but it was basically all of them, sometimes all at once.
LPS Computer has a great video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsZ1Dqye_Lo) explaining this could be caused by air in the in inktubes, so I used their purge kit to pull any air from the lines. At least 2 or 3 definitely had quite a bit of air. But it still wouldn't accept the printheads after.
The printer passed every onboard diagnostics / service test / calibration in the service manual that I tried, which was basically all of them.
I then started testing some of the heads in my working Z3100, and vice versa. The Z3100 accepted most of the heads except 1 that it declared faulty. And I could see that the Z3100 heads I tried in the Z3200 were leaving ink on the service station, so I knew ink was flowing thru them from the printer.
This is when I learned 2 great tips for how to assess printhead health!
1) Weight! A full printhead weighs 60g. Any head significantly less than that has air in it. And air will eventually kill the printhead (thermal head burns up without ink to cool it). So by simply weighing your heads today you can assess your printheads' health. I suggest we should all be doing this 1-2 times per year, especially on low-use printers that need using the "Clean Printheads" function a lot whenever we start using them again (I speculate that this accelerates air admission into the printheads).
2) Printhead status/error codes! On the printer menu, go to the Info submenu, then Printheads. Each printhead (as well as previous printheads) will have an error code and a last status. These codes are explained in the Service Manual. For example I have an old MK-R head that the printer said was faulty. Its error code says 16402, which = codes 16384 + 16 + 2 in the service manual ( = CS comms failure + extremely high temperature + continuity failure, respectively). And its Last Status is 6, which = codes 4 + 2 in the service manual ( = shutdown, not used + continuity failure). So basically, it's fried!
I speculate that when there is 1 or more heads in the printer that are actually faulty (electrically), it can cause issues that lead to the printer randomly rejecting many/all of the heads, *including the good ones*! Without these error codes it's a guessing game which heads are bad, but with the codes and the service manual you can quickly see which heads are actually faulty!
In my case the combination of weighing, checking error codes, and testing the Z3200's heads in the Z3100, revealed that only 1 head didn't have air in it (that head was MINT actually), the rest all had significant air in them. Two I tested in the Z3100 printed only 1 colour. One was faulty (fried). So I ordered 5 brand new heads. I also ordered some ink cartridges so that I had a full set on hand that was roughly 75% or more full for each colour. See pic -- this is the fullest (and newest) ink set I've ever had since like 2010! :D MK the lowest, and only LM, LC, and PK "expired".
Incidentally, the error codes also confirmed for me that the E-G head did NOT have any non-HP ink used in it (because there is a flag code specifically for that, too).
The rest is anti-climatic... Powered up, installed the "full" cartridges when prompted, installed the heads (**with the new seal kit added from LPS Computers that's shown in the video I linked), everything accepted! Printhead alignment plot, diag plot, 2 onboard sample prints, all good! Pic of LPS seals on a head, and first print from the printer attached.
This approach of all new heads + full inks has been suggested countless times here, but what I think is revealed here (at least for me) is better informed insight into what is actually wrong. Once there is air in the heads, things are going downhill. And once there is a failed head in there, the printer can start throwing tantrums. But knowing the weights of the heads, as well as what their error codes/status are saying, will help you find out which heads are actually "good" and which are "bad", so that you're not needlessly replacing *every* head.
And those heads with air are not lost causes. They can be purged and re-primed with ink and probably run well again. (Actual faulty ones are toast, though.) So you can try like I did, all new heads if you want, and set aside the "light" ones for purging / priming to keep as spares. Or you can try purging/priming first to see if that's all it needed.
I tested this on one of my Z3100's old MK-R heads, using the purge kit from InkOwl (video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Xd3w0cK9c , which is actually where I learned about weighing them!). To conserve as much ink as possible and do 2 tasks at once, I used the LPS purge kit to remove any air from the printer ink tube as well as some ink, and then I put that ink into the InkOwl priming funnel. Clean the LPS syringe and repeat for the second colour in the head (even faster if you have 2 syringes!). Then use the InkOwl syringe tool to pull any air out of the head and prime it with ink. My MK-R sucked in a lot of red ink, so red had a lot of air, and brought in very little black ink, so black had little air. Brought the head from about 49g up to 59g, pretty good! Pic shows the setup (the big yellow clamp is just to keep it from tipping over, that open funnel makes me really nervous!! 😬 )
Unfortunately it was only good for practice, because the head I used was a faulty one (I didn't check the code!), so the printer rejected it. But it left 2 nice lines when blotted on paper towel so I know the nozzles were flowing good once I added the ink to them. I'll eventually try this will all my "airheads" to extend their lives.
Anyhow epic post but there's a lot of good info here that will hopefully help you monitor your printhead health proactively *before* things start failing, as well as extend the life of your heads..., which is critical for Z3100 owners now that HP has stopped producing HP 70 Red ink and printheads. (And the day will come too soon when it's the Z3200's time...)
Cheers!
-
interesting! ; just had this problem with a printhead- 50 grams and no ink in one channel...
too bad the shipping costs are 20$ to europe for this useful purge kit from InkOwl ...
-
interesting! ; just had this problem with a printhead- 50 grams and no ink in one channel...
too bad the shipping costs are 20$ to europe for this useful purge kit from InkOwl ...
Hi Pieter, I've seen several other companies online and in YouTube videos that sell these printhead priming kits, so you can probably find one with better shipping options for you. It seems like any company that sells aftermarket ink also sells these (maybe they all use the same manufacturer). I chose InkOwl specifically because they have very cheap shipping from within Canada (which is hard to find!), and it didn't include a lot of plastic bottles, etc that I didn't need.
Also I found that searching specifically for HP 70 or 73 had limited results, but then I learned there are many other DesignJet printheads that are similar or identical to ours, so searching for HP DesignJet in general might have better results. That's actually how I found that video from InkOwl, it was titled as being for HP 88 and 940 heads. According to the InkOwl website (https://www.inkowl.com/inkjet/ink-refill-tools/hp/printhead-repair-tool-for-hp-70-72-73-88-91-761-762-771-773-774-940/P5035/) that kit is compatible with the following HP DesignJet printheads: "HP 70, 72, 73, 88, 91, 761, 762, 771, 773, 774, 940".
You may also have similar shipping issues for the LPS purge kit, since their shipping via UPS is much more expensive (at least it is here in Canada). I see a lot of syringes from these same aftermarket ink suppliers for refilling ink cartridges that look kinda similar, but I think the tips are different than the ones LPS sells for purging air from the ink tubes. Attached is a pic of the LPS tip; note the side hole as well as the clear seal that seals against ink supply tube fitting in the printhead carriage (ignore the lint, haha!).
Either way, I think the shipping costs of these tools is still wayyy cheaper than new heads and ink (or a new printer in the case of the Z3100, because the MK-R head is discontinued by HP).
Cheers!
-
Not sure I would be too quick to shade all the third party inks. Have had the z3200 going on 4 years and maybe use it for a print or two every other month. (Backup to our Epson fleet)
We started using the LD inks and they just last and last with no issues. I have maybe done a half dozen nozzle checks and two cleans in four years total. Wish my Epson's ran like that.
Hi, so I'm going to warn here that LD Products seems to be a pretty terrible retailer (today in 2024). I first heard of them through here and I ordered an HP printhead from them (legitimate sealed original) that shows on their website as in stock for immediate shipping. Nothing from them since, no shipping notice, no status update, no email responses, no phone answers (just voicemail). Since then I've found gobs of negative reviews online reporting similar, for example https://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/ldproducts.com
I've filed a PayPal dispute to get money returned.
-
Sounds more up to date then my experience which was 3-4 years ago.
-
Sounds more up to date then my experience which was 3-4 years ago.
Yes I saw that sentiment in several of the comments, that people had used them for years and they were much better than now. Maybe it's financial distress, who knows.
Coincidentally they finally replied last night (after I submitted the PayPal dispute), told me the item isn't in stock and it's on back-order. I told them I'm cancelling anyway -- I only ordered from them because the website said it was in stock ready to ship. (It's a discontinued item so back-orders will never be filled.)
I've learned in recent years that a lot of shifty retailers will use fake "in stock" claims on their site to grab orders. This was one of the first times I didn't confirm it directly before ordering. (Although even then, I've recently had a scammy seller lie to me and take the order anyway..., I'm re-learning to check reviews first!)
-
Hello Kyle, thank you for the info about the printheads - after 18 years using the printers ( z3100 then Z3200 now) For the first time I recovered a printhead.
Its weight of my LM-LC head was diminshed to 46 ! gram and was not accepted anymore ( replace printhead!) Now after filling- and that was very easy- it weighs 64 gram- exactly like the new one i just bought.
It prints fine now as it always did before it lost so much ink.
My idea is that at every insertion of a different printhead some ink from the head is used to install it. So then printheads get more empty if you do it more often.
I think HP's idea is that you install a printhead once - and replace it once it it malfunctioning. Then everything works fine.
Naturally airbubbles in the inktubes are another cause.
-
Hey Pieter, glad to hear that it worked!! 🥳
Yeah 46g is pretty much empty, for both colours. I think the lightest I weighed was ~43g and it was fried.
The 64g full weight seems high tho. I've seen 61g max (which surprised me). Did you weight it with the orange caps installed? My full one with caps weighs 64g.
You could be right about some air getting in during head changes. I've also seen it suggested that simple atmospheric air pressure changes cause it (tho my understanding of the air bladders inside the head, which are connected to a vent hole on top, is that they compensate for air pressure changes). I also wonder if the "clean printheads" process adds air over time if it is used a lot (and to lesser extent, the regular maintenance cycle). When the heads are on the capping station, the priming pump pulls ink and air into the discharge. If there is any kind of leak anywhere, such as the seals in the carriage, the priming pump suction might be pulling more air into the head than normally happens otherwise. With a bad seal, using "clean printheads" frequently might actually = "drain printheads" lol. I'm curious to see if the LPS seals I added to both printers will slow down the air issue.
-
I just brought all my printheads to 58 gram or more...the ones in the machines ( have 2) and all the printheads that I had that were not printing well any more;
a total of 12+14 is 26 printheads ! about 10 were OK tot start with.
I think i have recovered about 11 heads... some heads had blocked channels or the colours channels were mixed.So About 5 printheads were beyond recovery.
Hve done it all at once otherwise it is just so much more work. (starting up and cleaning all the ink colours over and over again.)
Foremost I think this is a good way to keep your printheads in shape if they perform well but lost too much ink. Below 55 gram is a good limit.
From now on I wll check the weight of the printheads about every half year and do a refill if necessary.
-
Great result, Pieter! 🥳 And wow I'm impressed you did that many! 😮 My priming supplies are still scattered all over the table because I didn't finish them months ago lol... It definitely takes some time and patience to work through them.
Yeah I think blocked ones definitely need extra work, things like soaking the nozzles, or more severe options like a head cleaning fluid to help clear out the clogs.
Ones with mixed channels might be okay after printing enough with them (purge ink plots etc). My current theory is that colour mixing happens by reverse flow at the nozzle when one colour is very low or empty. In other words, there isn't an actual internal leak inside between the 2 compartments. Having seen them disassembled, I think it would require something very severe to cause an internal crack/break, like a car driving over it. So usually the mixed colour disappears in the first few inches of a print, indicating it's a small temporary thing. Priming it can help pull that out, and then running some prints to get fresh ink flowing should clear the rest out. Should know pretty quick if it's working ok. MK-R seems to have this problem the most in mine.
Although there's no hard rule, I think 55g is still too low for me. The problem is if only one colour is low. Empty is about 44g so there's there's a max of about 16g of usable ink, so only 7~8g per colour. If one side is missing 5g, then only 2~3g left. Since they are water based, roughly speaking 1g is almost 1mL of ink. So there could be only 2mL left in one side, which is a really small amount. The site/video where I first learned about weighing suggested 57g or less needs to be primed, so 58g+ is "ok". I mean they can obviously print at low levels, but the risk is getting one too low and causing permanent thermal damage to the head, plus just encountering other issues with ink delivery / colour consistency. So I keep working at it until I get to 60g (I think I stopped one of my very first ones at 59g). Some heads seem to take more effort than others to get fully primed.
Amazing you got so many going again tho, nice to have spares!
-
If you do a calibration and one ink is missing then you know.
Then it is time to weigh it and do a refill. That will be below 50 grams i think...
I recovered a 47 gram head that prints wonderful now., but at 47 gram it disrupted the calibration by the missing ink and on re-entry it was now rejected by the printer.
it is just a matter of not keep using a 47 gram printhead. Then it will be fried.
My mixed ink was Grey in Gloss-Enhancer so your gloss layer is grayish. Maybe you are right en putting more clean GE through the head will solve the problem ; I can try.
I give up on blocked ones. it is more than just some nozzles; it is a complet block somehow.
Yes, indeed ideally there should be no air in the cartridge-tubes-head system- the new printheads come completely filled.
-
I was more concerned about the cause of the heads getting too low in ink capacity that I first tinkered an ink suction tool from a small vacuum pump + an empty wine bottle + tubes + a salvaged ink line connector needle. With that I could suck the head carriage tubes fast of any air there, little ink lost as the thin transparent tube shows the ink flow fast. The heads that I put back had soft food gradient tube parts put over the pins (6mm outer diameter, 1mm inner diameter) to make a better seal. Two Z3200 printers done that way. Seems to work well.
For flawed heads that I stored I do have some questions on refilling them. I tried to refill just the LG side of a too light PK LG head by using a salvaged cartridge connector plug that was inserted in the end of a PE tube of almost 150cm long filled with LG ink. My thought was that the additional pressure of 150cm ink column would be enough to get the ink in. It did not. I know I need a 10 meter column to get the same pressure difference a complete vacuum would give but is that much needed?
That double funnel type, do you need to fill both sides with the respective inks in order to get it all working? I understand that the syringe vacuum applied is all over the head nozzles and can not select just one ink channel but if the input side pin of one channel is blocked with halve an orange stop (halve the orange twin type that comes with a new head), would that work to fill the other side? It would be nice to just refill/reflow one ink channel, especially for heads like the Chromatic Red / MK where MK ink got into the Red side, pulling enough Chromatic Red through would be better than trying to get rid of it by printing red prints.
I have been into an old head and there are some parts near the inlets that may require both vacuum and ink supply to get it working. The sieves in the separate ink channel paths are quite large but could also get blocked too much for a rescue.
-
For flawed heads that I stored I do have some questions on refilling them. I tried to refill just the LG side of a too light PK LG head by using a salvaged cartridge connector plug that was inserted in the end of a PE tube of almost 150cm long filled with LG ink. My thought was that the additional pressure of 150cm ink column would be enough to get the ink in. It did not. I know I need a 10 meter column to get the same pressure difference a complete vacuum would give but is that much needed?
That double funnel type, do you need to fill both sides with the respective inks in order to get it all working? I understand that the syringe vacuum applied is all over the head nozzles and can not select just one ink channel but if the input side pin of one channel is blocked with halve an orange stop (halve the orange twin type that comes with a new head), would that work to fill the other side? It would be nice to just refill/reflow one ink channel, especially for heads like the Chromatic Red / MK where MK ink got into the Red side, pulling enough Chromatic Red through would be better than trying to get rid of it by printing red prints.
Hi Ernst, I'd be interested in trying a softer seal material like you found. I was surprised that the ones sold by LPS Computers are rather hard. Maybe it still works, I don't know. What I found was that the heads sit higher in the printer carriage with those seals, like 1~2 mm. That makes me wonder about the effect on print qual. Also one of the heads gets rejected frequently (usually after a power reset) and wants to be reseated. I think it's not making proper electrical contact because of the seals. I cut the seals on that head slightly smaller but it's very difficult to get a clean cut surface on them. It seems to have fixed the head rejection, but now I doubt the seals work correctly because of the rough cut surface. I ordered some more from LPS but with shipping costs to Canada these things are ridiculously expensive, so interested in finding a better option to make them.
Omg yes I think there is no way a cartridge will fill with static pressure like that instead of a vacuum, at least not within our lifespan lol. Those nozzle holes are nearly microscopic. Pulling the pump syringe on these requires a lot of force just to move the plunger a little bit. You just hold the pressure as best as you can until it subsides enough to pull a little bit more. It is not a fast process. If you release the plunger it will actually snap back to lower position, there's a lot of suction. The stuff appearing in the syringe is a very bubbly foam, it's a lot of air. Some of that air appears to be suction leakage around the nozzle cap rather than air just from the printhead. It takes some practice to get used to it.
I thought about making a non-funnel method to refill the head directly from the printer head carriage with some tubing and connectors for the ports, to help reduce ink waste. But I haven't tried that experiment yet. A cleaning method between colours would need to be sorted out.
Yes the funnel method needs ink on both sides, otherwise the other side would just draw air into the printhead. I thought about a nozzle cap that covers only one side, but the 2 rows are so close together, and the suction is so strong, it might not be possible. I also thought about a plug over the inlet pin on one side, but then that would create a very strong vacuum inside the head that might break some things. The heads have delicate-looking bladders/bags in them that are connected to atmosphere through vent ports on the top of the head (to compensate for atmospheric pressure change I believe). Applying vacuum to a head with the inlet pin blocked might cause those to over-inflate and cause damage. I also worry about the seals between the ink compartments and printhead top that a strong vacuum might possibly pull out of position. Maybe it would be okay but it's difficult to know, and can't see if there is damage inside afterward. So it seems that accepting that there will be some ink wasted in the process is just the cost of saving the head (plus other ink, paper, etc in fighting print quality issues with an "airhead").
So in your MK-R example, just put ink in both sides of the funnel. Odds are there is air in the MK side too and will end up drawing ink in to both sides. The MK contamination into R is mostly at the nozzle itself I believe (and the R into the MK side, I've seen both...), so it should clear up when the fresh ink is pulled through the head.
Also make sure to check the error codes/status in the service manual first to make sure then printhead isn't fried, to avoid wasting effort refilling a dead head (like I did lol!).
-
All sound remarks, will buy the dual funnel etcetera but try the vacuum pump tool instead of the syringe.
-
my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.
at Ernst: 150 cm is not 150 ml pressure for the ink and tube have some adhesive power too.
-
my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.
at Ernst: 150 cm is not 150 ml pressure for the ink and tube have some adhesive power too.
Pieter, the tube for that ink column has a 6mm inner diameter, capillary force does not play a role here.
-
my chinese filling product only can be used for oneley one ink at a time. And it worked.
on the input side only one channel is filled - on the output side a rubber gasket makes shure that ony one channel is sucked.
I need some manual pressure on the oulet tot be sure the connection on the head is working well.
Interesting! Do you have a link for that nozzle cap? I like that idea of plugging the nozzles much better than plugging the input, so there is no vacuum inside the printhead to damage the air bladders.
-
I used this one :
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005003178137702.html
in the rubber that you put on the printhead there is only one litlle hole on on side. So only one side of the funnel is in use ( i use a blackink side and a colour side)
I just did some more filling : my MK-R heads were not filled with MK , but they were filled with red recently:
I sucked some MK from the tubes after removing the head- there was no air in it
with the MK ink i filled the 56 gram head and came out with about 60 gram.
perfect nozzels with all my 2 printers now; ... knock knock
My idea is that if there is air in the tubes it will end up in the printheads.
so the tubes will remain filled - unless some air comes in while changing ink cartridges or when it is empty but the printer somehow wants to suck ink anyway..
-
Just bought second hand 2 'new' 2022 printheads for 70€
have no bad experience with neither old ink- or old printheads... so that makes life cheaper.
-
Thanks for the link Pieter! Ok yes I see that rubber insert in the nozzle cap is different from mine. Mine has single open area with a big hole in the middle, so no way to block one side. I'm going to get one of these to try instead so I can do one colour at a time.
The long needle in that kit is for ink cartridges?
Congrats on the successful refill!
LPS Computer's theory is that the air gets into the tubes over time because of small leakage at the seals where the printhead pins plug into the ports on the carriage, so they sell those seals for those mentioned earlier.
Wherever the air comes from, I think it increases if we do more headclean cycles. The printer puts the heads on the capping station and the priming pump applies suction to the nozzles (similar to how we refill them). So if air has a way in, the suction brings more of it into the system.
-
...
The long needle in that kit is for ink cartridges?
..
Was surprised with that long needle too - is is a tube -not sharp end:
probably the Chinese know about problems that we overlooked...
-
Was surprised with that long needle too - is is a tube -not sharp end:
probably the Chinese know about problems that we overlooked...
Pieter,
is there a small hole at the side of that syringe tube or really at the flat point of the tube?
For the cartridges to suck out ink it does not matter that much, the needle/tube stays within the thicker polyethylene part and it will be hard to push through a wall there even if it had a sharp point. However a sharp point might make a second hole in the connector seal or wear the original hole out, not good if the cartridge has to be used again. I use a normal syringe needle cut shorter with a dremel disc and the remaining edge softened with fine sandpaper. Pull out the ink of near empty carts and keep the vacuum on while withdrawing the needle.
-
Pieter,
is there a small hole at the side of that syringe tube or really at the flat point of the tube?
For the cartridges to suck out ink it does not matter that much, the needle/tube stays within the thicker polyethylene part and it will be hard to push through a wall there even if it had a sharp point. However a sharp point might make a second hole in the connector seal or wear the original hole out, not good if the cartridge has to be used again. I use a normal syringe needle cut shorter with a dremel disc and the remaining edge softened with fine sandpaper. Pull out the ink of near empty carts and keep the vacuum on while withdrawing the needle.
a flat point, but you are right i also re-use the inlets from old prinheads
If you cut them loose leaving the plastic that permits to go deeper than necessary you can attach them to a injection tube. As you also did.
-
Can you also refill a cartridge using that needle? A while ago I saw some cartridge refill tools/kits and they had a long needle like that. I didn't look at the details though because I was searching for something else.
Does a cartridge have a check valve in it, like a spring-loaded ball bearing seal to keep ink from leaking out? I'm curious about this partly because it relates to using a syringe to add/remove ink from a cartridge, but also because I wonder if purging air from the ink supply tubes at the printhead carriage is actually trying to pull suction against a closed check valve in the ink cartridge. I've notice some air pull attempts with the LPS syringe have strong resistance and then it suddenly "pops" and air/ink starts flowing into the syringe. It made me wonder if I was fighting a check valve in the ink cartridge, and creating a lot of suction inside the ink tubing. Made me worry about damaging something, or drawing in more air thru another seal somewhere in the ink tubing connections.
The operation of the ink cartridges and the role of the "bongos" is still a mystery to me. I mean it's not clear to me what actually drives the ink from the cartridges to the heads when needed, and stops it from flowing when it's not.
-
Never have tied to fill a cartridge, don't know.
The bongos probably push the rubber to press out some ink I guess?
-
Can you also refill a cartridge using that needle? A while ago I saw some cartridge refill tools/kits and they had a long needle like that. I didn't look at the details though because I was searching for something else.
Does a cartridge have a check valve in it, like a spring-loaded ball bearing seal to keep ink from leaking out? I'm curious about this partly because it relates to using a syringe to add/remove ink from a cartridge, but also because I wonder if purging air from the ink supply tubes at the printhead carriage is actually trying to pull suction against a closed check valve in the ink cartridge. I've notice some air pull attempts with the LPS syringe have strong resistance and then it suddenly "pops" and air/ink starts flowing into the syringe. It made me wonder if I was fighting a check valve in the ink cartridge, and creating a lot of suction inside the ink tubing. Made me worry about damaging something, or drawing in more air thru another seal somewhere in the ink tubing connections.
The operation of the ink cartridges and the role of the "bongos" is still a mystery to me. I mean it's not clear to me what actually drives the ink from the cartridges to the heads when needed, and stops it from flowing when it's not.
In the HP 70, 772, 747, cartridges and more of that model there is no check valve behind the connector seal. However part of the black balloon ink pump system is a one way small black rubber disc valve that is between the pump chamber and the ink bag, if you put a needle of a filled syringe through the connector seal and you apply pressure on the syringe no ink will flow into the ink bag but pressure builds up in the pump chamber itself as the small black valve just blocks the ink flow. EDit: The cartridge slots have plungers that push in the black balloons/bongos and the small valves block the ink flow to the ink bags so the ink will go into the printer's ink tubes/lines, when the bongos inflate again they open the small valves again so ink flows from the ink bags into the pump houses. There is no need to have an extra valve near the pump to block the ink flow back from the ink line, the line is thin so some capillary force exists there and I think the heads have also a kind of one way valve system together with an adaptation to the environment's air pressure. At the upper part of the ink tube in the printer there is a check valve with a spring and a 3mm steel ball behind the connector seal where the head needle is pushed in. It will close the line when the head is removed. BTW, you can buy that part at Aliexpress, they know that the seal wears out over time. Quite messy to replace them at 12 spots I think.
Behind the bottom chip cap there is another inlet with a small rubber ball in it You can fill the cartridge there.
Taking ink out from the HP70 etc cartridges at the connector seal is no problem and the same applies to pulling air/ink out at the head side of the ink tubes (check valve though so special needle needed) when all the cartridges are in the printer. Without cartridges you might pull in air though, there is a kind of valve system at the cartridge slot end of the tube that closes the needle when no cartridge is sitting over the needle there but whether it is completely air tight I doubt.
The larger HP cartridges like the HP775 do not have an ink pump but have a rigid airtight hull around the ink bag and air pressure is applied within that hull to pressurize the ink bag. Behind the connector seal of that type is a check valve with a spring and ball. All for faster machines with bigger heads. For the cartridges it is easier to use a needle with a hole at the side but it has to be near the tip of the needle. A normal syringe needle will bend along the ball and give issues.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
-
Ah! Thanks Ernst, this is great detail! I had a good understanding of the printhead end of the system, but not the cartridge end.
Ok I couldn't find the cartridge I originally opened a few years ago so I just opened another one. And it's gloss enhancer so I can actually see inside that "pump" area more easily. I think I understand it now. Ink from the bag goes into that pump chamber (thru the rubber flap check valve that you mentioned), and then the pressure on the bongo from the printer pushes the ink into the cartridge "nozzle".
For funsies I actually tried working it by hand but of course nothing came out because there is no needle in the nozzle to let it out thru the seal.
I also see air in there and wonder whether this is normal or if this is why this cartridge was rejected by the printer (I have several cartidges like that, some are almost full). The air goes to the top so it might tolerate some amount of air but maybe after a certain amount it's too much, or air gets into the printer tubes.
I might try using a syringe in the nozzle section to remove some air and cause ink to move from the bag to the pump/nozzle area to prime it. It would be great if this is all it takes to make a cartridge work again!
I also see the "refill" hole you mention too, and how it appears to enter the plastic pump/nozzle housing just above the black flapper value.
It looks like neither hole (nozzle or filler) actually go directly up into the bag. It looks like both turn 90-degree corners inside the pump/nozzle plastic housing. So I don't need to worry about a syringe going into the bag and poking it. Also makes me confused why those refill kits have those really long needles..., maybe it's for a different type of cartridge for another printer? 🤷♂️
I might take one of the really dry cartridges and remove the bag so I can more clearly see the pump unit.
-
Too many slightly different kits out there, but I am happy I got this one from LPS:
https://www.lpscomputer.com/products/updated-printhead-recovery-kit-for-hp-70-72-73-91-744-746-771-printheads?_pos=1&_sid=9ced0a00f&_ss=r
It has the dual funnel and two syringes - one for the ink lines and one for the printheads. The ink line syringe has the hole on the side and a depth limiter.
The printhead nozzle cap is designed to do just one color at a time, and then flip it for the other color.
I got all my low-weight printheads in my Z3100 44" up to 60 grams.
It is not as easy as the demo video on the above LPS page makes it look. A lot of small air bubbles coming up from the printheads and the ink lines at the carriage; it takes a lot of force and concentration to get all the air out.
I accidentally doubled up on the tiny silicone seals for the printheads on my first try, and then the printhead was sitting too high.
But I got that sorted, plus LPS even sent me some silicone seals free of charge when I probably misplaced one in the process.
Sam
-
Too many slightly different kits out there, but I am happy I got this one from LPS:
https://www.lpscomputer.com/products/updated-printhead-recovery-kit-for-hp-70-72-73-91-744-746-771-printheads?_pos=1&_sid=9ced0a00f&_ss=r
It has the dual funnel and two syringes - one for the ink lines and one for the printheads. The ink line syringe has the hole on the side and a depth limiter.
The printhead nozzle cap is designed to do just one color at a time, and then flip it for the other color.
I got all my low-weight printheads in my Z3100 44" up to 60 grams.
It is not as easy as the demo video on the above LPS page makes it look. A lot of small air bubbles coming up from the printheads and the ink lines at the carriage; it takes a lot of force and concentration to get all the air out.
Hi Sam, many thanks for the details on this kit! The printhead nozzle cap doing one colour at a time is a key thing not mentioned in their description, and explains how they do one side only in their video without getting air into the opposite side. I need to get my hands on one of these one-sided caps somewhere, since I already have all the other parts. Would love to see a photo of the seal in that cap if you can post one.
Did you actually use the fluid in the kit? That part is a head-scratcher for me. I would expect it to require so much ink to go thru the head before all that fluid is gone and I'm getting consistent ink for print quality and colour accuracy again. I suspect it's intended for cases with really clogged nozzles, maybe as a last-ditch effort, and I feel in most cases it would be unnecessary. But I'm curious to hear from others who have tried it.
Yes it definitely takes some effort, especially purging the heads. The "stuff" going into the pump syringe when purging a head looks like a milkshake foam sometimes. Those nozzles are nearly microscopic so it's a lot of pressure and takes a while for it to flow thru them. We need like a ratcheting syringe so we can just inch it up a notch at a time without needing to hold it :D
-
Hi Kyle,
Yeah I followed the instructions and used the supplied cleaning fluid. I ended up using a bit more than the recommended 5mm - more like 7mm.
Also used closer to 10mm of ink to refill after the cleaning fluid.
I haven't printed anything critical yet - just Mark's printhead exercise image and then a diagnostic printout - both looked pretty good. But we'll see when I print some more important images next week.
Also found it pretty easy to get close to sucking air back in with that dual funnel. For me it was best to let up when the fluid is just at the bottom of the funnel section. If you pull beyond that it gets down to air pretty quick on the thin "pipe" section connected to the printhead inlets.
The staff at LPS have been pretty helpful; maybe they would send you a nozzle cap?
[email protected]
A couple pics of the nozzle cap here.
Sam
-
Thanks Sam! I think I saw another pic of that nozzle cap just recently, may have been a different supplier but same design, with a divider down the middle to separate the 2 sides, and a half-hole on one side only. (Mine is just one open area with a single hole, no divider.)
Yes the ink level in the funnel tube can drop fast once it's below the bottom of the cone, and it takes a while for the suction to equalize so it stops! I had a mini-panic from a couple that got very low like that too! It's even worse with my "dual-sided" nozzle cap, because one side may be nearly empty before the other side has moved much, so it needs to be topped up again to avoid sucking air. So the single-sided nozzle cap you have definitely helps save ink.
I think I was pulling 7-10 mL too for each colour, and sometimes more if I had to top one up a second time to deal with the above. My printheads weighed 45-50 g or so, so roughly speaking were missing 10-15 mL of ink total. So up to about 8 mL or so for a single colour if it's empty, but then need extra in the funnel to prevent sucking air, plus of course some ink is lost while drawing the air from the head. So sometimes 10 mL (or more).
The single-side nozzle cap wins here too because you can do a little at a time with a single colour without needing to clean the ink syringe. With my dual-sided setup and only 1 syringe, I had to keep cleaning the syringe between colours, so it was easier to just pull 8 mL or so and accept that I might be wasting some ink. I've since bought a second syringe to make it easier to do both colours at once, so now I can do a full head before needing to clean the syringes.
Yes I might try LPS for the single-sided cap. Their pricing tho sometimes make it better value to just buy their kit anyway, and the shipping to Canada is pricey. I try to wait until I need a few things at once (or I look for similar elsewhere). (I don't have a business so these are real costs to me haha.)
I think the cleaning solution is still the most curious part for me. In my case I think I would choose to skip it unless I had a really clogged head. It just seems like I'd burn so much ink to flush out the fluid before getting consistent colour and print quality. But I guess it depends on how effectively the purge/prime removes it... If the fluid is mainly replacing the air in the head, and then the fluid is removed while pulling in ink and they don't mix much, then maybe it actually results in *less* ink wasted, because it's mainly fluid not ink being removed when purging the air? 🤔 Which would actually be pretty smart if it works that way. Could you actually see a colour change that showed that the last of the cleaning fluid was coming out of the nozzles and good ink was appearing?