Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on January 13, 2022, 04:57:13 am
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Seems that US politics and automotive news do not mix well, so I thought that a good car discussion deserves its own thread.
Munro Live just released a very interesting discussion between Sandy Munro and Al Wagner. Loaded with historical facts, their personal experiences and speculations about the near and slightly distant future, this is a video which will appeal to engineers, historians and even back seat passengers. True history of the American cars in this under one hour long video. Many comments posted by viewers are also enlightening.
Some of the facts I never knew, were the $256 price for Ford Model T when it was first produced, Dodge Brothers dying of the Spanish Flu in 1920, and five hundred EV manufacturers in USA hundred years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fjeK2FKBjQ
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If you really love old cars, look up the work of Michael Furman. He is a Philly based photographer who specializes in photographing cars. Much of his work is with cars from the 1920s through 1950s where only a hand full of each model where made.
He has photographed cars that alone are worth more then an entire dealership.
He also is pretty well versed in form and design, and gives a great talk when showing is work.
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If you really love old cars, look up the work of Michael Furman. He is a Philly based photographer who specializes in photographing cars. Much of his work is with cars from the 1920s through 1950s where only a hand full of each model where made.
He has photographed cars that alone are worth more then an entire dealership.
He also is pretty well versed in form and design, and gives a great talk when showing is work.
That video mentions old cars, but more as a parallel between early 1900's and 2020's. The current transition from ICE cars to EVs may be quicker than the 1900-1913 time frame changing from horse carriages to gasoline, steam and battery powered cars. Beside the historical facts they cover also latest trends in US and Chinese car manufacturing, autonomous driving, even chuckling at Biden's remarks about GM leading the electric revolution and also the future of the car dealerships.
By the way, GM led also EV production in the recent 3 months with 26 EVs. Not 260K, 26K, or 260 but full 26 cars. 25 Bolts and one Hummer.
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That video mentions old cars, but more as a parallel between early 1900's and 2020's. The current transition from ICE cars to EVs may be quicker than the 1900-1913 time frame changing from horse carriages to gasoline, steam and battery powered cars. Beside the historical facts they cover also latest trends in US and Chinese car manufacturing, autonomous driving, even chuckling at Biden's remarks about GM leading the electric revolution and also the future of the car dealerships.
By the way, GM led also EV production in the recent 3 months with 26 EVs. Not 260K, 26K, or 260 but full 26 cars. 25 Bolts and one Hummer.
I dont know about that.
I was talking with my mechanic yesterday about ICE vs EV cars, and, although we both feel they drive nice, nether of us see them taking off due to the length it takes to charge the battery. His opinion was until you can get full charging down to sub-20 minutes, it is going to be a hard sell to the average person.
The other question I have that no one seems to provide any answers on is how much does your electric bill go up after getting an EV?
We all know electric heat is incredibly inefficient and costly when compared to any other fuel type. So, are you truly saving money by replacing gasoline with electricity as your transportation fuel? Sure, gas may go up, but that is a reflection of energy going up overall, meaning electricity prices will rise in tandem.
My wife and I are looking at buying a house with a barn (for a home studio) most of which are is areas without natural gas lines. Lots of electric heat and stoves/ovens, which we hate, and all my research is showing that after just a few years, the cost of converting all my appliances to propane, along with buying the tank, would be covered by the decrease is fuel cost vs paying for electric. Is it really the case that cars are the one exception where electricity is more efficient?
Additionally, a property with a barn typically comes with a decent amount of acres and the need for a tractor. I have been researching those as well, especially thin profile versions designed for vineyards. Along with with needing the right amount of horse-power and hydraulics for any attachments, one of the biggest issues with tractors, it turns out, is the large rear wheels make them prone to rolling over backwards, which could kill the driver. So, it is best to put a couple 1000 pounds of ballast on the bumpers to stabilize it, especially thinner profile versions. A heavy duty batter would be a great solution to this problem; I have yet to see any electric tractors in my research.
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Germany's Transport Minister Wissing warns against buying cars with combustion engines. Interestingly, in contrast to US government, Wissing is not averse talking about Tesla, moreover he recommends to Germans to buy Teslas instead of the ICE cars.
Surprisingly, Volker Wissing of the FDP party is now fully committed to battery-electric cars and rejects e-fuels.
»We have to use the various energy sources where they are most efficient. In the car, that's the electric drive," Wissing told the information service "Tagesspiegel Background".
By 2030, 15 million fully electric cars should be on Germany's roads. However, a few things still have to change for this to happen.
Wissing also sees it as a task for the German automotive industry to convince people. »Tesla has succeeded in winning over many buyers with its models, and I would like the same for German car manufacturers.«
https://www.spiegel.de/auto/volker-wissing-verkehrsminister-warnt-vor-kauf-von-autos-mit-verbrennungsmotor-a-2eda9591-7832-44be-8609-375fb89b3c5c
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The other question I have that no one seems to provide any answers on is how much does your electric bill go up after getting an EV?
The cost of electricity for an EV depends on the state where you live and also where you charge it. If you charge it at home, it would cost you around $50-$100 a month. If you charge at highway supercharger, it would cost more, but still less than filling the car with gasoline. If you have solar panels on your roof, you could save even more.
Here is a handy Canadian Fuel Saving Calculator (https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com/learn/fuel-savings-calculator)
Using the Tesla Model 3 SR car for 20,000km per year I calculated savings of $2,523Cdn The savings in US would be slightly lower, since the gas is cheaper there and also the US $ is worth more.
Suppose you put 1,000 miles on your vehicle each month, for example, and pay 10 cents in your area for each kilowatt-hour of electricity. In that case, this pegs your at-home EV recharging bill at $25 to $33 per month (based on the calculation of 3 to 4 driving miles equaling one kilowatt-hour). Even if you double your electric rate to 20 cents per/kWh, your EV recharging cost will be $50 to $66.
According to AAA, the average price of gas hovers at $3.18 per gallon as of this writing. So, filling up a 12-gallon gas tank currently costs about $38.16. Things get a little tricky at this point because, as we all know, cars and trucks use vastly different amounts of fuel.
Let’s say you’re driving an economy car that brings a combined average of 30 miles per gallon during a mix of city and highway driving. Using that same 12-gallon tank as a reference point, you’ll have 360 miles of driving range for each fill-up. If you’re driving the same 1,000 miles per month, you’ll need to refuel at least three times each month and spend about $114.48 ($38.16 x 3).
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/
As to electric tractors, one company making them is California-based Solectrac. As you say, the weight of the battery can put to good use if mounted in the front.
“The biggest problem with electric cars is the weight of the batteries,” says Heckeroth, who has a background in solar power and electric vehicles. “I realized very quickly that weight on a tractor is actually an asset that improves traction.”
“In addition to being cleaner and quieter, an electric tractor is much more efficient, since all the energy goes into work; whereas, in a diesel tractor, much of it is wasted as heat,” he explains. “In addition, maximum torque is available immediately rather than at rated engine speed. Finally, since the power source has just one moving part, they require very little maintenance. Even the batteries are projected to last 10 years, pending operating cycles and depth of discharge.”
Solectrac currently offers a 30-hp. compact and a 40-hp. utility model. The company just introduced a 70-hp. vineyard and orchard tractor, which addresses the specific needs of that specialty market with its narrow width and greater horsepower.
The other option would be a battery powered pickup truck like Rivian or Ford F150 Lighting.
https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/tractors/an-electric-tractor-may-be-in-your-future
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Seems that US politics and automotive news do not mix well, so I thought that a good car discussion deserves its own thread.
Munro Live just released a very interesting discussion between Sandy Munro and Al Wagner. Loaded with historical facts, their personal experiences and speculations about the near and slightly distant future, this is a video which will appeal to engineers, historians and even back seat passengers. True history of the American cars in this under one hour long video. Many comments posted by viewers are also enlightening.
Some of the facts I never knew, were the $256 price for Ford Model T when it was first produced, Dodge Brothers dying of the Spanish Flu in 1920, and five hundred EV manufacturers in USA hundred years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fjeK2FKBjQ
Interesting fact about EV's around the turn of the last century. (Don't know if it's in your video. I haven't watched it.) When Ford came out with his gasoline-fired Model T, his wife refused to drive it. At the time, they hadn't invented the electric starter. So you had to get in front of the car and crank the engine. She wasn't about to do that. So she drove Ford's competitor's electric vehicle until the battery/starter was invented and put in Ford cars.
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Interesting fact about EV's around the turn of the last century. (Don't know if it's in your video. I haven't watched it.) When Ford came out with his gasoline-fired Model T, his wife refused to drive it. At the time, they hadn't invented the electric starter. So you had to get in front of the car and crank the engine. She wasn't about to do that. So she drove Ford's competitor's electric vehicle until the battery/starter was invented and put in Ford cars.
Yes, that video mentioned the electric cars were preferred by ladies. Apparently, at that time there were several hundred EV manufacturers. However, the batteries were heavy and with a low driving range. So when Charles Kettering invented electric starter, that killed all EVs of that time.
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I dont know about that.
I was talking with my mechanic yesterday about ICE vs EV cars, and, although we both feel they drive nice, nether of us see them taking off due to the length it takes to charge the battery. His opinion was until you can get full charging down to sub-20 minutes, it is going to be a hard sell to the average person.
The other question I have that no one seems to provide any answers on is how much does your electric bill go up after getting an EV?
We all know electric heat is incredibly inefficient and costly when compared to any other fuel type. So, are you truly saving money by replacing gasoline with electricity as your transportation fuel? Sure, gas may go up, but that is a reflection of energy going up overall, meaning electricity prices will rise in tandem.
My wife and I are looking at buying a house with a barn (for a home studio) most of which are is areas without natural gas lines. Lots of electric heat and stoves/ovens, which we hate, and all my research is showing that after just a few years, the cost of converting all my appliances to propane, along with buying the tank, would be covered by the decrease is fuel cost vs paying for electric. Is it really the case that cars are the one exception where electricity is more efficient?
Additionally, a property with a barn typically comes with a decent amount of acres and the need for a tractor. I have been researching those as well, especially thin profile versions designed for vineyards. Along with with needing the right amount of horse-power and hydraulics for any attachments, one of the biggest issues with tractors, it turns out, is the large rear wheels make them prone to rolling over backwards, which could kill the driver. So, it is best to put a couple 1000 pounds of ballast on the bumpers to stabilize it, especially thinner profile versions. A heavy duty batter would be a great solution to this problem; I have yet to see any electric tractors in my research.
As more an more electric vehicles go on the road, central power production for electricity will have to be increased. Electric costs will go up also as demand increases.
MY cousin who lives in Westchester County New York for 35 years built her house all-electric. Con Ed the NY utility was offering big discounts at the time and rebates if you did so. Now she's paying 2x-3x times to heat her house and run it as other similar-sized homes running on oil or natural gas. She's so sorry she ever did it. She can't replace it with natural gas because there are no gas lines in her neighborhood.
Just coincidentally, the NYS just passed a law that requires electric heating, hot water, and cooking equipment in all new homes. Sound's like my cousin all over again. Worse still, is you have no choice. What do you think is going to happen to electric rates when that demand is added? It will kill new construction and major renovations to existing homes. More government silliness.
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Yes, that video mentioned the electric cars were preferred by ladies. Apparently, at that time there were several hundred EV manufacturers. However, the batteries were heavy and with a low driving range. So when Charles Kettering invented electric starter, that killed all EVs of that time.
Why did it kill EV's? Could it be that it took too long to charge an EV and that the range was too short? ;)
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Why did it kill EV's? Could it be that it took too long to charge an EV and that the range was too short? ;)
The batteries at that time had low capacity, were heavy and expensive. The gas engines were relatively light and the electric starter made it more convenient to start them, so the buyers stopped buying the electric cars.
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The batteries at that time had low capacity, were heavy and expensive. The gas engines were relatively light and the electric starter made it more convenient to start them, so the buyers stopped buying the electric cars.
What's changed?
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Slightly off-topic but I just came across this Volvo ad on Vimeo, https://vimeo.com/664938337 (https://vimeo.com/664938337). It's about 2 min long.
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Slightly off-topic but I just came across this Volvo ad on Vimeo, https://vimeo.com/664938337 (https://vimeo.com/664938337). It's about 2 min long.
I was waiting for something funny and was disappointed.
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I was waiting for something funny and was disappointed.
Sorry, you'll have to take that up with Volvo. :)
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Sorry, you'll have to take that up with Volvo. :)
Actually it's interesting that they're going all electric. What's the time frame? I think there are other manufacturers who promised the same thing. Aren't they putting their necks out, at least until battery longevity and charging stations are more common, and the price of batteries declines more?
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What's changed?
To save on weight, you could use a coiled spring or a bunch of elastics to propel the vehicle. The lithium based batteries are much lighter than the old lead acid batteries. At present, most EVs still use a conventional lead acid battery in addition to the main battery, but soon they will replace also this battery with a lighter lithium based power source.
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Actually it's interesting that they're going all electric. What's the time frame? I think there are other manufacturers who promised the same thing. Aren't they putting their necks out, at least until battery longevity and charging stations are more common, and the price of batteries declines more?
You say that as if EVs are still a long way off. While you weren't paying attention, they became mainstream. I read somewhere that something like 30% of all cars in Norway are EVs, and ICE will be banned soon. I believe that's true of other countries. We're not at the proto-type test phase anymore.
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Slightly off-topic but I just came across this Volvo ad on Vimeo]. It's about 2 min long.
Volvo is not the safest car any longer.
The model S is "faster than any Porsche, safer than any Volvo," said Musk, wearing a black leather jacket, after he drove the Model S Plaid down a test track onto the stage.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/this-car-crushes-elon-musk-says-tesla-model-s-plaid-is-faster-than-porsche-safer-than-volvo/articleshow/83425983.cms?
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You say that as if EVs are still a long way off. While you weren't paying attention, they became mainstream. I read somewhere that something like 30% of all cars in Norway are EVs, and ICE will be banned soon. I believe that's true of other countries. We're not at the proto-type test phase anymore.
But Norway is a little country with a population of 5 million about equal to Brooklyn and Queens. How far do they drive? So what might be good for Volvo, might not be good for GM or Ford who supplies cars in America with 330 million people and millions of square miles in its territory. Maybe Volvo will survive on all-electric or they might have to backtrack a little until humanity catches up.
What we need is a design that uses sea water.
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Volvo is not the safest car any longer.
Right. A Tesla was sent into space. Who else has done that?
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But Norway is a little country with a population of 5 million about equal to Brooklyn and Queens. How far do they drive? So what might be good for Volvo, might not be good for GM or Ford who supplies cars in America with 330 million people and millions of square miles in its territory. Maybe Volvo will survive on all-electric or they might have to backtrack a little until humanity catches up.
What we need is a design that uses sea water.
Does everything need to be black and white all the time? Yes, it's true that many people drive long distances, but it's also true that many people don't. It's a big world out there, there is room for many different methods of transportation.
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Does everything need to be black and white all the time? Yes, it's true that many people drive long distances, but it's also true that many people don't. It's a big world out there, there is room for many different methods of transportation.
I'm just pointing out why it might be easier for Volvo to go all-electric in their small home country. It wouldn't work for a GM or Ford to give up their traditional gasoline auto designs and switch over to all electric. At least not yet. By the way, what is Volvo doing with their truck lines?
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I'm just pointing out why it might be easier for Volvo to go all-electric in their small home country. It wouldn't work for a GM or Ford to give up their traditional gasoline auto designs and switch over to all electric. At least not yet. By the way, what is Volvo doing with their truck lines?
Nowadays it's easy to drive all-electric also in a big country. The supercharger stations are now available in all 50 states.
Piloted by Ryan Levenson and Josh Allan, the Model S crossed the country in 42 hours and 17 minutes. That's two hours faster than the previous record, set in a Porsche Taycan.
the team managed to reach 155 mph in the standard Model S. But the sustained speeds weren't quite as high, as there's still a benefit to driving slightly more efficiency. As EV endurance and charging speeds improve, though, expect the electric-car record to inch closer to the overall record of 25 hours and 39 minutes. Given how quickly the EV record has fallen since 2017, it might not be as far away as you think.
https://youtu.be/Q1X2fEjFQxQ
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/#:~:text=A%20Rented%20Tesla%20Model%20S,set%20in%20a%20Porsche%20Taycan.&text=The%20timetables%20dictated%20that%20he,the%20middle%20of%20the%20afternoon.
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Nowadays it's easy to drive all-electric also in a big country. The supercharger stations are now available in all 50 states.
https://youtu.be/Q1X2fEjFQxQ
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/#:~:text=A%20Rented%20Tesla%20Model%20S,set%20in%20a%20Porsche%20Taycan.&text=The%20timetables%20dictated%20that%20he,the%20middle%20of%20the%20afternoon.
There aren;t enough of them yet. YOu could drive miles and miles out of the way to get to one. Here's a map of central new Jersey west of NYC. I place a measuring line on it that shows 47 miles from the city for reference. I would have to drive 9 miles to get to the nearest one where I live. When you're traveling, you could be twenty miles off your route when driving through. Then you might have to wait if it's busy. Plus it takes a lot of time even then. Gas stations are all over and take 5 minutes to gas up.
Electric is good for two car families with private homes where you can charge up one overnight and use the car locally. But you need the second car with gas for the rest of the time.
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The cost of electricity for an EV depends on the state where you live and also where you charge it. If you charge it at home, it would cost you around $50-$100 a month. If you charge at highway supercharger, it would cost more, but still less than filling the car with gasoline.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/
As to electric tractors, one company making them is California-based Solectrac. As you say, the weight of the battery can put to good use if mounted in the front.
The other option would be a battery powered pickup truck like Rivian or Ford F150 Lighting.
https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/tractors/an-electric-tractor-may-be-in-your-future
Very interesting. How good are battery operated hydraulics. I am assuming they would be good enough to run sprayers and such.
Although it is more of a once every couple of decades thing to do, and may just be better to sub out when needed, I wonder how well these tractors are with deep ripping of hardpan? I realize, just like anything other standard tractor, they would never be able to go down 4 or 5 feet in solid Cali hardpan, but 2.5 feet on loam would be nice.
PS
I did look up the Solectrac thin profile tractor and the major issue I see is no mention of an hydraulic system. Perhaps on future models? but a deal breaker for any operations that need a sprayer. Also, it is ugly!
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You say that as if EVs are still a long way off. While you weren't paying attention, they became mainstream. I read somewhere that something like 30% of all cars in Norway are EVs, and ICE will be banned soon. I believe that's true of other countries. We're not at the proto-type test phase anymore.
What are the subsidies? What would it be if all subsidies were taken away?
To go mainstream you will either need to get rid of most subsidies or drastically raise taxes. If they become much cheaper to produce, the former would be doable. If not, people will only put up with the new taxes so long.
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There aren;t enough of them yet. YOu could drive miles and miles out of the way to get to one. Here's a map of central new Jersey west of NYC. I place a measuring line on it that shows 47 miles from the city for reference. I would have to drive 9 miles to get to the nearest one where I live. When you're traveling, you could be twenty miles off your route when driving through. Then you might have to wait if it's busy. Plus it takes a lot of time even then. Gas stations are all over and take 5 minutes to gas up.
Electric is good for two car families with private homes where you can charge up one overnight and use the car locally. But you need the second car with gas for the rest of the time.
We tend to think about things from our own perspectives. EVs could never work for me. I have a rather odd unpredictable work life where how far I need to travel on a given day could be 2 miles or 200 miles.
I think though for city dwellers who have predictable and consistent live styles, EVs would be fine. Most of NYC gets by without owning a car.
The only hesitancy I could foresee, and not that I would have done this as a kid ;) ;), would be parallel parked EVs being unplugged at night by neighborhood jokesters.
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The cost of electricity for an EV depends on the state where you live and also where you charge it. If you charge it at home, it would cost you around $50-$100 a month. If you charge at highway supercharger, it would cost more, but still less than filling the car with gasoline. If you have solar panels on your roof, you could save even more.
Here is a handy Canadian Fuel Saving Calculator (https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com/learn/fuel-savings-calculator)
Using the Tesla Model 3 SR car for 20,000km per year I calculated savings of $2,523Cdn The savings in US would be slightly lower, since the gas is cheaper there and also the US $ is worth more.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/
As to electric tractors, one company making them is California-based Solectrac. As you say, the weight of the battery can put to good use if mounted in the front.
The other option would be a battery powered pickup truck like Rivian or Ford F150 Lighting.
https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/tractors/an-electric-tractor-may-be-in-your-future
In addition to the $50-100 per month cost for electricity to recharge, you have to also include the amortized value of the cost of the battery against a gasoline power-train when you purchase the car. Right now they're more costly than gas. They are suppose to become cheaper by 2027.
Electric cars ‘will be cheaper to produce than fossil fuel vehicles by 2027’
By 2026, larger vehicles such as electric sedans and SUVs will be as cheap to produce as petrol and diesel models, according to forecasts from BloombergNEF, with small cars reaching the threshold the following year.
Electric vehicles reaching price parity with the internal combustion engine is seen as a key milestone in the world’s transition from burning fossil fuels.
A charging cable is pictured plugged into an electric vehicle parked in a bay reserved for electric vehicles
Electric car insurance in UK ‘is £45 less than for petrol or diesel vehicle’
Read more
The falling cost of producing batteries for electric vehicles, combined with dedicated production lines in carmarkers’ plants, will make them cheaper to buy, on average, within the next six years than conventional cars, even before any government subsidies, BloombergNEF found.
The current average pre-tax retail price of a medium-sized electric car is €33,300 (£28,914), compared with €18,600 for a petrol car, according to the research. In 2026, both are forecast to cost about €19,000.
By 2030, the same electric car is forecast to cost €16,300 before tax, while the petrol car would cost €19,900.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027
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What are the subsidies? What would it be if all subsidies were taken away?
To go mainstream you will either need to get rid of most subsidies or drastically raise taxes. If they become much cheaper to produce, the former would be doable. If not, people will only put up with the new taxes so long.
Government intervention in the free market with rebates causes misallocation of resources and malinvestments. For example, manufacturers think that everyone seems to be moving toward EV's because of rebates. So factories are built and Volvo goes all electric. Then the rebates stop. Companies go bankrupt because there is less demand for the product. It also causes distortions in other markets.
This is like what happened when the government mandated methanol into gasoline so there would be 10% of it. Methanol comes from corn. So farmers started to plant more corn limiting the production of other vegetables raising their prices. Because so much corn was going for gasoline, the price of meat went up as corn is used as feed for cattle and there was less of it. Unintended consequences
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We tend to think about things from our own perspectives. EVs could never work for me. I have a rather odd unpredictable work life where how far I need to travel on a given day could be 2 miles or 200 miles.
I think though for city dwellers who have predictable and consistent live styles, EVs would be fine. Most of NYC gets by without owning a car.
The only hesitancy I could foresee, and not that I would have done this as a kid ;) ;), would be parallel parked EVs being unplugged at night by neighborhood jokesters.
I lived in Queens NYC for many years. NYC has a lot of cars considering. We lived in an apartment. We had one car, my wife's of course, that was valet parked in the building's heated garage. But there was no practical way I could see for them to install charges for so many cars at night. The other car, the one I drove :) I had to park in the bitter cold and snowy street by a curb somewhere where I could get snowed in. ;) There's no practical way to build chargers by curbs.
According to recent census estimates, almost 1.4 million households in New York City own a car compared to 3.1 million total households.
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I'm driving an older Camry and don't drive much these days, especially in the last 2 years, so my car operational costs are very reasonable. Buying a new EV and paying higher insurance rate would be much more expensive, but if you drive a lot, the fuel and maintenance savings would quickly add up and the overall EV costs over 5 years would be lower.
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The current average pre-tax retail price of a medium-sized electric car is €33,300 (£28,914), compared with €18,600 for a petrol car, according to the research. In 2026, both are forecast to cost about €19,000.
By 2030, the same electric car is forecast to cost €16,300 before tax, while the petrol car would cost €19,900.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027
The latest EV prices are much higher than the ones shown in the Guardian article. The prices for new and used EV's are obscene. On Autotrader.ca there are several 2021 and 2022 Tesla Model Y cars listed for $95- $100K Cdn. Cdn list price for the basic Model Y is $77K and waiting time is over 6 months. Ford 150 Lightning platinum version and top of the line Rivian pickup trucks are around $100K US.
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I'm driving an older Camry and don't drive much these days, especially in the last 2 years, so my car operational costs are very reasonable. Buying a new EV and paying higher insurance rate would be much more expensive, but if you drive a lot, the fuel and maintenance savings would quickly add up and the overall EV costs over 5 years would be lower.
Why is insurance higher with Ev's?
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The latest EV prices are much higher than the ones shown in the Guardian article. The prices for new and used EV's are obscene. On Autotrader.ca there are several 2021 and 2022 Tesla Model Y cars listed for $95- $100K Cdn. Cdn list price for the basic Model Y is $77K and waiting time is over 6 months. Ford 150 Lightning platinum version and top of the line Rivian pickup trucks are around $100K US.
So what good is saving let's say $1000 a year on gas if you're paying let's say $10,000 more for an Ev over a gasoline car. Where's the savings with electricity?
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. "Whatever you do, don't drive one."
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Why is insurance higher with Ev's?
Because the insurance companies can get away with it.
The good news is that Tesla insurance should be cheaper for most drivers. It is now available just in a handful of states, but it will be gradually rolled out to all states in US and hopefully also to Canada.
As to your other question about the actual operational cost savings, use the supplied calculator. The more miles you drive, the quicker the ROI. In addition, you'll be saving on the maintenance. No oil and filter changes, less frequent brakes jobs, no belt re-tensioning, no spark plug changes, no radiator fluids and flushes, and more. Thousands of dollars saved over the life of the vehicle.
The autonomous driving option (various versions and capabilities by different brands) can make the travelling less tiring and save even your life.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. "Whatever you do, don't drive one."
Given the numbers that James provide and for travel vehicles, I, now, certainly will drive one. It may change my mind; how negative you are! >:(
However, when it comes to utility/farm vehicles, the lack of hydraulic systems is a deal breaker. In a decade, it would be nice, for utilities, but, now, for transportation, I am becoming much more open.
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I, now, certainly will drive one. It may change my mind; how negative you are! >:(
If you read that as negative, then you missed the point entirely.
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If you read that as negative, then you missed the point entirely.
Oh, I am negative about electric cars, but now need to test one, just to see if I suddenly have divine knowledge, which, by the way, I will realize I have always have anyway. ;) ;)
No way I am letting left wing radicals come to realistic conclusions before I do. ;D ;D ;D
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EVs will take over the market quickly for reasons above and beyond the almighty dollar.
Smooth as glass, quiet as a whisper and, best of all...
FUN
.
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Because the insurance companies can get away with it.
The good news is that Tesla insurance should be cheaper for most drivers. It is now available just in a handful of states, but it will be gradually rolled out to all states in US and hopefully also to Canada.
As to your other question about the actual operational cost savings, use the supplied calculator. The more miles you drive, the quicker the ROI. In addition, you'll be saving on the maintenance. No oil and filter changes, less frequent brakes jobs, no belt re-tensioning, no spark plug changes, no radiator fluids and flushes, and more. Thousands of dollars saved over the life of the vehicle.
The autonomous driving option (various versions and capabilities by different brands) can make the travelling less tiring and save even your life.
Could the higher insurance cost be tied to the autonomous driving option? There's a lot of nervousness about safety. Didn't I hear today that the cost for that system went up a lot?
The savings you mentioned should be included. The problem is, like climate control, the proponents only talk about what it's going to cost if we do nothing but don't tell us what it's going to cost if we do? All costs and savings have to be included to ascertain the bottom line. When people only talk about the differences between the cost of a KWh vs a gallon of gas when talking about operational costs, they're not looking at the actual saving and costs for running and owning the car. They're cherry-picking and fooling themselves and others.
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... They're cherry-picking and fooling themselves and others.
You seem to be hell-bent on proving to everyone how EV use cannot possibly catch on while they're selling like hot cakes. Can you explain that? Do you think all those people are not able figure things out for themselves?
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EVs will take over the market quickly for reasons above and beyond the almighty dollar.
Smooth as glass, quiet as a whisper and, best of all...
FUN
.
Fun sounds like a great reason. I love to drive and enjoy performance like acceleration that Tesla does. But most of the hoopla is about how much you can save on gas which might not be that much if you include depreciation and vehicle cost. Maybe they should push FUN more.
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You seem to be hell-bent on proving to everyone how EV use cannot possibly catch on while they're selling like hot cakes. Can you explain that? Do you think all those people are not able figure things out for themselves?
It's new. It's fun. It's fast. You get a $7500 tax deduction. You're different than all the other drivers on the road. So people buy it. It's like a new model Nikon for three grand. Gotta have it.
If my analysis doesn't make sense, prove me wrong. I use to do energy management design and installations. The first thing the buyers wanted to know is ROI. These business people were savvy. If I tried to BS them by not including all the costs to make the ROI look better, they'd know immediately and throw me out of their office. I know when someone is selling me a bill of goods when they only mention how much electricity they;re using as the justification for buying the car, ignoring all other variables. It's like calculating solar savings and not including the guy you have to pay to clean the panels of snow and dirt or the cost to remove and reinstall the panels when you replace the roof.
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It's new. It's fun. It's fast. You get a $7500 tax deduction. You're different than all the other drivers on the road. So people buy it. It's like a new model Nikon for three grand. Gotta have it.
If my analysis doesn't make sense, prove me wrong. I use to do energy management design and installations. The first thing the buyers wanted to know is ROI. These business people were savvy. If I tried to BS them by not including all the costs to make the ROI look better, they'd know immediately and throw me out of their office. I know when someone is selling me a bill of goods when they only mention how much electricity they;re using as the justification for buying the car, ignoring all other variables. It's like calculating solar savings and not including the guy you have to pay to clean the panels of snow and dirt or the cost to remove and reinstall the panels when you replace the roof.
I think your entire analysis of the car market is wrong. For starters, ROI isn’t the only, or even the primary thing everyone looks for in a car. For another, use cases are night and day from person to person. Electric cars aren’t always the optimal solution. But sometimes they are.
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I think your entire analysis of the car market is wrong. For starters, ROI isn’t the only, or even the primary thing everyone looks for in a car. For another, use cases are night and day from person to person. Electric cars aren’t always the optimal solution. But sometimes they are.
I never said you shouldn't get an EV. It serves many purposes, as you said. It's just that when someone claims how cheap it is to operate by only looking at the difference in operating costs between KWH and gallons, my eyes glaze over.
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I never said you shouldn't get an EV. It serves many purposes, as you said. It's just that when someone claims how cheap it is to operate by only looking at the difference in operating costs between KWH and gallons, my eyes glaze over.
Well sure. It’s true, but as you said there are many other costs to owning a car than the price of energy per mile. It’s not like the electrics are worse in all the other metrics though.
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Well sure. It’s true, but as you said there are many other costs to owning a car than the price of energy per mile. It’s not like the electrics are worse in all the other metrics though.
Actually, I think they're about to get better. As the traditional auto companies start electrifying their cars, the styling, features, and classiness, will get much better. Tesla will have to up their game. If battery costs come down, they'll become more competitive with similarly equipped gasoline cars. Then watch out. It's unfortunate that the government is giving one group of buyers tax breaks at the expense of others who might not even own a car or could afford a new one. I just think that's unfair. Maybe the government should give those who don't own a car a $7500 tax break so they can fly to Florida to go on vacation.
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Could the higher insurance cost be tied to the autonomous driving option? There's a lot of nervousness about safety. Didn't I hear today that the cost for that system went up a lot?
What system are you talking about?
On January 17, the cost of FSD (Full Self Driving) will go up from $10K to $12K and before the year end it will go higher. Is this what you mean? Or cost of the actual car?
If you mean FSD, then it is a lot, and no other company had sold and charged so much before for such a capability.
But if it saves your life by avoiding an accident, you could look at it as a bargain. Furthermore, it is a feature which you can amortize over the rather long life of the vehicle, in this case 15-20 years, so you could look at it as $50 per month. If it lowers your insurance premium by $50, then it's essentially free.
I read or heard several reports in which the Tesla driver described how FSD avoided possibly life-threatening situation. Last year, one of my friends driving an older BMW in the Toronto suburb fell asleep behind the wheel, the car jumped the curb on the median island and hit two metal traffic sign poles before he woke up. The car was pretty much a write off, but fortunately hitting the sign poles prevented the car from crossing into the opposing lane and hitting another car or pedestrians on the sidewalk. If he had a FSD or even Autopilot or even a less capable Lane Keeping option, the car would have alerted him and stayed in that lane. How much would you pay for a safety feature that eliminates such mishaps?
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On January 26, Elon Musk will make several announcements, among them updated specs for Cybertruck and Model Y, which will be made in the new Austin plant. According to latest rumours, he may announce two distinct Cybertruck models and a much improved Model Y MK2. Should be an exciting day.
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What system are you talking about?
On January 17, the cost of FSD (Full Self Driving) will go up from $10K to $12K and before the year end it will go higher. Is this what you mean? Or cost of the actual car?
If you mean FSD, then it is a lot, and no other company had sold and charged so much before for such a capability.
But if it saves your life by avoiding an accident, you could look at it as a bargain. Furthermore, it is a feature which you can amortize over the rather long life of the vehicle, in this case 15-20 years, so you could look at it as $50 per month. If it lowers your insurance premium by $50, then it's essentially free.
I read or heard several reports in which the Tesla driver described how FSD avoided possibly life-threatening situation. Last year, one of my friends driving an older BMW in the Toronto suburb fell asleep behind the wheel, the car jumped the curb on the median island and hit two metal traffic sign poles before he woke up. The car was pretty much a write off, but fortunately hitting the sign poles prevented the car from crossing into the opposing lane and hitting another car or pedestrians on the sidewalk. If he had a FSD or even Autopilot or even a less capable Lane Keeping option, the car would have alerted him and stayed in that lane. How much would you pay for a safety feature that eliminates such mishaps?
What I heard going up was FSD. I thought using FSD would raise your insurance premiums. Doesn't it take over control of your car and all the bugs aren't out of it?
I'm too preconditioned for that. I get nervous when others are driving and I'm not in control of the car. I couldn't relax in a car that's driving itself. Plus I enjoy driving. Have you ever tried it? If so what were your experiences?
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What I heard going up was FSD. I thought using FSD would raise your insurance premiums. Doesn't it take over control of your car and all the bugs aren't out of it?
I'm too preconditioned for that. I get nervous when others are driving and I'm not in control of the car. I couldn't relax in a car that's driving itself. Plus I enjoy driving. Have you ever tried it? If so what were your experiences?
Actually, with Tesla insurance the insurance premiums would be lower than without FSD.
I haven't tried FSD (right now it's only FSD Beta), but watched many videos showing the driving experiences - in all kinds of conditions, day, night, snow and rain. The display screen is split into two parts - left part shows the birds eye view (Surround Video) of your car and the surrounds, showing other cars, pedestrians, road obstructions, and the right half of the screen shows the navigation. There are hundreds of FSD videos on youtube, have a look at them, select some of the recent ones with FSD 10.8.1 Beta or newer, you'll be amazed. Some videos show long distance trips from SF to LA, some highway driving, rural roads or city driving.
You have to see the screen in Surround video to understand how complex it is to perform the road evaluation and driving, and how advanced FSD is. Yet, it is still not perfect, but it is improving with each subsequent version.
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Actually, with Tesla insurance the insurance premiums would be lower than without FSD.
I haven't tried FSD (right now it's only FSD Beta), but watched many videos showing the driving experiences - in all kinds of conditions, day, night, snow and rain. The display screen is split into two parts - left part shows the birds eye view (Surround Video) of your car and the surrounds, showing other cars, pedestrians, road obstructions, and the right half of the screen shows the navigation. There are hundreds of FSD videos on youtube, have a look at them, select some of the recent ones with FSD 10.8.1 Beta or newer, you'll be amazed. Some videos show long distance trips from SF to LA, some highway driving, rural roads or city driving.
You have to see the screen in Surround video to understand how complex it is to perform the road evaluation and driving, and how advanced FSD is. Yet, it is still not perfect, but it is improving with each subsequent version.
I watched a video a few months ago when someone suggested it here. The car drove through a pedestrian crosswalk while two people were waiting to cross. By the way, if a cop stops you for a violation, who pays the fine? The car's owner or Elon Musk?
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I'm surprised, because what I've seen was a very effective detection of pedestrians. Was it an early FSD version or a recent one?
FSD Beta is by definition NOT a fully working version, so there will be still many glitches.
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I'm surprised, because what I've seen was a very effective detection of pedestrians. Was it an early FSD version or a recent one?
FSD Beta is by definition NOT a fully working version, so there will be still many glitches.
I don't recall. But I was struck how the car just ignored the pedestrians obviously waiting to cross and there were lines painted on the crosswalk. Maybe the computer was napping. I often fall asleep when I'm driving too.
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I don't recall. But I was struck how the car just ignored the pedestrians obviously waiting to cross and there were lines painted on the crosswalk. Maybe the computer was napping. I often fall asleep when I'm driving too.
If you'll look at the latest FSD videos, you'll be amazed how effective is FSD.
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If you'll look at the latest FSD videos, you'll be amazed how effective is FSD.
For the obvious things, I think they're fine. But what about the not-so-obvious? For example, you're about to make a left turn at a four-way intersection with stop signs. You check the eyes in the driver on the other side of the road to see that he sees you before starting to turn. That way he doesn't pull out just as you committed to the turn. Will FSD see that?
You see two children playing catch on the sidewalk in front of you to the right. The kid misses the ball and it starts rolling to the curb. You know the kid is going to chase after it. So you remove your foot from the accelerator and feather your brake pedal until the incident passes. Can FSD perform that or will it keep driving waiting for the kid to actually be in the street before trying to stop the car before it may hit the kid?
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For the obvious things, I think they're fine. But what about the not-so-obvious? For example, you're about to make a left turn at a four-way intersection with stop signs. You check the eyes in the driver on the other side of the road to see that he sees you before starting to turn. That way he doesn't pull out just as you committed to the turn. Will FSD see that?
You see two children playing catch on the sidewalk in front of you to the right. The kid misses the ball and it starts rolling to the curb. You know the kid is going to chase after it. So you remove your foot from the accelerator and feather your brake pedal until the incident passes. Can FSD perform that or will it keep driving waiting for the kid to actually be in the street before trying to stop the car before it may hit the kid?
The AIs will over time be able to train themselves to deal with these situations. I wonder how they will deal with teenagers who suddenly jump out in front and stand there on a dare or just to relieve boredom. Maybe carjackers will learnt to take advantage of this, it's an easy way to stop a car, since they know the car will always stop. I wonder how hackers will tamper with the firmware. When the self-driving car fails, who do you sue? Learning to navigate traffic might turn out to be the easy part.
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The AIs will over time being to train themselves to deal with these situations. I wonder how they will deal with teenagers who suddenly jump out in front and stand there on a dare or just to relieve boredom. Maybe carjackers will learnt to take advantage of this, it's an easy way to stop a car, since they know the car will always stop. I wonder how hackers will tamper with the firmware. When the self-driving car fails, who do you sue? Learning to navigate traffic might turn out to be the easy part.
In NYC, what will it do when the homeless guy comes up to clean your windshield and ask for a buck?
Getting back to what they'll learn. But how many accidents will occur in the learning process? Frankly, I don't see how they can learn the samples I gave. First off, are the cameras so fine that they can see the eyes of other drivers much less determine the acknowledgment you get from another driver that it's OK to pull out and make the turn?
That raises the opposite situation. How will other drivers know what the Telsa car is thinking before making its turn? There's a lot of winks and nods going on among drivers especially in street traffic in towns and cities. In NYC I'm watching what pedestrians see and their actions. There are jaywalkers all over the place who aren't paying attention to traffic signals or crosswalks. There are all sorts of signals between them and drivers, waves and nods to precede or not. Communication is constant. How is AI going to see and handle these things?
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Very interesting. How good are battery operated hydraulics. I am assuming they would be good enough to run sprayers and such.
Although it is more of a once every couple of decades thing to do, and may just be better to sub out when needed, I wonder how well these tractors are with deep ripping of hardpan? I realize, just like anything other standard tractor, they would never be able to go down 4 or 5 feet in solid Cali hardpan, but 2.5 feet on loam would be nice.
PS
I did look up the Solectrac thin profile tractor and the major issue I see is no mention of an hydraulic system. Perhaps on future models? but a deal breaker for any operations that need a sprayer. Also, it is ugly!
Here is another electric tractor - Monarch:
(https://www.producebluebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Monarch-Tractor-Final-Banner.png)
https://www.producebluebook.com/2021/11/19/monarch-tractor-secures-funding-to-complete-production-of-smart-electric-tractor/#
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For the obvious things, I think they're fine. But what about the not-so-obvious? For example, you're about to make a left turn at a four-way intersection with stop signs. You check the eyes in the driver on the other side of the road to see that he sees you before starting to turn. That way he doesn't pull out just as you committed to the turn. Will FSD see that?
You see two children playing catch on the sidewalk in front of you to the right. The kid misses the ball and it starts rolling to the curb. You know the kid is going to chase after it. So you remove your foot from the accelerator and feather your brake pedal until the incident passes. Can FSD perform that or will it keep driving waiting for the kid to actually be in the street before trying to stop the car before it may hit the kid?
Tesla has captured and evaluated billions of driven miles. Waymo has millions of miles, but their hardware is more robust, including radars and lidars. Both companies add also many millions of simulated miles and these are the hard-core test situations into which they can insert the dangerous elements, like a sudden pedestrian or animal move, rain and snow, missing lane markings, or unidentified objects appearing on the horizon. In addition to the vast databases filled with all kinds of situations, the hardware itself is also improving, especially when it comes to greater sensor sensitivity and resolution, and with improvements in computational speed. To sum it up, FSD is getting better with time.
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I looked at a test drive video from last month. The Tesla seemed to have many issues with just normal driving on a relatively quiet suburban road. It had a lot of hesitancy and the driver had to keep adjusting things. The technology is not up to human standards which shows just how amazing our abilities are. This shows just how complicated some tasks are. The amount of data processed by humans driving and their reactions is amazing. I don't know if The EV technology will ever get there. It may be limited to certain circumstances like highway driving on nterstates.
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I looked at a test drive video from last month. The Tesla seemed to have many issues with just normal driving on a relatively quiet suburban road. It had a lot of hesitancy and the driver had to keep adjusting things. The technology is not up to human standards which shows just how amazing our abilities are. This shows just how complicated some tasks are. The amount of data processed by humans driving and their reactions is amazing. I don't know if The EV technology will ever get there. It may be limited to certain circumstances like highway driving on nterstates.
Autonomous driving it is not linked exclusively to EVs. it could be theoretically applied also to ICE cars. Yes, FSD has some issues at this time, it hasn't been released officially yet, it is still in beta stage. Maybe 90-95% ready. That's better that many human drivers I see on the roads. Come and check it out again later this year.
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Autonomous driving it is not linked exclusively to EVs. it could be theoretically applied also to ICE cars. Yes, FSD has some issues at this time, it hasn't been released officially yet, it is still in beta stage. Maybe 90-95% ready. That's better that many human drivers I see on the roads. Come and check it out again later this year.
Here's the video of the test drive I watched. Except for drivers here in New Jersey where I live, most humans drive better. :)
https://youtu.be/7WijopiCq5s
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In 1958, a chess program (NSS) beat a human player for the first time. Over the years, many computers took on many chess masters, and the computers lost. It took another 39 years before an IBM computer Deep Blue beat the world chess champion after a six-game match: two wins for IBM, one for the champion and three draws.
The IBM machine could explore up to 200 million possible chess positions per second. The chess grandmaster won the first game, Deep Blue took the next one, and the two players drew the three following games. Game 6 ended the match with a crushing defeat of the champion by Deep Blue.
It won't take that long for the FSD to beat a human in navigating through New York or win a race on Nurnburgring.
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In 1958, a chess program (NSS) beat a human player for the first time. Over the years, many computers took on many chess masters, and the computers lost. It took another 39 years before an IBM computer Deep Blue beat the world chess champion after a six-game match: two wins for IBM, one for the champion and three draws.
It won't take that long for the FSD to beat a human in navigating through New York or win a race on Nurnburgring.
I hope you're right. I'm getting older and could reach a point where I can't drive much anymore.
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I realize, just like anything other standard tractor, they would never be able to go down 4 or 5 feet in solid Cali hardpan,
I've shot heavy construction all over the world. No machine I've ever seen could do that, except possibly a D9H with a ripper.
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Here is a Rivian R1T driving up in a steep canyon.
Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeth5v_5dPM
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I wouldn't want to be standing where that guy is.
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I wouldn't want to be standing where that guy is.
The truck is moving very slowly. Watch the video.
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OK I changed my mind. I wouldn't want to be the driver. ;)
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OK I changed my mind. I wouldn't want to be the driver. ;)
I wouldn't want to be the owner of the truck.
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I wouldn't want to be the owner of the truck.
I could just see the accident report to the insurance company: I was driving up this mountain bluff and....
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This was filmed on Rivian promotion day in September 2021. All trucks owned by Rivian company. Here is another, even more narrowing scene from that canyon. Start at 3.00'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86lXvVIMmes
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Why is that blue car at the bottom where he is? What a dummy.
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Why is that blue car at the bottom where he is? What a dummy.
I guess, he is anxious to join the fun. Or to stop any trucks rolling down the canyon.
I think it was filmed on the Hell's Revenge Trail in Utah.
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I guess, he is anxious to join the fun. Or to stop any trucks rolling down the canyon.
I think it was filmed on the Hell's Revenge Trail in Utah.
Appropriate name for the trail.
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Additionally, a property with a barn typically comes with a decent amount of acres and the need for a tractor. I have been researching those as well, especially thin profile versions designed for vineyards. Along with with needing the right amount of horse-power and hydraulics for any attachments, one of the biggest issues with tractors, it turns out, is the large rear wheels make them prone to rolling over backwards, which could kill the driver.
I'm not a farmer and my experience is limited, but I do have some experience doing seasonal summer work on a farm and driving a tractor. When I was in high school, I spent three summers working for a small family farmer. My main duties were driving the tractor for hay baling and livestock operations, feeding livestock, and being the catcher and stacker for storing bales in a hay loft. The latter quickly taught me the weight difference in bales depending on what we baled that day. Bales of straw, grass, and alfalfa are much different in weight. Believe me, you notice the difference when you're leaning over a loft with heavy gloves and a long sleeve shirt to avoid being cut to ribbons and catching bales, being thrown up to you, with a couple of baling hooks to stack over and over. I don't even want to think what the temperature was in the top of that loft on a hot summer day!
It was hard physical labor! I was a city boy that worked those three years because it was a family friend, for the experience, and the exercise. I learned that I never wanted to work that hard again in my life! I was young and athletic, but this farmer in his 50s made me look like a weakling in comparison. He had biceps like a Virginia ham and could cock a heavy bale back on his shoulder and shoot it straight up in the air for me to catch, which I somehow managed to do almost every time. Yeah, no conveyor to bring the bales up to me. Don't ask me why because I never asked. The experience was good for me; because anytime in later life I thought that the work I was doing was difficult at the moment, I would remember working on that farm and think, this really isn't so bad. It was an exercise in character building to do that farm work which gave me an appreciation for what hard work actually meant.
Because Joe is a food guy, I'll mention those farm lunches were memorable. The farmer was a widower, but his mother and aunt prepared lunch each day with veggies from their garden, potatoes of some kind, freshly baked bread or rolls, and lots of protein. In addition to whatever meat was being served, there was always a big platter of fried eggs from the chickens they raised. We not only worked off the big lunch, but would stop for a short mid-afternoon snack and then back to work.
So, about tractors that I drove on a small farm... I drove two that he owned. One was a very old one-cylinder tractor inherited from his dad and the other much more modern. Both tractors were the utility type that you generally see on small farms. If some heavier or more specialized type of equipment, like a bulldozer or backhoe, were needed he hired someone to come do that job for him.
Driving and hauling with a tractor is very different from driving a car or truck. I got a lot of instruction on when, where, and why to use each gear; when and how to use the brake when hauling; and selecting the right path to steer. This was not only to get the job done efficiently, but to minimize safety risks as well—for both of us, as he was generally in a wagon attached directly to the tractor or behind the baler whenever I was driving. The primary safety mechanism in place was his knowledge of what the limits were for load hauling across different parts of his farm for each tractor.
As for rollover protection structures (ROPS), there was none with the tractors that I drove which made listening to his instructions all the more important. Today, however, I'm pretty sure that all tractors being sold have ROPS to protect the driver.
Sorry for the long intro, but if any young people are reading this and want to give farm work a try... It's a great life lesson in learning about hard work, but it will often be a miserable physically demanding grind. On the plus side, the food was great if you enjoy down-home country cooking! You'll earn that food though as well as work it off quickly.
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Here is another electric tractor - Monarch:
https://www.producebluebook.com/2021/11/19/monarch-tractor-secures-funding-to-complete-production-of-smart-electric-tractor/#
The Monarch looks interesting! I watched their introduction video of what I believe is their first model.
https://www.youtube.com/Monarch I Launch Video 2020 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcpi4vR-_44)
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My main duties were driving the tractor for hay baling and livestock operations, feeding livestock, and being the catcher and stacker for storing bales in a hay loft. The latter quickly taught me the weight difference in bales depending on what we baled that day. Bales of straw, grass, and alfalfa are much different in weight.
...
Driving and hauling with a tractor is very different from driving a car or truck. I got a lot of instruction on when, where, and why to use each gear; when and how to use the brake when hauling; and selecting the right path to steer. This was not only to get the job done efficiently, but to minimize safety risks as well—for both of us, as he was generally in a wagon attached directly to the tractor or behind the baler whenever I was driving. The primary safety mechanism in place was his knowledge of what the limits were for load hauling across different parts of his farm for each tractor.
Working with bales of hay can be dangerous even today. Last year, a local farmer was delivering hay bales to a nearby horse farm where my friend rides, and as he was unloading the bales, one bale fell on him and killed him.
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Working with bales of hay can be dangerous even today. Last year, a local farmer was delivering hay bales to a nearby horse farm where my friend rides, and as he was unloading the bales, one bale fell on him and killed him.
That's pretty awful. So sorry for your friend's death.
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My friend is OK, she just reported the accident.
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My friend is OK, she just reported the accident.
Oh, I misread it. It was the farmer who died. Glad your friend is OK and sorry about the farmer.
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The stress from covid and economic hardship creates all kinds of depressions and despicable desparados.
A full page advertisement in Sunday's New York Times took aim at Tesla's "Full Self-Driving" software, calling it "the worst software ever sold by a Fortune 500 company" and offering $10,000, the same price as the software itself to the first person who could name "another commercial product from a Fortune 500 company that has a critical malfunction every 8 minutes."
The ad was taken out by The Dawn Project, a recently founded organization aiming to ban unsafe software from safety critical systems that can be targeted by military-style hackers, as part of a campaign to remove Tesla Full Self-Driving (FSD) from public roads until it has "1,000 times fewer critical malfunctions." The founder of the advocacy group, Dan O'Dowd, is also the CEO of Green Hill Software, a company that builds operating systems and programming tools for embedded safety and security systems.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/york-times-ad-warns-against-214027879.html
Dave Lee, a respected youtuber on Tesla and other technological and financial matters was compelled to post his own take on the hater and his $150,000 ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e07H2kE6l7k 10 minutes long, worth every second. If in time crunch, you can speed it up to 1.25.
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The stress from covid and economic hardship creates all kinds of depressions and despicable desparados.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/york-times-ad-warns-against-214027879.html
Dave Lee, a respected youtuber on Tesla and other technological and financial matters was compelled to post his own take on the hater and his $150,000 ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e07H2kE6l7k 10 minutes long, worth every second. If in time crunch, you can speed it up to 1.25.
I read the article and watched the video. The person who took out the ad is a competitor and it appears to me that he's looking for publicity for his own software. His software cannot be hacked and is in use in American military systems like the B1A bomber and F35 jet. His argument is FSD can be hacked.
He also claims that FSD is unsafe on the roads which seems to be somewhat supported by others. Frankly, from the FSD videos I saw, it's not up to driving safely on its own. California is reviewing the license granted to Tesla because of safety issues and Consumer Reports will be testing it on their own soon.
David Lee seems to like Tesla. So his anger at the ad seemed biased. His video didn't make sense in some areas. The NY Times where the ad was placed does not require open discourse from the ad placer or to reveal so called conflicts of interest. It's known that the ad placer's company provides software for BMW electric cars and other ICE cars across the industry as well as the aforementioned US military. Also, the Times cannot editorialize ads. It's not their business and they don't get involved usually. This is all about two big guys competing with each other.
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I read the article and watched the video. The person who took out the ad is a competitor and it appears to me that he's looking for publicity for his own software. His software cannot be hacked and is in use in American military systems like the B1A bomber and F35 jet. His argument is FSD can be hacked.
He also claims that FSD is unsafe on the roads which seems to be somewhat supported by others. Frankly, from the FSD videos I saw, it's not up to driving safely on its own. California is reviewing the license granted to Tesla because of safety issues and Consumer Reports will be testing it on their own soon.
David Lee seems to like Tesla. So his anger at the ad seemed biased. His video didn't make sense in some areas. The NY Times where the ad was placed does not require open discourse from the ad placer or to reveal so called conflicts of interest. It's known that the ad placer's company provides software for BMW electric cars and other ICE cars across the industry as well as the aforementioned US military. Also, the Times cannot editorialize ads. It's not their business and they don't get involved usually. This is all about two big guys competing with each other.
I pointed out more than once that the current FSD is not a fully functioning software, it is a Beta testing version.
When you drive a car using FSD Beta, you have access to the steering wheel, mirrors, screen display and pedals, and you can take over at anytime.
Compare it to the current practice of parents in USA teaching their offsprings how to drive a car. The young beta driver is a ticking time bomb compared to the Tesla FSD. If the kid makes a mistake, the parent could grab a wheel, but he can't press the brake or gas pedal to escape from a precarious situation. That practice should be banned before criticizing autonomous software. Most other developed countries don't allow teaching someone to drive without a second set of pedals and teaching certificate. The FSD in its current version has a better track record than the teenage driving learners.
Why do we allow teenagers driving with adult supervision in technically inadequate vehicles? The reason why we allow teenagers to drive with learners permit is that they need to learn how to drive. Similarly, FSD needs to be driven and collect more miles in order to learn how to drive better.
The stats comparing the driving accidents with or without FSD are quite impressive. In Q4 2021, Tesla has recorded one crash per 4.31 million miles driven using Autopilot (or FSD). Compare it with NHTSA data which shows one automotive crash per 484,000 miles driven, so even FSD Beta in its current form is about 9 times less deadly than an average drive without FSD. In addition, the FSD accident stats are improving every quarter. In other words, NHTSA and the Green Hill Software dude criticizing Tesla's FSD are in effect advocating killings by drivers without FSD or Autopilot.
In 2019, almost 2,400 teens in the United States aged 13–19 were killed1,2 and about 258,000 were treated in emergency departments for injuries suffered in motor vehicle crashes.1 That means that every day, about seven teens died due to motor vehicle crashes, and hundreds more were injured. In addition, motor vehicle crash deaths among teens 15–19 years of age resulted in about $4.8 billion in medical and work loss costs for crashes that occurred in 2018.
The risk of motor vehicle crashes is higher among teens aged 16–19 than among any other age group. In fact, per mile driven, teen drivers in this age group are nearly three times as likely as drivers aged 20 or older to be in a fatal crash.
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html
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I pointed out more than once that the current FSD is not a fully functioning software, it is a Beta testing version.
When you drive a car using FSD Beta, you have access to the steering wheel, mirrors, screen display and pedals, and you can take over at anytime.
Compare it to the current practice of parents in USA teaching their offsprings how to drive a car. The young beta driver is a ticking time bomb compared to the Tesla FSD. If the kid makes a mistake, the parent could grab a wheel, but he can't press the brake or gas pedal to escape from a precarious situation. That practice should be banned before criticizing autonomous software. Most other developed countries don't allow teaching someone to drive without a second set of pedals and teaching certificate. The FSD in its current version has a better track record than the teenage driving learners.
Why do we allow teenagers driving with adult supervision in technically inadequate vehicles? The reason why we allow teenagers to drive with learners permit is that they need to learn how to drive. Similarly, FSD needs to be driven and collect more miles in order to learn how to drive better.
The stats comparing the driving accidents with or without FSD are quite impressive. In Q4 2021, Tesla has recorded one crash per 4.31 million miles driven using Autopilot (or FSD). Compare it with NHTSA data which shows one automotive crash per 484,000 miles driven, so even FSD Beta in its current form is about 9 times less deadly than an average drive without FSD. In addition, the FSD accident stats are improving every quarter. In other words, NHTSA and the Green Hill Software dude criticizing Tesla's FSD are in effect advocating killings by drivers without FSD or Autopilot.
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html
If the FSD misbehaves, do we ground it for a week?
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If the FSD misbehaves, do we ground it for a week?
Yes, and also take away the Internet privileges.
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I pointed out more than once that the current FSD is not a fully functioning software, it is a Beta testing version.
When you drive a car using FSD Beta, you have access to the steering wheel, mirrors, screen display and pedals, and you can take over at anytime.
Compare it to the current practice of parents in USA teaching their offsprings how to drive a car. The young beta driver is a ticking time bomb compared to the Tesla FSD. If the kid makes a mistake, the parent could grab a wheel, but he can't press the brake or gas pedal to escape from a precarious situation. That practice should be banned before criticizing autonomous software. Most other developed countries don't allow teaching someone to drive without a second set of pedals and teaching certificate. The FSD in its current version has a better track record than the teenage driving learners.
Why do we allow teenagers driving with adult supervision in technically inadequate vehicles? The reason why we allow teenagers to drive with learners permit is that they need to learn how to drive. Similarly, FSD needs to be driven and collect more miles in order to learn how to drive better.
The stats comparing the driving accidents with or without FSD are quite impressive. In Q4 2021, Tesla has recorded one crash per 4.31 million miles driven using Autopilot (or FSD). Compare it with NHTSA data which shows one automotive crash per 484,000 miles driven, so even FSD Beta in its current form is about 9 times less deadly than an average drive without FSD. In addition, the FSD accident stats are improving every quarter. In other words, NHTSA and the Green Hill Software dude criticizing Tesla's FSD are in effect advocating killings by drivers without FSD or Autopilot.
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html
Well, one advantage of FSD over teenagers is they don't speed or drink.
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As expected, today Tesla released a record Q4 earnings report, beating all estimates.
Perhaps the most important thing of the entire presentation was that Elon Musk sees even more potential in the autonomous driving and Optimus robot than in the new line of cars. Consequently, Cybertruck and smaller Model 2 (or call it Model A or Q) are now pushed into 2023 and 2024.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-beats-fourth-quarter-estimates-222259665.html
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Elon Musk sees even more potential in the autonomous driving and Optimus robot than in the new line of cars.
::) Elon is such a doofus sometimes.
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I'm waiting for an adult-sized autonomous driving powered tricycle.
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I'm waiting for an adult-sized autonomous driving powered tricycle.
Below is the Arcimoto, a three wheel adult-sized tricycle, powered by battery. At this time, it is steered by a human, but they are planning to add a third-party autonomous driving software - possibly from Tesla, when they release it.
https://www.arcimoto.com
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Here's a story about the Tesla recall, https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-2022-self-driving-software-rolling-stop-54000-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=150441965 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-2022-self-driving-software-rolling-stop-54000-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=150441965).
Why do they have to recall them, can't they just download the new software and reboot?
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Here's a story about the Tesla recall, https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-2022-self-driving-software-rolling-stop-54000-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=150441965 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-recall-2022-self-driving-software-rolling-stop-54000-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=150441965).
Why do they have to recall them, can't they just download the new software and reboot?
What's interesting about the car not stopping at stop signs, the reason for the recall, was that the video I saw on Youtube showing the auto-drive program working in real-time, it showed the car not stopping at a crosswalk when two people were in it by the curb waiting to cross. Clearly a violation and issue. I wonder if the two issues re related?
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What's interesting about the car not stopping at stop signs, the reason for the recall, was that the video I saw on Youtube showing the auto-drive program working in real-time, it showed the car not stopping at a crosswalk when two people were in it by the curb waiting to cross. Clearly a violation and issue. I wonder if the two issues re related?
It was a software instruction issue, the programmers thought it makes more sense to just slow down when the sensors don't detect any moving objects in the intersection. Common sense, but paradoxically a clear violation of US and Canadian traffic rules. They already made the software change which will be downloaded over the air to Tesla cars with FSD.
IMO, the 4-stop rule on an intersection is one of the stupidest rules. Made by idiots for idiots. In Europe, you see very few full stop signs, most intersections have Yield signs or roundabouts.
Maybe once most cars use some kind of Autosteer and motion sensors, they could do away with the full stop signs.
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It was a software instruction issue, the programmers thought it makes more sense to just slow down when the sensors don't detect any moving objects in the intersection. Common sense, but paradoxically a clear violation of US and Canadian traffic rules. They already made the software change which will be downloaded over the air to Tesla cars with FSD.
IMO, the 4-stop rule on an intersection is one of the stupidest rules. Made by idiots for idiots. In Europe, you see very few full stop signs, most intersections have Yield signs or roundabouts.
Maybe once most cars use some kind of Autosteer and motion sensors, they could do away with the full stop signs.
From what I heard, most Europeans treat Stop signs like Yield signs anyway. So they got rid of them ;)
In any case, what will the new software do? Here are the rules for a four-way stop? I think there's a lot of guesswork that goes on depending where you drive.
https://www.topdriver.com/education-blog/4-rules-4-way-stops/#:~:text=When%20two%20vehicles%20arrive%20at,right%20of%20them%20have%20passed.
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It was a software instruction issue, the programmers thought it makes more sense to just slow down when the sensors don't detect any moving objects in the intersection. Common sense, but paradoxically a clear violation of US and Canadian traffic rules. They already made the software change which will be downloaded over the air to Tesla cars with FSD.
IMO, the 4-stop rule on an intersection is one of the stupidest rules. Made by idiots for idiots. In Europe, you see very few full stop signs, most intersections have Yield signs or roundabouts.
Maybe once most cars use some kind of Autosteer and motion sensors, they could do away with the full stop signs.
Four-way stops are a bane for traffic engineers too, they don't want them. Many of them are installed because of neighbourhood citizen demands. Environment measurement in the immediate areas near the 4-way stops show much more pollution than elsewhere, and they cause rush hours to last longer. Here in Ottawa we're getting lots of roundabouts now. There was some protest at first, how they would confuse people and would cause more accidents, none of which happened. My opinion is that if you can't figure out how to get through a roundabout, it's time to take yourself off the road and take some refresher driver training.
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Four-way stops are a bane for traffic engineers too, they don't want them. Many of them are installed because of neighbourhood citizen demands. Environment measurement in the immediate areas near the 4-way stops show much more pollution than elsewhere, and they cause rush hours to last longer. Here in Ottawa we're getting lots of roundabouts now. There was some protest at first, how they would confuse people and would cause more accidents, none of which happened. My opinion is that if you can't figure out how to get through a roundabout, it's time to take yourself off the road and take some refresher driver training.
I thought roundabouts were mainly to eliminate traffic lights. In residential areas, there's not enough room to make roundabouts and the four-way stops are there because it's cheaper than traffic lights. You could use yields on one street and stops on the other. But I think there are more accidents that way. A four-way stop forces everyone to stop and look before proceeding. People don't pay attention to yields. Apparently, neither do Teslas. :)
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It was a software instruction issue, the programmers thought it makes more sense to just slow down when the sensors don't detect any moving objects in the intersection. ...
You know, allowing programmers to write code that violates traffic laws because they thought it was a good idea does not fill me with confidence. This sounds like another instance of the silicone valley mentality of forcing users to be unpaid beta-testers. And I say that as someone who earned his living as a software engineer for 25 years.
Has it been resolved who gets the traffic ticket when the AI mis-behaves? Who can you sue when someone gets killed? Is this kind of thing covered by regular insurance policies?
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I thought roundabouts were mainly to eliminate traffic lights. In residential areas, there's not enough room to make roundabouts and the four-way stops are there because it's cheaper than traffic lights. You could use yields on one street and stops on the other. But I think there are more accidents that way. A four-way stop forces everyone to stop and look before proceeding. People don't pay attention to yields. Apparently, neither do Teslas. :)
Roundabouts facilitate faster traffic flow through intersections. Saving the traffic light installation, exhaust and acoustic pollutions as well as energy consumption is just a bonus.
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It was a software instruction issue, the programmers thought it makes more sense to just slow down when the sensors don't detect any moving objects in the intersection. Common sense, but paradoxically a clear violation of US and Canadian traffic rules. They already made the software change which will be downloaded over the air to Tesla cars with FSD.
IMO, the 4-stop rule on an intersection is one of the stupidest rules. Made by idiots for idiots. In Europe, you see very few full stop signs, most intersections have Yield signs or roundabouts.
Maybe once most cars use some kind of Autosteer and motion sensors, they could do away with the full stop signs.
Les, How does the new program work? Attached are the rules for crosswalks at least in Texas. Of course, if your Tesla hits a Texan in the crosswalk, you'd better be ready for a gunfight.
https://www.thehartlawfirm.com/faqs/do-you-know-when-pedestrians-do-not-have-the-right-of-way-.cfm
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You know, allowing programmers to write code that violates traffic laws because they thought it was a good idea does not fill me with confidence. This sounds like another instance of the silicone valley mentality of forcing users to be unpaid beta-testers. And I say that as someone who earned his living as a software engineer for 25 years.
Has it been resolved who gets the traffic ticket when the AI mis-behaves? Who can you sue when someone gets killed? Is this kind of thing covered by regular insurance policies?
From what I heard about Tesla, the employees are allowed to make mistakes and if anything goes wrong, they are quick to fix the mistakes. In one specific week, they made 27 changes to the software and hardware, while GM made 2 changes in the entire year. Well, if you make only 26 cars per quarter, that's not so bad.
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Les, How does the new program work? Attached are the rules for crosswalks at least in Texas. Of course, if your Tesla hits a Texan in the crosswalk, you'd better be ready for a gunfight.
https://www.thehartlawfirm.com/faqs/do-you-know-when-pedestrians-do-not-have-the-right-of-way-.cfm
I don't know the current status. I guess, the car will come to a full stop, look around and take off like a rocket. Model S should depart from the scene quicker than Model 3.
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Roundabouts facilitate faster traffic flow through intersections. Saving the traffic light installation, exhaust and acoustic pollutions as well as energy consumption is just a bonus.
New Jersey where I now live is known for jughandles. To make a left from most main roads, you turn off to the right and then cross back over the main road to make the left. It looks like a jughandle from a drone. But not always. Sometimes, there's a left-turn lane in the main road you're turning off of. It's all very confusing to this New Yorker to know what's coming up and which lane you should be in.
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Of course, in New Jersey, the gas stations have to fill up your gas tanks, by law. You're not allowed to do it. So they do something that's right. Especially when it's raining or snowing and 5 degrees.
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From what I heard about Tesla, the employees are allowed to make mistakes and if anything goes wrong, they are quick to fix the mistakes. In one specific week, they made 27 changes to the software and hardware, while GM made 2 changes in the entire year. Well, if you make only 26 cars per quarter, that's not so bad.
I understand CEO Bara made the changes herself.
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I understand CEO Bara made the changes herself.
Poor lady. She's been roasted million times in the last few months. Now, we know why nobody wants her job.
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From what I heard about Tesla, the employees are allowed to make mistakes and if anything goes wrong, they are quick to fix the mistakes. In one specific week, they made 27 changes to the software and hardware, ...
This is no way fills me with confidence. Moving fast and breaking things might be ok in cute little "friendy" social media toy apps, but real world things need more thought and testing than that.
The real test of AI will come when it has to deal with the world's teenagers. Once all those kids figure out how much fun it is to step out onto the roadway and have all those cars come to a grinding halt, traffic will become a nightmare, especially near high schools. You thought that throwing eggs at buildings was a nuisance?
Might even make car jacking easier. :)
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I saw a funny comment on Facebook yesterday where someone wondered why a company like Tesla that has over 100 lawyers on staff could allow software to be distributed that allowed the car to roll through a stop sign. I figure this is a just a case of letting customers do the beta testing, a long held silicone valley strategy, imo. :)
Just a follow-up question regarding legal questions re FSD or even partial AI control in case there are people reading here who might know about these things. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have control over the software that runs the cars. Users do not have access to the code and neither do insurance companies. So when something goes wrong, and something will go wrong, what is the legal framework? Who's to blame? Who gets sued?
I assume that a Tesla user (or other) either implicitly or explicitly has to agree to new software downloads in the same way we all agree to terms for any software we download/install. Are there clauses in those agreements (that no one reads) that absolves the manufacturer from culpability? Maybe I'm cynical but I can't see them doing otherwise. There's a long history of corporations downloading blame and culpability to users. At the very least, I can see it being the initial default position that might come in handy in later court trials. Have they been paving the way for this with other legal precedents?
Are there clauses in insurance company agreements that absolves them from payouts in case of AI failure? I can see where they might want that. And are there insurance companies that refuse to sell insurance to drivers of some models?
I may be wrong but the impression I have is that in the US these things don't tend to be designed comprehensively planned well from the outset. The impression I have is that the modus operandi is to let things happen and then let others sort it out in the courts later. This may be a completely incorrect impression on my part, it's only a feeling I have. Is the area of FSD proceeding in that manner?
I can imagine a situation where someone downloads an AI version with a bug that results in a bad outcome. The injured party sues, the insurance company refuses to pay on some pretext, and the owner of the car cannot produce the code to prove that it was a software error. Not many drivers will have the resources to sustain that 10 year court battle.
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I saw a funny comment on Facebook yesterday where someone wondered why a company like Tesla that has over 100 lawyers on staff could allow software to be distributed that allowed the car to roll through a stop sign. I figure this is a just a case of letting customers do the beta testing, a long held silicone valley strategy, imo. :)
Just a follow-up question regarding legal questions re FSD or even partial AI control in case there are people reading here who might know about these things. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have control over the software that runs the cars. Users do not have access to the code and neither do insurance companies. So when something goes wrong, and something will go wrong, what is the legal framework? Who's to blame? Who gets sued?
I assume that a Tesla user (or other) either implicitly or explicitly has to agree to new software downloads in the same way we all agree to terms for any software we download/install. Are there clauses in those agreements (that no one reads) that absolves the manufacturer from culpability? Maybe I'm cynical but I can't see them doing otherwise. There's a long history of corporations downloading blame and culpability to users. At the very least, I can see it being the initial default position that might come in handy in later court trials. Have they been paving the way for this with other legal precedents?
Are there clauses in insurance company agreements that absolves them from payouts in case of AI failure? I can see where they might want that. And are there insurance companies that refuse to sell insurance to drivers of some models?
I may be wrong but the impression I have is that in the US these things don't tend to be designed comprehensively planned well from the outset. The impression I have is that the modus operandi is to let things happen and then let others sort it out in the courts later. This may be a completely incorrect impression on my part, it's only a feeling I have. Is the area of FSD proceeding in that manner?
I can imagine a situation where someone downloads an AI version with a bug that results in a bad outcome. The injured party sues, the insurance company refuses to pay on some pretext, and the owner of the car cannot produce the code to prove that it was a software error. Not many drivers will have the resources to sustain that 10 year court battle.
It's more complicated than that. You can't just drive a car automatically. The law in most states requires the driver to have complete control of the car, both hands on the wheel. I believe California (and maybe some other states) has granted Tesla a waiver to test their software and cars under certain circumstances. There's also discussion to pull that right because of accidents. So you'll have to check the rules that allow the right. It may require insurance coverage beyond normal that Tesla is paying for.
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I saw a funny comment on Facebook yesterday where someone wondered why a company like Tesla that has over 100 lawyers on staff could allow software to be distributed that allowed the car to roll through a stop sign. I figure this is a just a case of letting customers do the beta testing, a long held silicone valley strategy, imo. :)
Just a follow-up question regarding legal questions re FSD or even partial AI control in case there are people reading here who might know about these things. Tesla (and other manufacturers) have control over the software that runs the cars. Users do not have access to the code and neither do insurance companies. So when something goes wrong, and something will go wrong, what is the legal framework? Who's to blame? Who gets sued?
I assume that a Tesla user (or other) either implicitly or explicitly has to agree to new software downloads in the same way we all agree to terms for any software we download/install. Are there clauses in those agreements (that no one reads) that absolves the manufacturer from culpability? Maybe I'm cynical but I can't see them doing otherwise. There's a long history of corporations downloading blame and culpability to users. At the very least, I can see it being the initial default position that might come in handy in later court trials. Have they been paving the way for this with other legal precedents?
Are there clauses in insurance company agreements that absolves them from payouts in case of AI failure? I can see where they might want that. And are there insurance companies that refuse to sell insurance to drivers of some models?
I may be wrong but the impression I have is that in the US these things don't tend to be designed comprehensively planned well from the outset. The impression I have is that the modus operandi is to let things happen and then let others sort it out in the courts later. This may be a completely incorrect impression on my part, it's only a feeling I have. Is the area of FSD proceeding in that manner?
I can imagine a situation where someone downloads an AI version with a bug that results in a bad outcome. The injured party sues, the insurance company refuses to pay on some pretext, and the owner of the car cannot produce the code to prove that it was a software error. Not many drivers will have the resources to sustain that 10 year court battle.
As to the rolling stop, the way Tesla implemented it, it was quite safe. Definitely safer than most humans drive through the stop sign.
Their "rolling stop" feature allowed vehicles to travel through all-way stop intersections at up to 5.6 mph under certain conditions. Drivers had to set their vehicle to a "full self-driving" style that included the feature. The vehicle's "chill" setting, the setting a user can select that drives the most conservatively of the options Tesla gives drivers, is not described as including the feature. The other settings, "average" and "assertive," include the feature.
The "rolling stop" function also required that no relevant moving cars or pedestrian or bicyclists were detected near the intersection. The function wouldn't activate without sufficient visibility, and all roads entering the intersection need to have a speed limit of no more than 30 mph. Tesla complied with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration request and disabled the rolling stop option.
At this time, FSD has not been officially released, it is still in Beta stage, and the drivers who use it, are fully responsible for driving, steering and stopping.
Most likely, at this time, all insurance companies stipulate as well that the driver is responsible for any accidents. Once FSD is officially released, drivers with Tesla insurance will be not be liable for the accidents, the insurance will cover it. I'm not sure how quickly will the other insurance companies adjust to the FSD or other self-driving versions.
As to releases of new FSD versions (after it has been officially released) I wouldn't worry about new bugs appearing in them. Tesla will test regressively all new FSD versions on their existing and simulated data which should catch any bugs.
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As to the rolling stop, the way Tesla implemented it, it was quite safe. Definitely safer than most humans drive through the stop sign.
Their "rolling stop" feature allowed vehicles to travel through all-way stop intersections at up to 5.6 mph under certain conditions. Drivers had to set their vehicle to a "full self-driving" style that included the feature. The vehicle's "chill" setting, the setting a user can select that drives the most conservatively of the options Tesla gives drivers, is not described as including the feature. The other settings, "average" and "assertive," include the feature.
The "rolling stop" function also required that no relevant moving cars or pedestrian or bicyclists were detected near the intersection. The function wouldn't activate without sufficient visibility, and all roads entering the intersection need to have a speed limit of no more than 30 mph. Tesla complied with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration request and disabled the rolling stop option.
At this time, FSD has not been officially released, it is still in Beta stage, and the drivers who use it, are fully responsible for driving, steering and stopping.
Most likely, at this time, all insurance companies stipulate as well that the driver is responsible for any accidents. Once FSD is officially released, drivers with Tesla insurance will be not be liable for the accidents, the insurance will cover it. I'm not sure how quickly will the other insurance companies adjust to the FSD or other self-driving versions.
As to releases of new FSD versions (after it has been officially released) I wouldn't worry about new bugs appearing in them. Tesla will test regressively all new FSD versions on their existing and simulated data which should catch any bugs.
I don't think it is the proper place of Tesla engineers to redefine what a safe stop procedure is. Silicone valley does not decide public policy.
Your last statement is very optimistic.
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I don't think it is the proper place of Tesla engineers to redefine what a safe stop procedure is. Silicone valley does not decide public policy.
Your last statement is very optimistic.
I don't justify Tesla's interpretation of rolling stop. Although I think, the present full stop rule is idiotic and most probably designed to prevent accidents caused by idiots.
I spent some time developing testing software. You design a multitude of the tests based with specific inputs and expected results. Typically, every new software version will require additional test cases. You can then run the test program automatically every time a new software is released.
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I don't think it is the proper place of Tesla engineers to redefine what a safe stop procedure is. Silicone valley does not decide public policy.
Your last statement is very optimistic.
Agreed on both points. I was at a four-way stop a couple of days ago. I waived the other guy through first. He had the right away since he was on my right. (We both hit the intersection at the same time.) But he was just sitting there waiting for me. How does Tesla do that? Does everyone just sit there like dummies waiting for the other guy to go first? Maybe Teslas can be furnished with a fake hand that pops up to waive the other guy through.
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As to the rolling stop, the way Tesla implemented it, it was quite safe. Definitely safer than most humans drive through the stop sign.
Their "rolling stop" feature allowed vehicles to travel through all-way stop intersections at up to 5.6 mph under certain conditions. Drivers had to set their vehicle to a "full self-driving" style that included the feature. The vehicle's "chill" setting, the setting a user can select that drives the most conservatively of the options Tesla gives drivers, is not described as including the feature. The other settings, "average" and "assertive," include the feature.
The "rolling stop" function also required that no relevant moving cars or pedestrian or bicyclists were detected near the intersection. The function wouldn't activate without sufficient visibility, and all roads entering the intersection need to have a speed limit of no more than 30 mph. Tesla complied with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration request and disabled the rolling stop option.
At this time, FSD has not been officially released, it is still in Beta stage, and the drivers who use it, are fully responsible for driving, steering and stopping.
Most likely, at this time, all insurance companies stipulate as well that the driver is responsible for any accidents. Once FSD is officially released, drivers with Tesla insurance will be not be liable for the accidents, the insurance will cover it. I'm not sure how quickly will the other insurance companies adjust to the FSD or other self-driving versions.
As to releases of new FSD versions (after it has been officially released) I wouldn't worry about new bugs appearing in them. Tesla will test regressively all new FSD versions on their existing and simulated data which should catch any bugs.
The driver is always responsible for the car by government statute not because the insurance companies say it. Tesla or Tesla insurance can't waive it.
Additionally, the whole thing about who's responsible has not been tested in court as far as I know. If a Tesla car runs me over because it didn't stop automatically at the stop sign, I sue the driver, the owner of the car, and possibly Tesla, the company. You don't sue the car. A court will determine who's responsible and how much is their fault.
The question is will Tesla honor the failure of their software and defend the lawsuit and pay the damages or is the driver on the hook? What will other insurance companies do in these situations? They're not going to cover errors in software by Tesla. What will the insurance premiums be if a person is going to use auto FSD driving? A couple of accidents and insurance companies will drop coverage across the country or charge premium rates for Teslas.
That's why Tesla needs a hundred lawyers.
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Agreed on both points. I was at a four-way stop a couple of days ago. I waived the other guy through first. He had the right away since he was on my right. (We both hit the intersection at the same time.) But he was just sitting there waiting for me. How does Tesla do that? Does everyone just sit there like dummies waiting for the other guy to go first? Maybe Teslas can be furnished with a fake hand that pops up to waive the other guy through.
That's a good example. Tesla FSD will slowly proceed if it doesn't detect any movement at the intersection (moot point now since FSD has disabled the rolling stop feature). I'm not sure if its decision will be different if it detects stationary objects there. OTOH, if one of the objects starts moving, FSD would be much quicker to detect that movement than a human.
As to the testing software, how much do you know about it?
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That's a good example. Tesla FSD will slowly proceed if it doesn't detect any movement at the intersection (moot point now since FSD has disabled the rolling stop feature). I'm not sure if its decision will be different if it detects stationary objects there. OTOH, if one of the objects starts moving, FSD would be much quicker to detect that movement than a human.
As to the testing software, how much do you know about it?
That removes defensive driving from many of the things we do. When I get to an intersection with a four-way stop, I check the eyes of the other driver so I know he sees me before I pull out in front of him. With FSD, that won't happen.
I don't have to know how the software is written. The question is how will Tesla handle this situation? Will the software drive safely, legally, and effectively? The responsibility is on them.
Could you describe what the Tesla will do at a four-way stop?
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That removes defensive driving from many of the things we do. When I get to an intersection with a four-way stop, I check the eyes of the other driver so I know he sees me before I pull out in front of him. With FSD, that won't happen.
I don't have to know how the software is written. The question is how will Tesla handle this situation? Will the software drive safely, legally, and effectively? The responsibility is on them.
Could you describe what the Tesla will do at a four-way stop?
As mentioned above, Tesla already disabled the rolling stop and complied with NHTSA request to perform full stop. The FSD monitors who stopped first and proceeds when is its turn. If the other dummy starts before it's his turn, FSD will put up with such a foolish action, stop and wait until the dummy leaves the intersection.
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As mentioned above, Tesla already disabled the rolling stop and complied with NHTSA request to perform full stop. The FSD monitors who stopped first and proceeds when is its turn. If the other dummy starts before it's his turn, FSD will put up with such a foolish action, stop and wait until the dummy leaves the intersection.
I have a feeling that a rolling stop (what we called a Hollywood stops when I was a kid.) was the reason the Tesla went through a crosswalk on the FSD video I saw on Youtube even though there were two people standing to cross on the sidewalk. If the 100 lawyers OKed the rolling stop at a four-way stop, why wouldn't they approve a rolling stop at a crosswalk? Here's what an engineer said about the whole thing. MAybe that's the reason the Tesla failed to stop at my crosswalk.
"Philip Koopman, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at Carnegie Mellon University, said 4-way stop signs are commonly placed to protect intersections for children when no crossing guard is present. He said Tesla’s “machine learning” system can easily mistakenly identify objects. “What happens when FSD decides a child crossing the street is not ‘relevant’ and fails to stop?” he asked. “This is an unsafe behavior and should never have been put in vehicles. Koopman said traveling through a stop sign at 5.6 mph is akin to treating it as a yield sign."
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2022/02/01/tesla-recall-full-self-driving-software-runs-stop-signs/
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Here's a new FSD video posted Feb 4 2022 after rolling stops were ended. I only watched for a few minutes. and shut it off before I got into an accident. If this is an example of where Tesla is, they have a long way to go.
The navigation system as well as the FSD driving system is messed up. First it navigated wrong. Then it made a hard stop at a stop sign. Then it hesitated at making a left turn onto the main road. Then it made another left but into the wrong lane. Then it made a right ignoring the stop sign completely at 2:40. At 3:16 he made another turn that started to go into the wrong lane again. At 3:28 it made a right turn straight into a short barrier. An accident. That's when I stopped.
What's interesting is that the driver constantly puts his hand on the steering wheel as if he doesn't;t trust it. I don't blame him. I'd do the same. what's the point of a system that you can't trust and have to watch all the time? You might as well drive and be relaxed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbSDsbDQjSU
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In 3 1/2 minutes, Tesla violated three driving rules and got into one accident. (That's in clear weather, blue skies, no clouds, no snow or rain on the ground.) I don't know what happens for the rest of the 6 minutes left in the video.
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OK, I couldn't resist watching more. At 4:45 the Tesla decided it was a choo choo train and started to drive on the railroad tracks. At 5:08 it started to drive in a restricted zone before making a right. At 6:35 it tried to become a train again and drive on railroad tracks. At 7:50 it tried to hit the pylons again. (Apparently, it doesn't recognize short pylons as a barrier). Then it thought it was supposed to park but wasn't. There were a few other inconsistencies. How will it determine anything if it snows and traffic lines and railroad tracks are covered up?
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Here's a new FSD video posted Feb 4 2022 after rolling stops were ended. I only watched for a few minutes. and shut it off before I got into an accident. If this is an example of where Tesla is, they have a long way to go.
The navigation system as well as the FSD driving system is messed up. First it navigated wrong. Then it made a hard stop at a stop sign. Then it hesitated at making a left turn onto the main road. Then it made another left but into the wrong lane. Then it made a right ignoring the stop sign completely at 2:40. At 3:16 he made another turn that started to go into the wrong lane again. At 3:28 it made a right turn straight into a short barrier. An accident. That's when I stopped.
What's interesting is that the driver constantly puts his hand on the steering wheel as if he doesn't;t trust it. I don't blame him. I'd do the same. what's the point of a system that you can't trust and have to watch all the time? You might as well drive and be relaxed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbSDsbDQjSU
I just returned home from running an errand in an ICE vehicle without FSD. I didn't see any Teslas today, but plenty of incompetent and deranged drivers in cars without FSD.
Firstly, the FSD Beta is still in training phase. It hasn't been officially released yet. How many times do I have to repeat it?
Secondly, at this time the drivers have to keep their hands on the steering wheel in order to take over if FSD Beta misbehaves. It's a Tesla requirement at this time.
Thirdly, more than 38,000 people die every year in crashes in ICE vehicles on US roads. That's 104 deaths per day or 12.4 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants. An additional 4.4 million are injured seriously enough per year to require medical attention. Many of these deaths and injuries could have been avoided even with the current FSD Beta version.
Fourthly, even if I had FSD I wouldn't use it all time, in all situations. FSD is almost perfect on highways (even the Beta version), one guy drove from LA to SF without any interventions. Still problematic in tricky situations, but getting better with each new Beta release.
In summary, by the time you and me will be ready to buy Tesla, Tesla will have a well behaved FSD. Much better and safer than an average driver.
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I just returned home from running an errand in an ICE vehicle without FSD. I didn't see any Teslas today, but plenty of incompetent and deranged drivers in cars without FSD.
Firstly, the FSD Beta is still in training phase. It hasn't been officially released yet. How many times do I have to repeat it?
Secondly, at this time the drivers have to keep their hands on the steering wheel in order to take over if FSD Beta misbehaves. It's a Tesla requirement at this time.
Thirdly, more than 38,000 people die every year in crashes in ICE vehicles on US roads. That's 104 deaths per day or 12.4 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants. An additional 4.4 million are injured seriously enough per year to require medical attention. Many of these deaths and injuries could have been avoided even with the current FSD Beta version.
Fourthly, even if I had FSD I wouldn't use it all time, in all situations. FSD is almost perfect on highways (even the Beta version), one guy drove from LA to SF without any interventions. Still problematic in tricky situations, but getting better with each new Beta release.
In summary, by the time you and me will be ready to buy Tesla, Tesla will have a well behaved FSD. Much better and safer than an average driver.
First off, I hope you're right and Tesla makes a fortune from FSD and makes driving safer. As an American company, I want it to do well. I assume Canada and Mexico supply products and services to Tesla as well. So the company is a plus for North America. The better it does, the better for all of us.
I realize it's still in the training phase. But I was shocked at how many driving errors and one accident I saw in this latest video with less than ten minutes of driving time. There's no way the software can drive a car safely in a city. Maybe on a highway. Anyone looking at the video I posted would express their concern as well.
I don't believe that this software would have avoided those deaths. From what I saw in the demonstration video, there would have been a lot more accidents. I think you're getting ahead of yourself because you want it to succeed. So do I. But you have to be realistic. They're not close yet.
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Just a follow-up question regarding legal questions re [autonomous cars] or even [partial automated] control in case there are people reading here who might know about these things. . . . So when something goes wrong, and something will go wrong, what is the legal framework? Who's to blame? Who gets sued?
Here in the States, regulatory authority for traffic safety is shared between the federal and state governments. With respect to tort liability, which is a state issue, in general the usual rules are likely to prevail: a plaintiff that seeks to recover damages will need to prove that the defendant was negligent. Precisely what that means with respect to autonomous vehicles may be governed by statutes enacted in the respective states; in the absence of statutory standards, the state courts typically will employ common-law rules to determine which party prevails. (The United States is a common law jurisdiction.)
Many companies and independent research institutions are working on autonomous driving technology. All of them will no doubt be involved in the development of regulations for autonomous vehicles, as will the federal Department of Transportation and its counterparts in the states. My guess is that the regulatory process will evolve more-or-less synchronously with the technology.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration offers a detailed, non-technical discussion of some of the issues (https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety) on its website.
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Here in the States, regulatory authority for traffic safety is shared between the federal and state governments. With respect to tort liability, which is a state issue, in general the usual rules are likely to prevail: a plaintiff that seeks to recover damages will need to prove that the defendant was negligent. Precisely what that means with respect to autonomous vehicles may be governed by statutes enacted in the respective states; in the absence of statutory standards, the state courts typically will employ common-law rules to determine which party prevails. (The United States is a common law jurisdiction.)
Many companies and independent research institutions are working on autonomous driving technology. All of them will no doubt be involved in the development of regulations for autonomous vehicles, as will the federal Department of Transportation and its counterparts in the states. My guess is that the regulatory process will evolve more-or-less synchronously with the technology.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration offers a detailed, non-technical discussion of some of the issues (https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety) on its website.
Good points Chris. I have a question. Wouldn't the regulatory process be different than the legal situation? In other words, the National Safety board may have regulations, but I can see where the liability issue is handled differently among the 50 states. That could leave drivers in the lurch when driving interstate.
I can see Congress stepping in and having standards for insurance and liability across the board. Otherwise, as you drive from state to state, insurance that covers you in your home state, might not do so in another. What do you think?
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I realize it's still in the training phase. But I was shocked at how many driving errors and one accident I saw in this latest video with less than ten minutes of driving time. There's no way the software can drive a car safely in a city. Maybe on a highway. Anyone looking at the video I posted would express their concern as well.
I watched a number of FSD videos. Some individuals want to show how bad it is, and they can certainly find ways to prove it. Others, more experienced Beta test drivers know what to expect from FSD and they behave accordingly and anticipate certain problems (or are ready to take over).
Alan, autonomous driving is one of the most challenging projects of all times. Much more difficult than building pyramids, or playing chess and conducting a shallow conversation with a computer. This has never been done before. But then, Elon Musk has embarked on many projects that have never been done. Without him, NASA would be still flying cosmonauts to ISS using Russian rockets and their new Moon project will be still on the shelf. If you look at some FSD Beta from a year or two ago, you would agree that the latest version is much better. And it is getting better every two weeks. Elon says that FSD should be ready and quite competent by end of this year. Let's give him some slack and count on second half of 2023. Still a tremendous progress. By 2024, many people will sell their cars and start using Robotaxis.
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I have no problem giving him all the time he needs. I also have no doubt how difficult it must be. I've expressed the difficulties that I could see previous in my examples of kids playing ball on the sidewalk and other things we don't think about while driving. But the software and hardware will have to. There are so many small cues that go on between drivers and between drivers and pedestrians, and other cues on human behavior that is difficult to identify, see, and act upon in a human and safe way. The cameras aren't detailed enough as well. So there are hardware as well as software limitations.
The video I saw did things that the driver had no input on. Left turns into oncoming traffic lanes, turning onto railroad tracks, not seeing bollards in the road and driving into them, driving through stoplights, etc. At this late stage, how could the program be doing that? On top of that, the streets were clear. There was no snow-hiding lane lines. What happens when it snows or rains. How will the program ever know where it's going? The FSD was driven in sunny and clear San Jose in Silicon Valley by what sounded like tech nerds. They seem to be real supporters of Tesla yet were frankly disappointed in the drive. Well, there was an accident. Anyway. I think Musk will try to get this released before it's ready to move the stock up in value so he can sell some more of it and get more low-price stock from his arrangement when it went public. If he has to shut down FSD afterwards, it won't matter because he made his money.
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I think Musk will try to get this released before it's ready to move the stock up in value so he can sell some more of it and get more low-price stock from his arrangement when it went public. If he has to shut down FSD afterwards, it won't matter because he made his money.
In my view, accusing Elon Musk of Pump And Dump the Tesla stock is flawed thinking, he doesn't have to do that. And I don't have to try to convince you, so I exit with wishing you a pleasant evening.
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In my view, accusing Elon Musk of Pump And Dump the Tesla stock is flawed thinking, he doesn't have to do that. And I don't have to try to convince you, so I exit with wishing you a pleasant evening.
A couple of quarters ago, he sold some of Bitcoins owned by Tesla that took the company's earnings over a certain amount that allowed him to personally buy additional Tesla stock at a tiny fraction of its current stock value at the time. He made tens of billions. So he's not embarrassed to work the corporation to personal ends. When asked about why he sold only part of Tesla's Bitcoin holdings, he said that he was curious to see what that would do the the price of Bitcoins in the market. Sure. Of course, the investment community bought what he claimed and ignored his personal windfall. They never reported the link. That's why I made the statement about FSD.
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Biden finally said the word "Tesla".
President Joe Biden mentioned Tesla Inc. on Tuesday in a White House speech, after recent complaints by the electric-vehicle brand’s chief executive that his administration snubbed the EV maker.
Speaking alongside Tritium DCFC Ltd. DCFC, +39.47% CEO Jane Hunter about the Australian company’s plan to build a plant in Tennessee, Biden only briefly discussed Tesla TSLA, +1.62% while talking about other companies, such as General Motors Co. GM, -2.46% and Ford Motor Co. F, -0.95%, who are building out electric-vehicle production. Biden called Tesla “our nation’s largest electric vehicle manufacturer.”
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/3e473082-792e-3815-9319-d65d6dbbf769/biden-mentions-tesla-after.html
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Biden finally said the word "Tesla".
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/3e473082-792e-3815-9319-d65d6dbbf769/biden-mentions-tesla-after.html
Well, that's some progress. Maybe he can take one out for a test drive. :)
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Sandy Munro from Munro & Associates just published his impressions from the Cyber Rodeo in the new Tesla factory in Austin. Amazing never seen before video clips of the Tesla Model Y car design and the highly automated plant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLmIBO5Apz0&t=11s
The full coverage of the event, including more footage from the factory and an awesome drone light shows is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiwUE_2JhvY
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Amazing stuff. Come for the robots, stay for the drones.
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Interesting discussion on Freakonomics podcast about EVs https://freakonomics.com/podcast/in-the-1890s-the-best-selling-car-was-electric/ (https://freakonomics.com/podcast/in-the-1890s-the-best-selling-car-was-electric/).
The newish podcast "What's your problem" has a good discussion about programming self-driving cars https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/teaching-cars-to-think-like-people/ (https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/teaching-cars-to-think-like-people/)
and also a good discussion about widespread drone use https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/launching-drone-delivery/ (https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/launching-drone-delivery/).
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The . . . podcast "What's your problem" has a good discussion about programming self-driving cars. . . .
Apparently this includes a subroutine on what-to-do-when-a-cop-pulls-you-over (https://youtu.be/9w66NvmrlJ0).
The San Francisco police officers in the video link above appeared to be understandably confused when they stopped a General Motors autonomous vehicle, and discovered that nobody—neither a driver nor a passenger—was in the car.
The police department subsequently contacted the car service using the vehicle, and reportedly accepted the company's explanation (https://twitter.com/Cruise/status/1513181598140796936) that the car did the right thing by pulling away while the puzzled officers were trying to figure out what was going on.
Chiming in with more details: our AV yielded to the police vehicle, then pulled over to the nearest safe location for the traffic stop, as intended. An officer contacted Cruise personnel and no citation was issued.
I haven't been able to determine from the press coverage what infraction the vehicle may have committed. Maybe just not having anybody in the driver's seat?
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Apparently this includes a subroutine on what-to-do-when-a-cop-pulls-you-over (https://youtu.be/9w66NvmrlJ0).
The San Francisco police officers in the video link above appeared to be understandably confused when they stopped a General Motors autonomous vehicle, and discovered that nobody—neither a driver nor a passenger—was in the car.
The police department subsequently contacted the car service using the vehicle, and reportedly accepted the company's explanation (https://twitter.com/Cruise/status/1513181598140796936) that the car did the right thing by pulling away while the puzzled officers were trying to figure out what was going on.
I haven't been able to determine from the press coverage what infraction the vehicle may have committed. Maybe just not having anybody in the driver's seat?
At least they didn't shoot it. :)
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Kevin Paffrath, a well known financial youtuber was interviewed this weekend on Yahoo Finance and he predicted that Tesla will build several more gigafactories in the near future. He puts his money where his mouth is. Added 2 more millions in Tesla stock.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-bull-predicts-between-5-10-new-gigafactories-in-the-next-two-years-140626339.html
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Speaking about inflation:
GM recently announced a price hike for all new reservations for its already expensive GMC Hummer EV pickup truck (which is more of a novelty than a practical work truck). Prices will see an increase of $6,250. The 3X trim level has a starting MSRP of $99,995, but the base price for new reservations placed after Jun 18 will be raised to $106,245.
Rivian increased their truck prices by $10,000 and Tesla raised the price of Model X by $6,000 to $120,990.
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I came across this TEDx talk about EVs, hyrbids, etc. The talk is 2 years old but it was new to me, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk). He basically points out that EVs are no panacea, but no one should have expected them to be.
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CATL, a Shenzen based battery manufacturer just announced a new car battery with a range of 1,000km.
That would allow a drive from Toronto to Florida with just one re-charge stop. In the winter, maybe with two or three stops.
(Bloomberg) -- Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd. unveiled an electric-car battery it said has a range of over 1,000 kilometers (620 miles) on a single charge and is 13% more powerful than one planned by Tesla Inc., a major customer.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/catl-unveils-ev-battery-one-093935625.html
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CATL, a Shenzen based battery manufacturer just announced a new car battery with a range of 1,000km.
That would allow a drive from Toronto to Florida with just one re-charge stop. In the winter, maybe with two or three stops.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/catl-unveils-ev-battery-one-093935625.html
On p. 21 of this issue of the Canadian Mining Journal (https://www.canadianminingjournal.com/digital-edition/june-july-2022/ (https://www.canadianminingjournal.com/digital-edition/june-july-2022/)), there is an article about the possible use of vanadium instead of lithium in future re-chargeable batteries. Vanadium-based batteries have some advantages re longer life and re-charge cycles, but they have the disadvantage of being much larger so they are not currently ideal for transportation system. They may already be viable for stationary back-up/storage systems.
I am confident that the technology will continue to improve.
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CATL, a Shenzen based battery manufacturer just announced a new car battery with a range of 1,000km.
That would allow a drive from Toronto to Florida with just one re-charge stop. In the winter, maybe with two or three stops.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/catl-unveils-ev-battery-one-093935625.html
That design would be great for flashlights, cameras, and other battery-driven devices as well. As far as cars, unless the range is increased, as this battery apparently does, EVs are limited to only a segment of drivers.
The only problem is battery cost. While an owner saves money in gas expenses, the high cost of the battery initially dampens those savings. Currently, you're paying more upfront to save on gas later on. Most people do not include the additional upfront costs in their gas savings calculations.
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Tesla accelerates.
June production numbers were the highest in their history and a hacker who removed the software speed restrictor on his Tesla S Plaid clocked 216mph/348kmh.
The Tesla Model S Plaid is advertised as having a top speed of 200mph (321km/h), however the top speed is currently software locked and limited to 175mph (281km/h) when in Track Mode. No one knows when Tesla will unlock the top speed.
Not content to wait around and find out, the team at the Quebec-based tuner Ingenext has worked their magic and blown Tesla’s top speed out of the water. At a recent high speed run at the Aéroport de Trois-Rivières, their modified Model S Plaid hit a top speed of 217mph (350km/h).
If those speeds weren’t impressive enough, video from the event shows the Plaid reached over 300km/h in about 16 seconds.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-s/modified-tesla-model-s-plaid-hits-217mph-350km-h-video/
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... EVs are limited to only a segment of drivers.
Yes. Those who live and drive mostly in urban or suburban areas. In other words, nearly everyone.
The only problem is battery cost. While an owner saves money in gas expenses, the high cost of the battery initially dampens those savings. Currently, you're paying more upfront to save on gas later on. Most people do not include the additional upfront costs in their gas savings calculations.
I recently priced a Hyundai Ioniq 5 (one of the first practical EVs out of the gate, excluding Tesla) Its cost was not much different from any other moderately luxurious ICE car and much less than a typical pickup. Its fuel costs will be about 10% of any ICE alternative.
My (12 yrs) daily driver has now consumed more dollars in fuel than its original purchase price. And that's for a vehicle that has delivered 24 mpusg for those twelve years.
Think about that for a second.
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Think about that for a second.
An impossbility sadly.