Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 11:45:23 am

Title: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 11:45:23 am
Those of you who know both Hasselblad color and Fujifilm still-camera color, what can we expect? The GFX has more of what I need in a camera for the work I do, but the X1D is like a Jaguar XKE. I am probably getting the GFX (both cameras are on order), but my only worry is will I like the Fuji color or is it some variant that is an acquired taste? Any help would be appreciated, please.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: JKevinScott on January 20, 2017, 12:06:24 pm
I should have both in hand within two weeks (fingers crossed that the X1D doesn't get hung up in customs, and that the information I'm getting about my GFX is accurate) and was planning on posting some side-by-side comparisons shortly thereafter.  I'll post RAWs so that folks can form their own opinions based on how the files look after you've had a go at them with your favorite processing software.  I'll also post JPEGs.  Perhaps that will help, although I'll cross my fingers for you that your orders get filled before then.  :)

My guess is that you're going to have fairly similar color performance across the two cameras if you're processing RAWs, especially if you're doing color calibration.  The GFX with Fujifilm's pretty well-thought-through in-camera film simulation modes, is going to probably be better, or at least give you more choices around how colors are rendered, if what you're looking for are usable JPEGs right out of the camera.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: TimoK on January 20, 2017, 12:19:59 pm
Very pleasant color here at Petapixel (https://petapixel.com/2017/01/20/fujifilm-medium-format-gfx-50s-first-impressions/)
The author Adrian Murray is called Lightroom expert but I wonder also GFX makes good job in color.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 12:27:46 pm
Very pleasant color here at Petapixel (https://petapixel.com/2017/01/20/fujifilm-medium-format-gfx-50s-first-impressions/)
The author Adrian Murray is called Lightroom expert but I wonder also GFX makes good job in color.

Nice photos, but too saturated and dark for my taste. I am sure we will see many comparisons in the next weeks. I would like to see, side-by-side comparison of the X1D and the GFX.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: TimoK on January 20, 2017, 12:38:45 pm
Nice photos, but too saturated and dark for my taste. I am sure we will see many comparisons in the next weeks. I would like to see, side-by-side comparison of the X1D and the GFX.
I agree, too saturated but I see something beautiful in those. I also wait for real comparisons and tests.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Chris Barrett on January 20, 2017, 12:56:56 pm
I have an XT-1 and Fuji's digital imaging kinda reminds me of Velvia.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 01:15:13 pm
Helpful, but what I would most appreciateare the virtues and differences between Hasselblad color and Fuji still-camera color.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 20, 2017, 01:18:57 pm
Helpful, but what I would most appreciate is the virtues and differences between Hasselblad color and Fuji still-camera color.

Color depends on the profile used and Raw converter preferences. Both cameras can be made to look similar.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 01:28:34 pm
Color depends on the profile used and Raw converter preferences. Both cameras can be made to look similar.

Cheers,
Bart

They both have the same sensor as I understand it, but how has the sensor in each been tweaked. I am glad that they can be made to look the same, but what is the "same," or do you mean each can emulate to the other? I wantto  purchase one of these, and am leaning toward the GFX, but not if it has "inferior" color, however that word might apply to standard MF images.  I realize that I am asking the world, here, but some hints may be Enough. If they both are great, good. Would hate to purchase one and find that everyone feels the other has better color, etc.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 20, 2017, 02:41:49 pm
They both have the same sensor as I understand it, but how has the sensor in each been tweaked.

Basically, only the Bayer CFA could be a bit different, but they are usually quite similar in their transmission characteristics. The Out of Camera (OOC) color is a choice but with a manually made profile they can be made to look just like you prefer (within limits, because color based on just 3 channels is a huge problem to solve for human observers). A tool like DCAMprof, see here (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100015.msg954993#new), can assist in synchronizing between different cameras, or create a user preferred color response.

Quote
I am glad that they can be made to look the same, but what is the "same," or do you mean each can emulate to the other?

Yes, each other, or both the same, or both to a personal flavor.

Quote
I want purchase one of these, and am leaning toward the GFX, but not if it has "inferior" color, however that word might apply to standard MF images.  I realize that I am asking the world, here, but some hints may be Enough. If they both are great, good. Would hate to purchase one and find that everyone feels the other has better color, etc.

I expect the image quality of both to be good (after profiling), but do also look at supporting software options and lens options, and features that may be unique for a model. The articulating LCD is e.g. very useful for some of the macro work you do.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 03:29:14 pm
Alan Lesheim, a photographer with great experience, over on the Fotozones.com forum, in a similar discussion said:

“Fuji on the other hand make a point of saying that their colour is "film-like", which to me is a bit vague. What I notice about Fuji is that the colour to me looks very natural in spectrum balance, but perhaps slightly more vivid than I perceive colour myself (that could just be my age). It'll be interesting to see files from both cameras side-by-side, my guess is that the Hasselblad will have a slightly more "European" softer look to the colour, and the Fuji will have a slightly more vivid rendition. As far as my X-Trans colour goes, I often find myself slightly backing off the saturation overall, something I think will be neutral or maybe even the opposite with Hasselblad, probably having to tickle the saturation upwards on occasion.”

Personally I don’t care for HDR or any of its relatives, so I hope he is not suggesting the Fugi will be garish with colors. If they can be walked back to the “European” style, good. This is what I have to figure out. I will no doubt get the X1D first and have to keep it or send it back, and the GFX second, so chances are I won’t have both at the same time. So, please, anyone who finds a direct comparison, do let me know.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 20, 2017, 04:08:57 pm
Color has always been IMHO the strongest area of Fuji digital offerings, that and lenses look.

Hassy has been focsing on color a lot also, my bet would be that it will be a matter of preference.

If you use LR you may not see that much difference at all.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 04:20:08 pm
Color has always been IMHO the strongest area of Fuji digital offerings, that and lenses look.

Hassy has been focsing on color a lot also, my bet would be that it will be a matter of preference.

If you use LR you may not see that much difference at all.

Cheers,
Bernard

I use Photoshop and ACR. Am realizing that I need what the GFX offers, like a remote cable connection, the Retina-grade LiveView, which is all I use anymore, the future opportunity to use LF lenses on the GFX, the tiltable rear screen, etc. I appreciate the more svelte look and feel of the X1D, but aside for travel, I don't need it. 
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 20, 2017, 05:13:34 pm
Personnally I find the Fuji the superior option.

The support of HC lenses fixed the only concern I had with it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 20, 2017, 06:02:32 pm
Personnally I find the Fuji the superior option.

The support of HC lenses fixed the only concern I had with it.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, my concern, as mentioned is color between the two cameras. Any thoughts on that please?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: DanielStone on January 20, 2017, 10:25:58 pm
Just be patient, wait for both camera systems to become available so you can either rent or try them out yourself. Besides, I'm sure there will be some bugs in the system, let them get ironed out and proceed once you're settled and have compared the two systems yourself...

Seriously folks, is waiting a couple months(or more, if Hasselblad can't get their sh** together) THAT bloody hard?

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 20, 2017, 10:39:43 pm
Well, my concern, as mentioned is color between the two cameras. Any thoughts on that please?
Exactly. There is good colour and there is correct colour. Correct colour is the only acceptable result if doing art reproduction, product and fashion. Here Hasselblad excels with Phocus.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2017, 05:44:56 am
Hi,

It is not that simple, correct colour is not the same as pleasant colour.

That said, Hasselblad's Phocus is known to yield very good colour.

If we use Fuji with say Lightroom, the camera profile would be decided by Adobe and Adobe's recent profiles may not be everyone's liking. Fuji could of course ship a good DCP profile with it's cameras, or even have DNG as file format and embed a camera specific DCP profile.

Best regards
Erik

Exactly. There is good colour and there is correct colour. Correct colour is the only acceptable result if doing art reproduction, product and fashion. Here Hasselblad excels with Phocus.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 06:26:40 am
For me, the handling of color is more important than most of the rest of the physical differences between the X1D and the GFX, this early out. Although he is now an ambassador for Hasselblad, that is relatively recent, and I have followed Ming Thein for years. He has always been clear and unflinching in his reviews and comments, so I trust him as much as any online-authority I am aware of. Ming Thein is critical of all equipment, so if he uses Hasselblad, it is because he likes what it does. When I asked him on his blog about the Hasselblad vs. the Fuji approach to color, here is what he said.

MT: “Color: most of the world likes saturation to the nines; I can’t stand it because it makes processing very difficult, and getting accurate color for product work near-impossible. Hasselblad color is natural/accurate as opposed to pleasing: the cameras require the least profiling I’ve experienced, and they’re near-identical in color profile across the entire range (CCD included). You can saturate a Hasselblad file easily and control the peaks/rolloffs, but you can’t desaturate a ‘consumer’ file without it looking odd – the channels may well have clipped.”

ME: I then asked Ming Thein something to the effect that since you are also familiar with the Fuji color approach, do you feel that the GFX color will be as manageable as Hasselblad?

MT: “If they [Fuji] stick to the same color profile as their other cameras, honestly, no: the blues always run cyan, and the shadows block up quickly to extend highlights. This may be different on the GFX sensor, but I don’t think it’s going to solve the cyan shift since that seems to be part of the family ‘look’.”

What he says adds up to the other feedback I am getting from experts like Alan Lesheim, that there are “family” differences between the two companies approach to color. Which color-family we choose is up to our preference. I, for one, don’t care for HDR or any trace of that style, so that leans me toward working with the X1D rather than the GFX, unless (and until) I see physical proof in photos to the contrary. If the GFX leans toward “vivid,” then I won’t like that. My problem is that I cannot afford to have both cameras on-hand, and I have put in orders for each. I will get (now I’m guessing) the X1D first and have to keep it or return it before I get ahold of the GFX.

I hope these comments are helpful. Please don’t bother to disparage Ming Thein’s comments just because he is loosely associated with Hasselblad. With some folks, bias may be true, but I don’t believe it is true in Thein’s case. I read what he says. Either Fuji has blues which tend to run cyan, etc. or not. 
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Christopher on January 21, 2017, 07:09:30 am
It all sounds nice but why do you care as other stated you can profile both cameras dot hat YOU like them.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 21, 2017, 07:29:50 am
MT: “If they [Fuji] stick to the same color profile as their other cameras, honestly, no: the blues always run cyan, and the shadows block up quickly to extend highlights. This may be different on the GFX sensor, but I don’t think it’s going to solve the cyan shift since that seems to be part of the family ‘look’.”
...
I hope these comments are helpful. Please don’t bother to disparage Ming Thein’s comments just because he is loosely associated with Hasselblad. With some folks, bias may be true, but I don’t believe it is true in Thein’s case. I read what he says. Either Fuji has blues which tend to run cyan, etc. or not.

Hi Michael,

I think Ming Thein's observations are reasonable, but they do not take custom profiles into account. Camera manufacturers do add a specific 'look' to the images, but it doesn't have to stop there.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 07:56:40 am
Hi Michael,

I think Ming Thein's observations are reasonable, but they do not take custom profiles into account. Camera manufacturers do add a specific 'look' to the images, but it doesn't have to stop there.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,

What you are suggesting is that the more "vivid" style of Fuji, if it exists, can be entirely removed by a custom profile? And that, with a profile, I could back off the saturation (or whatever) and attain the less vivid Hasselblad style?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2017, 08:37:11 am
Hi,

Probably yes.

Keep in mind a raw file has no colour, it has normally four monochrome channels, these are either clipped or not. An image that contains clipped data is overexposed.

So, with a correctly exposed image we have four unclipped channels that are just numbers.

The colour is carried in the colour profile, at least as long as you use the Adobe processing pipeline. The profile contains the recipe for calculating colour. So, as long you work with raw files all the colour info is generated in the raw processor.

So talking about saturated or clipped colour in the raw file is pure nonsense. The colour profile can generate saturated colour channels.

A test I made illustrates this:
LightroomCapture One
P45+(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/20150107-CF046070_AdobeStandard_vsmall.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/20150107-CF046070_C1_vsmall.jpg)
Sony Alpha 99(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/20150107-_DSC6397_AdobeStandard_vsmall.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/20150107-_DSC6397_C1_vsmall.jpg)

The samples below are based on spectrometer readings of the petals:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/Violet_vsmall.jpg)

What I think the examples show in this case is my Phase One P45+ back renders similar to my Sony Alpha 99 when using Lightroom, but colours in Capture One are rendered differently.

Just to say, bluish purple is a difficult colour to render. In this case Adobe's pipeline handles it better than Capture Ones.

Best regards
Erik

Bart,

What you are suggesting is that the more "vivid" style of Fuji, if it exists, can be entirely removed by a custom profile? And that, with a profile, I could back off the saturation (or whatever) and attain the less vivid Hasselblad style?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 08:41:04 am
Hi,

Probably yes.

Keep in mind a raw file has no colour, it has normally four monochrome channels, these are either clipped or not. An image that contains clipped data is overexposed.

So, with a correctly exposed image we have four unclipped channels that are just numbers.

The colour is carried in the colour profile, at least as long as you use the Adobe processing pipeline. The profile contains the recipe for calculating colour. So, as long you work with raw files all the colour info is generated in the raw processor.

So talking about saturated or clipped colour in the raw file is pure nonsense. The colour profile can generate saturated colour channels.


OK, I understand. Given a carefully made profile I can ignore or not-use whatever penchant Fuji has for over-saturation and just do my own thing.

I always and only shoot raw, so that should good.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2017, 08:58:14 am
Yes,

That is true. But, there are differences between colour sensors that cannot be handled by profiles.

You can read this:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1234124/2&year=2013

But at that time most MFDs used Kodak CCD sensors, now they mostly use Sony CMOS sensors.

I started a long thread about Capture One and LR6 on GetDPI and a lot of knowledgeable persons chimed in:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/59120-capture-one-lr6.html

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

OK, I understand. Given a carefully made profile I can ignore or not-use whatever penchant Fuji has for over-saturation and just do my own thing.

I always and only shoot raw, so that should good.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:00:47 am
Yes,

That is true. But, there are differences between colour sensors that cannot be handled by profiles.


Is this true even through both the X1D and the GFX use the same sensor... and I am shooting raw?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2017, 09:07:29 am
Hi,

It could be that Hasselblad and Fuji use different CFA designs, with different spectral responses. That would still be possible to handle by profiles, mostly.

The example I posted, I shot both with P45+, that has a quiet extreme CFA design from Kodak and with the Sony Alpha 99 which has a typical Sony CFA. The processing in Lightroom was very close, while Capture One produced very different results. It is an example that profiles are more important than sensors and CFAs.

Best regards
Erik


Is this true even through both the X1D and the GFX use the same sensor... and I am shooting raw?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:12:37 am
Hi,

It could be that Hasselblad and Fuji use different CFA designs, with different spectral responses. That would still be possible to handle by profiles, mostly.

The example I posted, I shot both with P45+, that has a quiet extreme CFA design from Kodak and with the Sony Alpha 99 which has a typical Sony CFA. The processing in Lightroom was very close, while Capture One produced very different results. It is an example that profiles are more important than sensors and CFAs.

Best regards
Erik

I believe it. I received camera profiles for LR and ACR from Ming Thein as part of his Series III workflow, and the one for the D810 was very helful. He has used so many cameras that he has profiles for most of the ones that would ever interest me.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: hubell on January 21, 2017, 09:15:09 am
Color science and camera profiling are not, to put it mildly, my areas of expertise. However, two things occur to me. First, I would think it is very difficult to get the color you get out of the GFX to look exactly like the color from files from the X1D. In order to make them "the same", I would think you would have to use camera profiling software to profile the two cameras in the same raw converter and change the profiles of both of them to look the same. That's very different from making the Fuji file look exactly like the Hasselblad file. Moreover, what if the beautiful color of the Hasselblad files you want to emulate is from files processed in Phocus, not Lightroom?
Second, the "look" of a file from a Hasselblad file and any other file is not just about color. Isn't there a lot of secret sauce (e.g., the tone curve) that goes into tuning a CAmera profile beyond adjustments to the "color"  by using an X Rite color checker to create a profile? I am sure that when Phase One develops the base profiles for its digital backs in Capture One, they are doing a lot more than just breaking out an X Rite color checker. Same for Hasselblad with Phocus.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:55:24 am
I am not so worried about emulating the Hasselblad, but rather the knowledge that I can create a profile, even if only in ACR, that does what I want. I am scared by the suggestion that I might get a camera with too much saturation or "vividness," which is not what I like. I am looking for what we do in video, which is have a neutral or "log" profile to start out with. And since this conversation here extends, I guess I am still looking for sure signs that the neutral format I like can be attained.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 21, 2017, 10:02:34 am
Hi,

There is a lot of tuning options in colour profiles. The tone curve is the easy one.

In Adobe's DCP profiles there are "hue twists", see here: http://chromasoft.blogspot.se/2009/02/visualizing-dng-camera-profiles-part-3.html

Other raw converters would have similar tuning. They can be good or bad, it depends.

Hasselblad's Phocus is known to yield very good colour. So that is an advantage for Hasselblad if Phocus is what you want to use.

You are right that profiling will generate a good profile, but it will not have a lot of tuning.

But, it seems that having accurate profiles is going a long way.

Best regards
Erik


Color science and camera profiling are not, to put it mildly, my areas of expertise. However, two things occur to me. First, I would think it is very difficult to get the color you get out of the GFX to look exactly like the color from files from the X1D. In order to make them "the same", I would think you would have to use camera profiling software to profile the two cameras in the same raw converter and change the profiles of both of them to look the same. That's very different from making the Fuji file look exactly like the Hasselblad file. Moreover, what if the beautiful color of the Hasselblad files you want to emulate is from files processed in Phocus, not Lightroom?
Second, the "look" of a file from a Hasselblad file and any other file is not just about color. Isn't there a lot of secret sauce (e.g., the tone curve) that goes into tuning a CAmera profile beyond adjustments to the "color"  by using an X Rite color checker to create a profile? I am sure that when Phase One develops the base profiles for its digital backs in Capture One, they are doing a lot more than just breaking out an X Rite color checker. Same for Hasselblad with Phocus.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 21, 2017, 10:05:07 am
I hope they ship a neutral profile, much like the Camera Neutral for Nikon bodies. I like starting from a less saturated, less contrasty base to work towards a more specific look.

I have often found the Adobe Standard profile for my cameras to be too contrasty and to saturate color channels too easily, making editing a bit more difficult and colors less natural (especially for skin tones). So I really hope Fuji doesn't just limit themselves in shipping a bunch of film profiles along with the Adobe Standard.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 12:40:49 pm
More exchange with Ming Thein on his site:

MIchael: Since I only and always shoot raw, then with either camera I should be able to build a profile that allows me to get the “Hasselblad look” for the GFX. What am I missing in this approach?"

Ming Thein: "It depends very much on the sensor implementation used in the GFX: I have a lot of trouble making the X trans cameras look ‘neutral-flat’ like other Bayer cameras – there’s simply not enough shadow latitude left; the extended highlights are at the expense of the shadows. It should be possible…"

The discussion:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2017/01/21/cropping-sufficiency-resolution-take-three-or-thoughts-after-shooting-with-the-h6d-100c/#more-13953
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 21, 2017, 01:06:52 pm
Remember the GFX will not be x-trans.   Profiling should similar if not the same for any Bayer pattern sensor.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: douglevy on January 21, 2017, 01:35:21 pm
This may be true...and it may be a CCD vs. CMOS discussion, but I shoot D4/5/810 Credo. Recently my Credo 40 broke, and was replaced with a 60. In the window where I was without a back, I had to shoot a job to match a previous job shot with the Credo. Same lighting, same room, same raw converter - drastically different look. I'm certainly not an expert, but in trying to match using both C1 and LR, I just couldn't do it.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 21, 2017, 01:51:42 pm
This may be true...and it may be a CCD vs. CMOS discussion, but I shoot D4/5/810 Credo. Recently my Credo 40 broke, and was replaced with a 60. In the window where I was without a back, I had to shoot a job to match a previous job shot with the Credo. Same lighting, same room, same raw converter - drastically different look. I'm certainly not an expert, but in trying to match using both C1 and LR, I just couldn't do it.

Not long ago someone did a test on a back and a high resolution 35mm camera. While both images looked about the same, the digital back managed to better separate colors (greens from yellows, reds from oranges and so on) making color fine-tuning easier.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 01:58:33 pm
Remember the GFX will not be x-trans.   Profiling should similar if not the same for any Bayer pattern sensor.

Paul Caldwell

I hear you, but I don't know what that means. I am trying to pull together all the various feedback from this topic. Here is where I am folks.

Both the X1D and the GFX share the same sensor, HOWEVER each may (and probably does) put their own spin on it. How is that done if it is raw? I originally thought that if I shot raw, that I would be safe and could set my own profile and get exactly what I want. But now I understand that, even with raw, the companies can push it this way or that. What I don't want is to have it pushed to be anything but neutral, meaning: not unnaturally vivid.

Here are some raw images, etc. from the GFX. They look lovely, but it is clear that the intent here is to show a dramatic image. I would like to see some plain old images. Suggestions are welcome.


http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/fujifilm_gfx_50s_photos/
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 21, 2017, 02:03:30 pm
This may be true...and it may be a CCD vs. CMOS discussion, but I shoot D4/5/810 Credo. Recently my Credo 40 broke, and was replaced with a 60. In the window where I was without a back, I had to shoot a job to match a previous job shot with the Credo. Same lighting, same room, same raw converter - drastically different look. I'm certainly not an expert, but in trying to match using both C1 and LR, I just couldn't do it.

Hi Doug,

It will most likely not be 'easy', but it should be doable with the right tools. The 'DCamProf' tool by Anders Torger is probably the closest to a perfect tool for the job, but it's not simple to use if one attempts to get 100% identical looks. But with a lot of trial and error it is probably doable (we'll have to see the actual products first, shoot targets under identical lighting conditions, and tweak the settings of DCamProf).

But as Anders says, even with his coming GUI version, a manual for consultation is still needed.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 21, 2017, 02:09:16 pm
I hear you, but I don't know what that means. I am trying to pull together all the various feedback from this topic. Here is where I am folks.

Both the X1D and the GFX share the same sensor, HOWEVER each may (and probably does) put their own spin on it. How is that done if it is raw?

Assuming the supporting electronics will be similar, the only possibilities to make a change are by the strengyh of the IR filtration, and with a different Bayer CFA. Both will probably very similar, so the Raw data should be similar.

Quote
I originally thought that if I shot raw, that I would be safe and could set my own profile and get exactly what I want. But now I understand that, even with raw, the companies can push it this way or that. What I don't want is to have it pushed to be anything but neutral, meaning: not unnaturally vivid.

They do that (bake in a 'look') more likely than not with profiling, so it can also be changed by profiling.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: eronald on January 21, 2017, 02:19:01 pm
If Fuji has tweaked the CFA and the cover glass then the two cameras are different, fullstop. Of course there is still the matter of lens transmittivity. I can back that up with maths if you insist. If the chip isn't tuned then I fail to see why the raws would differ, as these chois have a digital output.
Edmund

Basically, only the Bayer CFA could be a bit different, but they are usually quite similar in their transmission characteristics. The Out of Camera (OOC) color is a choice but with a manually made profile they can be made to look just like you prefer (within limits, because color based on just 3 channels is a huge problem to solve for human observers). A tool like DCAMprof, see here (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100015.msg954993#new), can assist in synchronizing between different cameras, or create a user preferred color response.

Yes, each other, or both the same, or both to a personal flavor.

I expect the image quality of both to be good (after profiling), but do also look at supporting software options and lens options, and features that may be unique for a model. The articulating LCD is e.g. very useful for some of the macro work you do.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 21, 2017, 02:37:58 pm
If Fuji has tweaked the CFA then the two cameras are different, fullstop.

IF.

And IF they did, they will still be close. Whether they are different, remains to be seen. It would take two separate production lines which would drive up cost.

As Anders has demonstrated, a Sony image (if I remember well) can be made to look like a Hasselblad image and vice versa. Most formulations of modern Bayer CFAs are pretty close (also has to do with available materials).

So even if there were different, the profiles will more likely than not make it a non-issue.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 21, 2017, 02:48:52 pm
Just like the Phase One IQ250 profile works quite well on the Nikon D800 and D810.

Sometimes better than the standard P1 Nikon profile.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 21, 2017, 03:47:33 pm
Just like the Phase One IQ250 profile works quite well on the Nikon D800 and D810.

Sometimes better than the standard P1 Nikon profile.

Absolutely, and that's even before tweaking the profile, just by using one made for a different sensor.

I also tried a profile that one of the participants in the DCamProf thread made, compared it with one that Capture One provided, and the tweaked profile improved the image quality (not only the color was good, but also shadow-noise was better because Anders designed a bit more 'restraint' in the extreme luminance ranges).

Now that was with Capture One, and C1 won't support competing MF cameras, but DCamProf does support Lightroom/ACR DCP-profiles.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 07:26:26 pm
For me, the handling of color is more important than most of the rest of the physical differences between the X1D and the GFX, this early out. Although he is now an ambassador for Hasselblad, that is relatively recent, and I have followed Ming Thein for years. He has always been clear and unflinching in his reviews and comments, so I trust him as much as any online-authority I am aware of. Ming Thein is critical of all equipment, so if he uses Hasselblad, it is because he likes what it does. When I asked him on his blog about the Hasselblad vs. the Fuji approach to color, here is what he said.

MT: “Color: most of the world likes saturation to the nines; I can’t stand it because it makes processing very difficult, and getting accurate color for product work near-impossible. Hasselblad color is natural/accurate as opposed to pleasing: the cameras require the least profiling I’ve experienced, and they’re near-identical in color profile across the entire range (CCD included). You can saturate a Hasselblad file easily and control the peaks/rolloffs, but you can’t desaturate a ‘consumer’ file without it looking odd – the channels may well have clipped.”

ME: I then asked Ming Thein something to the effect that since you are also familiar with the Fuji color approach, do you feel that the GFX color will be as manageable as Hasselblad?

MT: “If they [Fuji] stick to the same color profile as their other cameras, honestly, no: the blues always run cyan, and the shadows block up quickly to extend highlights. This may be different on the GFX sensor, but I don’t think it’s going to solve the cyan shift since that seems to be part of the family ‘look’.”

What he says adds up to the other feedback I am getting from experts like Alan Lesheim, that there are “family” differences between the two companies approach to color. Which color-family we choose is up to our preference. I, for one, don’t care for HDR or any trace of that style, so that leans me toward working with the X1D rather than the GFX, unless (and until) I see physical proof in photos to the contrary. If the GFX leans toward “vivid,” then I won’t like that. My problem is that I cannot afford to have both cameras on-hand, and I have put in orders for each. I will get (now I’m guessing) the X1D first and have to keep it or return it before I get ahold of the GFX.

I hope these comments are helpful. Please don’t bother to disparage Ming Thein’s comments just because he is loosely associated with Hasselblad. With some folks, bias may be true, but I don’t believe it is true in Thein’s case. I read what he says. Either Fuji has blues which tend to run cyan, etc. or not.

I agree with you, Michael, that Ming is one of the finest reviewers I've read. He is very intelligent (as we all know), thinks more meaningfully about "photography"  than almost anyone I can think of, and his reviews are thorough and objective. Regardless, his comments at this point about how the GFX will render color compared to his experiences in the past with Fuji X-trans files is strictly supposition. Personally, I've found there to be more variability in color shifts due to the raw processor used than anything else. Iridient Developer, ACR/LR, and C1 all render colors somewhat differently, and Ming does not use Iridient or Capture One, only ACR. I've personally noted that Iridient renders blues less cyan than LR/ACR for example. As such, one cannot make infererences without Fuji color profiles without taking the raw processor into account because there is an interaction between the image processing engine, the RAW file and RAW processor. Also, I don't agree with his comments of Fuji blocking up to extend highlights; that certainly is not the case with the X-T2, and AFAIK, he has not shot with the X-T2 or any X-trans III camera yet. As much as I respect Ming, and I very much do, his comments have to moderated with they are based on past experience and not based on actual data from the GFX. As I gather more and more data from using my X-T2, the amount of dynamic range I am getting from it borders on the ridiculous, and the GFX is going to have even wider dynamic range.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 07:47:09 pm
Of course, this is an interesting thread, but while I am learning, I still am no the wiser as to whether I should be satisfied with the X1D, if only because I have seen enough Hasselblad images to know that the color is good. It looks like we all have to wait and see and can't make predictions based on earlier Fuji cameras. Unfortunately, since I have to take one camera or the other, probably with the X1D (maybe) coming along sooner than the GFX, I still don't know what is my best option. I can't afford to buy them both.

Over time, I have gradually relinquished the idea of the X1d  as what I want, although originally I saw it as being a relatively small system that I can carry in a smallish bag and still do first-class work. That was where I started. However, with all the confusion as to the X1D delivery and even the status of the mother company, it gives me pause.

The GFX does all of the things I want a small MF camera to do, with the exception that I can't count on the color of Fuji, if for some reason they prefer a more saturated or vivid color space, unless I can profile what I need into the camera.

But I am beginning to believe that perhaps the GFX can use different profiles that we come up with. Since I don['t know this technology, I appreciate the help of folks here in educating me. If Fuji delivers the GFX with a profile embedded, how do we change that to a profile of our own liking? Can we do such a thing or will some member at a forum like this, who has the know-how come up with one, and share it.

I still see the beauty in both cameras, but my history with cameras would prefer the GFX, for practical reasons, provided the color is pristine.

SO, I hope this thread marches on and we gradually work through the issues.

I can't speak to Ming Thein's experience with Fuji, but over years he has been an inspiration for me, especially working through all the permutations and lenses of the Nikon D810. And in personal exchanges, he has been exemplary and I know of NO blogger who tries harder to answer each question put to him.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ndevlin on January 21, 2017, 08:14:03 pm

"Colour" is not a reason to select or reject either of these cameras.  Both will give you the raw materials to produce virtually any result you are able to achieve in your chosen post-pro workflow.  The Hasselblad *may* need Phocus to extract the best from the file.  But even then I am skeptical if that makes much difference. 

The Fuji will almost certainly have better 'in-camera' colours if you shoot jpeg, and these may to some extent carry-over into post of raw files, depending on your workflow.  But again, nothing you can't do in post with just a good raw.

- N.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 08:20:05 pm
"Colour" is not a reason to select or reject either of these cameras.  Both will give you the raw materials to produce virtually any result you are able to achieve in your chosen post-pro workflow.  The Hasselblad *may* need Phocus to extract the best from the file.  But even then I am skeptical if that makes much difference. 

The Fuji will almost certainly have better 'in-camera' colours if you shoot jpeg, and these may to some extent carry-over into post of raw files, depending on your workflow.  But again, nothing you can't do in post with just a good raw.

- N.

Well, that is music to my ears. However, I shoot only raw, and not JPG. So, if I can work with raw using either camera, with perhaps the addition of a profile, that would be great. How do we install the profile in the camera. I imagine, easily, but I have never done it, except in post. Or, is post, when we do it?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 21, 2017, 08:28:42 pm
I can't speak to Ming T, as I don't read his blog, however from what has been posted on other sites, he is a Hasselblad ambassador,  privy to early releases of their products and thus I read his bias as pro Hasselblad. Period.  I don't blame him either.  But there are plenty of short comings to the X1D IMO that seem to have been overlooked by him. 

I personally don't find current Fuji color spaces provided by either LR or C1 to be over saturated.  Fuji provides a series of Film profiles, that can be applied in camera to jpgs, which are to represent their old classic films, like Provia, Chrome etc.  These can be applied in LR however they are Adobe attempts to obtaining the similar in camera effect done by Fuji. I don't use them.  I rely on the base color profile either in C1 or LR and then work from there and so far I have been pleased with the Fuji images, as have thousands of other photographers.  These base profiles work for my style of work.

As for the comments on the Fuji blocking highlights, et all, again, Fuji would have to go out of their way to do this.  The chip being used here is the same one that dates back to 2014 and Phase One IQ250, its not any different.  The range of that chip always has been impressive.   This  has been shown by the few photographers that have received X1D's and from the thousands of photographers that have owned or shot with a  IQ250, 150 or 350 and or the Hasselblad 50c.  All again share the same chip, and all have provided excellent results in overall dynamic range, wonderful highlight recovery and or shadow push with amazing color.

My only concern with the Fuji GFX was that Fuji would attempt to use X-Trans on it, and they did not.  In the long run I feel this will be a huge asset to the camera as the x-trans tech is not fully understood by most raw converters and thus they provide a less than stellar end result.  Exceptions to this would be C1, however C1 most likely will not support the GFX due to P1's continued blinder approach to other MF platforms. 

The color of both of these cameras will be excellent, mainly due to Phocus on the Hasselblad and LR, or Iridient provided profiles.  Don't count too much on Fuji's relationship with Silkypix for a useable profile.  I expect to see the Phocus profile to the X1D as closer to perfect based on Hasselblad's previous color production on their other products.  The Fuji color will possibly not be as perfect but for most it will be close enough and if exact color is needed then a custom color profile could be developed and used.  LR allows you to load a custom camera profile so should ACR and tools are out there to develop one. 

For me the decision is much more based on the technology delivery on the camera, as I prefer the pixel depth of both the EVF and LCD on the Fuji, the fact that Fuji found a way to deliver both EFC and ES on a sensor that no one else has been able to, the ability to tilt the LCD to allow for better control of low level work, macro work and perspective control, a remote port, and a focal plane shutter which allows for a lot more non Fuji lens support over time.

However if it's all about color and it being totally exact, I guess the X1D would still have to get the better vote in that regard. 

Hopefully also Fuji has a more informed product planning process and they will be able to start delivery of their product in the late Feb 2017 time frame.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 21, 2017, 08:32:55 pm
"Colour" is not a reason to select or reject either of these cameras.  Both will give you the raw materials to produce virtually any result you are able to achieve in your chosen post-pro workflow.  The Hasselblad *may* need Phocus to extract the best from the file.  But even then I am skeptical if that makes much difference. 
Have you actually used the Reproduction Mode in Phocus? It certainly beats anything I have seen. Not that the Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution was "off" anyway.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 08:36:44 pm
However if it's all about color and it being totally exact, I guess the X1D would still have to get the better vote in that regard. 

Paul Caldwell

I appreciate your detailed answer, and I followed along saying yes, yes, and yes... and then you get the the final line, which I quote above. My entire post here is about color, so that put me right back in the quandary again. What I need to hear is not that the X1D has the better color (it might since it is out and is Hasselblad's), but that we will be able to (someone among us or Fuji) come up with a profile that will equate the two cameras as far as color goes.

It sounds like we don't have that assertion at this point.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 21, 2017, 08:47:37 pm
Michael,

You are not concerned by the non apochromatic lenses of these 2 systems? ;)

Chances that the Otii on the D810 will still deliver the cleaner file in terms of lack of color aberrations. Of course we may be able to mount the Otii on the Fuji, which would probably be pretty amazing. I am glad to own the Nikon version with an aperture ring.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 08:53:34 pm

The GFX does all of the things I want a small MF camera to do, with the exception that I can't count on the color of Fuji, if for some reason they prefer a more saturated or vivid color space, unless I can profile what I need into the camera.

Michael, having shot with Fuji cameras extensively for over four years, personally, I find that the assumption that Fuji prefers a more saturated or vivid is not an accurate one. That may be the view of folks that tend to use the Velvia preset, but that is not my experience with Fuji RAW files at all. I find their RAW files to be very neutral, and their Auto White Balance is unerringly accurate.

I would say if there is any manufacturer you can count on the color from, it's Fuji.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 08:55:40 pm

I personally don't find current Fuji color spaces provided by either LR or C1 to be over saturated.  Fuji provides a series of Film profiles, that can be applied in camera to jpgs, which are to represent their old classic films, like Provia, Chrome etc.  These can be applied in LR however they are Adobe attempts to obtaining the similar in camera effect done by Fuji. I don't use them.  I rely on the base color profile either in C1 or LR and then work from there and so far I have been pleased with the Fuji images, as have thousands of other photographers.  These base profiles work for my style of work.

Paul Caldwell

Agreed.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 08:57:13 pm
I appreciate your detailed answer, and I followed along saying yes, yes, and yes... and then you get the the final line, which I quote above. My entire post here is about color, so that put me right back in the quandary again. What I need to hear is not that the X1D has the better color (it might since it is out and is Hasselblad's), but that we will be able to (someone among us or Fuji) come up with a profile that will equate the two cameras as far as color goes.

It sounds like we don't have that assertion at this point.

It's going to depend to a significant extent on the RAW convertor used.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:00:48 pm
Michael, having shot with Fuji cameras extensively for over four years, personally, I find that the assumption that Fuji prefers a more saturated or vivid is not an accurate one. That may be the view of folks that tend to use the Velvia preset, but that is not my experience with Fuji RAW files at all. I find their RAW files to be very neutral, and their Auto White Balance is unerringly accurate.

I would say if there is any manufacturer you can count on the color from, it's Fuji.

Thanks Stephen! That's what I need to hear.

And Bernard: Yes, it worries me that I won't have APO lenses on either camera, but I am hoping that all of the positive attributes produces something I will find useful. And I will use my Otus lenses (when an adapter shows up) on the GFX if I purchase that. Since I do close-up work, they all should do somethng of use. And I would like to get an adapter for the GFX for the Cambo Actus, as well.

I am not stopping using the D810, for which I have a lot of exotic lenses that I love. I just feel that small MF cameras are not just a fad, but are here to stay, big time.


Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:01:37 pm
It's going to depend to a significant extent on the RAW convertor used.

I use ACR at this point, but am open to do whatever has to be done to get a superior result.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 09:21:33 pm
I use ACR at this point, but am open to do whatever has to be done to get a superior result.

LR/ACR does a "workmanlike" job with Fuji X-trans files, but Iridient Developer is superior to LR/ACR on X-Trans files for resolving detail, noise reduction, as well as recovering shadows or pulling down highlights. For example, the Brightness Highlights, Highlights (Neighborhood Adaptive) and Extreme Highlight Recovery controls of Iridient quite simply blows ACR/LR into the weeds. The nice thing is that Iridient can be run as a plug-in within LR, and an "out and back" to do a RAF conversion only takes only about 30 seconds.

Capture One 10 is also really, really good. While Capture One probably decide not to support GFX RAF files, I've read that on Ivan Joshua Loh's blog that Fujifilm has written a "bridge software" that allows on to tether and open files in Capture One. One of the early videos showing aJapanese pro using a very early prototype show his tethering, capturing and files with Capture One. This is still a "rumor" but I am very confident that Fujifilm understand the importance of, and need by, pros to be able to use Capture One. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:24:53 pm
LR/ACR does a "workmanlike" job with Fuji X-trans files, but Iridient Developer is superior to LR/ACR on X-Trans files for resolving detail, noise reduction, as well as recovering shadows or pulling down highlights. For example, the Brightness Highlights, Highlights (Neighborhood Adaptive) and Extreme Highlight Recovery controls of Iridient quite simply blows ACR/LR into the weeds. The nice thing is that Iridient can be run as a plug-in within LR, and an "out and back" to do a RAF conversion only takes only about 30 seconds.

Does Iridient have a plug-in for Photoshop, which is what I use. I have LR too, but it is too slow for me.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 21, 2017, 09:34:18 pm
Does Iridient have a plug-in for Photoshop, which is what I use. I have LR too, but it is too slow for me.

I don't think so because PS opens ACR when you open a RAW file, but you can batch process images in Iridient and then export to Photoshop. Just as one might with Capture One.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 21, 2017, 09:39:46 pm
I don't think so because PS opens ACR when you open a RAW file, but you can batch process images in Iridient and then export to Photoshop. Just as one might with Capture One.

I am downloading Iridient as a demo now.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Manoli on January 21, 2017, 10:03:03 pm
...and C1 won't support competing MF cameras, but DCamProf does support Lightroom/ACR DCP-profiles.

At the risk of repeating something that may well have been pointed out before: Iridient also supports ACR/LR DCP profiles - Input Profiles are under the 'color' tab.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: eronald on January 21, 2017, 10:57:19 pm
At the risk of repeating something that may well have been pointed out before: Iridient also supports ACR/LR DCP profiles - Input Profiles are under the 'color' tab.

Repetition is essential in teaching - as the french say "Il faut bien caresser un cercle pour qu'il devienne vicieux".

Edmund
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 22, 2017, 01:36:46 am
Anyone that would like to download some full-size GFX JPEG or RAW images for viewing can download them here:

GXF Images for download (http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/fujifilm_gfx_50s_photos/)

You can open and save these as TIFFs by using the latest beta version of RawDigger:

RawDigger Beta GFX support (http://www.rawdigger.com/news/rawdigger-1-2-18-beta)

Here's a couple images I downloaded and converted to TIFF, imported to LR and exported as JPEG. Please do not make any assumptions about GFX image quality based on these. I needed to some color temperature correction, and did the best I could to find a neutral gray without a gray card or color checker, so they are likely not perfect with respect to color temperature.

Should give you at least a rough idea about color, though.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/generalfujixphotos/GFX%20Model%201_.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/generalfujixphotos/GFX%20Model%202_1.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/generalfujixphotos/GFX%20Dancers.jpg)

I will say looking at these as full-res TIFF files on a 5K Retina iMac is impressive.....
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 22, 2017, 01:46:03 am
My entire post here is about color, so that put me right back in the quandary again.
It sounds like we don't have that assertion at this point.
Once you have been here for a while you will realise that the subject has little to do with the discussion after the first page and turns into a points contest about something irrelevant and hypothetical.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 22, 2017, 01:47:55 am
Once you have been here for a while you will realise that the subject has little to do with the discussion after the first page and turns into a points contest about something irrelevant and hypothetical.

Sounds like every photography forum I've ever encountered...just comes with the territory unless the comments are moderated.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 22, 2017, 02:19:22 am
Here's a really fast, quick and dirty B&W conversion I did in Silver Efex Pro 2 with the Acros preset....

(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/generalfujixphotos/GFX%20Model2%20Acros.jpg)
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 22, 2017, 03:06:55 am
Here's a really fast, quick and dirty B&W conversion I did in Silver Efex Pro 2 with the Acros preset....
that will go at 30,000ft over most peoples' head.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2017, 04:15:32 am
At least regarding colours…

Best regards
Erik

that will go at 30,000ft over most peoples' head.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Chris Livsey on January 22, 2017, 04:34:46 am
Here's a really fast, quick and dirty B&W conversion I did in Silver Efex Pro 2 with the Acros preset....

Presumably ACROS shot on 10 x 8  ::)
Title: I played a little bit with GFX raw images… trying out different profiles
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2017, 05:17:19 am
Hi,

I have played a bit with GFX raw images. The problem is that there are no colour profiles to use with that camera.

I have extracted the X1D DCP profile from a DNG file exported by Phocus, it was a very simple matrix profile.

I also extracted a DCP profile from an IQ-250 image and an A7rII image using Lightroom export to DNG, these were complete DCP Profiles.

After that I imported the images in RawTherapee and applied each DCP profile and exported the files as 16 bits tiffs.

The tiffs were opened as layers in Photoshop and downsized to 1600 pixels wide.

(http://Bigfile warning:) The image can be downloaded here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/etcetera/GFX1-example_profiles.tif

Open the file in Photoshop and check the effect of different profiles.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: I played a little bit with GFX raw images… trying out different profiles
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 22, 2017, 05:36:20 am
Open the file in Photoshop and check the effect of different profiles.


Does anyone have profiles for Photoshop available? I have a set made by Ming Thein that includes a variety of cameras, including the D810, and they seem very good.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 22, 2017, 06:04:13 am
Checked out the raw files without any profile. It's hard to tell any major difference with pictures made with the X1D (the ones I can find anyway). Besides the profiles that will be shipped soon with ACR/LR, the lenses should have a much bigger effect on overall colors and scene rendition

This is what a couple of them look like converted to TIFF without any profile or correction.

(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/Andrea_Minganti/fujifilm_gfx_50s_12-RGB-2_zpsfkp6kgkb.jpg)

(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/Andrea_Minganti/fujifilm_gfx_50s_05-RGB-2_zpsbhsstbdv.jpg)

And this is me just having fun.

(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/Andrea_Minganti/fujifilm_gfx_50s_12-RGB_zpsbae6vp3h.jpg)

(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/Andrea_Minganti/fujifilm_gfx_50s_05-RGB_zpsze4vlu85.jpg)
Title: Re: I played a little bit with GFX raw images… trying out different profiles
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 22, 2017, 06:15:54 am
Hi Michael,

My image has three layers processed by different DCP profiles.

Best regards
Erik

Does anyone have profiles for Photoshop available? I have a set made by Ming Thein that includes a variety of cameras, including the D810, and they seem very good.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 23, 2017, 01:33:56 am
Hi,

I developed a few of the samples using RawTherapee using a dcp profile I extracted rom Hasselblad X1D and A7rII images exported as DNG.

The first image was using a DCP profile exported by Phocus, it is just ColourMatrix really:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/etcetera/GFXX1D.jpg)

The second one is a Sony A7rII DCP profile exported by Lightroom, a much more complex profile, with LUT-tables and all matrices:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/etcetera/GFXa7rII.jpg)

I also tested with a profile for the IQ250 and the P45+. There was very little difference. That was a great surprise.

For my taste, the skin tones are a bit pink, but it may depend on the white balance.

Best regards
Erik


Checked out the raw files without any profile. It's hard to tell any major difference with pictures made with the X1D (the ones I can find anyway). Besides the profiles that will be shipped soon with ACR/LR, the lenses should have a much bigger effect on overall colors and scene rendition

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: one iota on January 23, 2017, 02:06:07 am
Hi,

I developed a few of the samples using RawTherapee using a dcp profile I extracted rom Hasselblad X1D and A7rII images exported as DNG.

The first image was using a DCP profile exported by Phocus, it is just ColourMatrix really:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/etcetera/GFXX1D.jpg)

The second one is a Sony A7rII DCP profile exported by Lightroom, a much more complex profile, with LUT-tables and all matrices:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/etcetera/GFXa7rII.jpg)

I also tested with a profile for the IQ250 and the P45+. There was very little difference. That was a great surprise.

For my taste, the skin tones are a bit pink, but it may depend on the white balance.

Best regards
Erik

There is an obsession with colour (spelt correctly) that is irrelevant when viewed on my Toshiba laptop. So consider the audience and the medium. Preciousness is for the obsessive.

Please tell me how and on what I should view these images to appreciate them.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 23, 2017, 07:26:05 am
Hi,

I developed a few of the samples using RawTherapee using a dcp profile I extracted rom Hasselblad X1D and A7rII images exported as DNG.

Hi Erik,

Thanks for taking the time.

Quote
I also tested with a profile for the IQ250 and the P45+. There was very little difference. That was a great surprise.

Yes, it suggests that the Sensors+IR filter+CFA are more similar than they are different.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: eronald on January 23, 2017, 08:11:21 am
There is an obsession with colour (spelt correctly) that is irrelevant when viewed on my Toshiba laptop. So consider the audience and the medium. Preciousness is for the obsessive.

Please tell me how and on what I should view these images to appreciate them.

Interestingly, my iPad Pro allows me to pass the Xrite test with a perfect score; my laptop doesn't. Try it:

http://www.xrite.com/en/hue-test

Edmund
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 23, 2017, 09:24:39 am
There is an obsession with colour (spelt correctly) that is irrelevant when viewed on my Toshiba laptop. So consider the audience and the medium. Preciousness is for the obsessive.

Please tell me how and on what I should view these images to appreciate them.

A color-managed display, preferably a wide gamut one will help to display the colors as they were intended. Whether you'll appreciate them is a different subject (has to do with personal preferences and color vision). What the subject of the thread is about is the 'color look' of a brand's profiles, and if the 'look' is significant/relevant when we are able to adjust it with profiles.

BTW the etymology of the word colour, is that it comes from the Latin word colōr, then from the Anglo-French (French couleur) it turned into Middle English 'colour' in 1250-1300. So it's only spelled correctly when you are a Brit. And while we're at it, 'spelt' and 'spelled' are both correct in British English, although 'spelled (http://writingexplained.org/spelt-or-spelled-difference)' is increasingly more popular since the 1850's, even in British English since the 1970's . ;)

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: hubell on January 23, 2017, 09:46:28 am
"Colour" is not a reason to select or reject either of these cameras.  Both will give you the raw materials to produce virtually any result you are able to achieve in your chosen post-pro workflow.  The Hasselblad *may* need Phocus to extract the best from the file.  But even then I am skeptical if that makes much difference. 
- N.

I suppose in theory this is true. However, unless you are conversant with color profiling and are willing to learn how to use DCAM Pro (or something similar) to develop a custom profile for the GFX that meets your needs, I think the best approach here is to buy what works. Demo the GFX and shoot a bunch of files under your normal shooting conditions and process them in Lightroom or ACR with the available profiles and see how easy or difficult is is to achieve what you want. Then, do the same with the X1D in LR and Phocus. Buy what works now for you, not on the come as to what MAY be possible to achieve or on the basis of what someone tells you is "beautiful" color or skin tones. I am interested in both the X1D and the GFX, and that's how I am approaching it.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 23, 2017, 02:19:05 pm
As the OP, what Bart said is correct. I have to choose either the X1D or the GFX without being able to have both cameras side-by-side, which would mean paying for both of them, even for a time. I can't afford that. So, of course, with that kind of investment on the line, I would like to determine if the two cameras are roughly equivalent. Perhaps others will do this and I can learn from them.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: john beardsworth on January 23, 2017, 03:04:47 pm
As the OP, what Bart said is correct. I have to choose either the X1D or the GFX without being able to have both cameras side-by-side, which would mean paying for both of them, even for a time. I can't afford that. So, of course, with that kind of investment on the line, I would like to determine if the two cameras are roughly equivalent. Perhaps others will do this and I can learn from them.

They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 23, 2017, 03:24:30 pm
They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?

LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: hubell on January 23, 2017, 03:35:00 pm
As the OP, what Bart said is correct. I have to choose either the X1D or the GFX without being able to have both cameras side-by-side, which would mean paying for both of them, even for a time. I can't afford that. So, of course, with that kind of investment on the line, I would like to determine if the two cameras are roughly equivalent. Perhaps others will do this and I can learn from them.

I think you can do this exercise without having both cameras side by side at the same time. That would be ideal, but not necessary in my view to do the evaluation. My expectation is that the two cameras will NOT be roughly equivalent if you compare the files from the GFX in LR/ACR using the supplied profiles versus the files from the X1D in Phocus using the supplied profiles. Can YOU develop a LR profile for the GFX that gets you close to what you like? Can pay someone else to figure out what you like and develop an excellent LR profile for you that matches your aesthetic tastes? I don't know, but do you want to buy an expensive camera system based upon that supposition?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 23, 2017, 03:43:44 pm
I think you can do this exercise without having both cameras side by side at the same time. That would be ideal, but not necessary in my view to do the evaluation. My expectation is that the two cameras will NOT be roughly equivalent if you compare the files from the GFX in LR/ACR using the supplied profiles versus the files from the X1D in Phocus using the supplied profiles. Can YOU develop a LR profile for the GFX that gets you close to what you like? Can pay someone else to figure out what you like and develop an excellent LR profile for you that matches your aesthetic tastes? I don't know, but do you want to buy an expensive camera system based upon that supposition?

Obviously, the more I write, the less clear I become. It must be one of Murphy's Laws. I will make do. As it looks now, I should receive the X1D first (which I ordered last July). If I can stand to give it up, I will cancel my order for the GFX. Otherwise, I will return it and wait for the GFX. Between now and then, perhaps someone with more knowledge than me (and access to both cameras) will figure out whether the GFX and the proper profile can more-or-less emulate the Hasselblad "look." If it can, I will probably go for the GFX, because its capability is more what appeals to me. However, this is a part of me that wants a smaller, simpler system, that is a delight. So far, I am not delighted with what Hasselblad has offered me, which is delay and no satisfying explanation. I know that there are other approaches.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasse
Post by: eronald on January 23, 2017, 04:19:00 pm
They say patience is a virtue, you know. So why not be patient and rent them side-by-side?

I think Fuji and Hassy have both earned an excellent rep for very very good color when their native converters are employed; the same goes for Phase with C1. When ACR or Lightroom enter the equation, things tend to get turned into mush, however convenient the workflow - Adobe makes one-size-fits-all software.
Title: An observation…
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 23, 2017, 07:12:17 pm
Hi,

The pictures often presented as samples are often taken by some famous photographer, shooting a famous model with excessive makeup and complex illumination.

Those images doesn't make it easy to judge colour rendition. What you probably need is a well illuminated test subject with pretty standard studio light, a model without a lot of makeup and a colour checker or a grey card.

Light modifiers can easily change light a few hundred Kelvins, so you need that colour checker for white balance.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: An observation…
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 23, 2017, 07:21:06 pm
Hi,

The pictures often presented as samples are often taken by some famous photographer, shooting a famous model with excessive makeup and complex illumination.

Those images doesn't make it easy to judge colour rendition. What you probably need is a well illuminated test subject with pretty standard studio light, a model without a lot of makeup and a colour checker or a grey card.

Light modifiers can easily change light a few hundred Kelvins, so you need that colour checker for white balance.

Best regards
Erik

I wholeheartedly agree with Erik, but this is not our first rodeo, either. I have gone through this kind of bleeding-edge stage many, many times before. Therefore, I know that somehow we will get though this, gather enough data until we have what we feel we need, and make our decisions on purchase or not. And it is clear, this is not one simple conclusions, but many types of photographers, each with their list to be checked off.
Title: Re: An observation…
Post by: hubell on January 23, 2017, 09:15:13 pm
I wholeheartedly agree with Erik, but this is not our first rodeo, either. I have gone through this kind of bleeding-edge stage many, many times before. Therefore, I know that somehow we will get though this, gather enough data until we have what we feel we need, and make our decisions on purchase or not. And it is clear, this is not one simple conclusions, but many types of photographers, each with their list to be checked off.

Agreed, but it would certainly help developing some degree of confidence about the ability to develop a more natural rendition of color and tone with the GFX if Fuji did not market the camera with such garish imagery: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx_50s/pdf/index/gfx_catalogue_01.pdf
If that's what the camera was configured to produce, no thanks. that's not my idea of beautiful tone and color.
Title: Re: An observation…
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 23, 2017, 09:21:12 pm
Agreed, but it would certainly help developing some degree of confidence about the ability to develop a more natural rendition of color and tone with the GFX if Fuji did not market the camera with such garish imagery: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx_50s/pdf/index/gfx_catalogue_01.pdf
If that's what the camera was configured to produce, no thanks. that's not my idea of beautiful tone and color.

As we say around here: "Amen Brother!" My thoughts exactly, which is what prompted this post. Otherwise, I will just be happy with the X1D.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 23, 2017, 09:54:22 pm
Boy tough crowd. Images look fine to me. But I always liked he look of Provia and Cibachrome.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: calindustries on January 24, 2017, 08:12:59 am
LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.

You could try to arrange a demo from a dealer who sells both (Fotocare here in NYC).  When making a bigger purchase a lot of places may do that. In the least you could rent it (other places are built around shipping rentals lensrental.com etc.) I know places that do both sales and rental will let you apply part of your rental to purchase as well. I see where you are and as a native Yooper I can understand how you may feel isolated from the bigger markets, but it's not impossible these days.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: camgarner on January 24, 2017, 09:59:04 am
I agree with Paul - tough crowd!  I completely get the desire for such accuracy when doing commercial portrait and product photography.  As a photographer who does mostly landscapes and seascapes I don't require that level accuracy.  My experience shooting Canon and Leica, then Nikon and now Phase One, I always have to adjust the color to my liking.  Part of it is I tend to like slightly under-saturated colors and I am often going for a specific look.  I forgot who said it earlier but we all perceive color slightly differently.  I would guess some of that is biological and some of it based on our visual experience.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure either Fuji or Hasselblad with profiles will be fine.  I would be focusing my energy on other factors.  One mans opinion.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 24, 2017, 10:17:59 am
I agree with Paul - tough crowd!  I completely get the desire for such accuracy when doing commercial portrait and product photography.  As a photographer who does mostly landscapes and seascapes I don't require that level accuracy.  My experience shooting Canon and Leica, then Nikon and now Phase One, I always have to adjust the color to my liking.  Part of it is I tend to like slightly under-saturated colors and I am often going for a specific look.  I forgot who said it earlier but we all perceive color slightly differently.  I would guess some of that is biological and some of it based on our visual experience.  Speaking for myself, I'm sure either Fuji or Hasselblad with profiles will be fine.  I would be focusing my energy on other factors.  One mans opinion.

Better said than by me but I agree 100%  Phase One color out of the camera is most terrible unless I am shooting on bright day.  Tons of time go into getting the image where I want it, and I often shoot a reference with my X-T2 as color out of that camera is much more accurate.  Phase One WB is a mystery I have yet to figure out since 2008.  I had hoped that with the CMOS tech P1 would make it easier, but IMO it's just as tough as CCD. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: support for compressed Fujifilm GFX 50s raw files
Post by: Iliah on January 24, 2017, 11:40:29 am
http://www.fastrawviewer.com/blog/FastRawViewer-1-3-8-release-candidate - please use build 1042
http://www.rawdigger.com/news/rawdigger-1-2-18-beta - please use build 510

We would be most grateful for feedback. It is important to have the support tested before we release it in open source.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2017, 01:33:28 pm
Hi Paul,

I think that the WB in camera is a kind of secret sauce. I would imagine that camera makers invest a lot of R&D in that area. At least for some time, Nikon has encrypted that information in their files.

My experience is just with the P45+, but I have found auto WB extremely unreliable. But, I happened to set daylight as default for my P45+ in Lightroom and suddenly started to get good results. I would think the problem is that colour temperature is often a part of the light. If you shoot a sunset the light may be 2300 K, but you would probably have a pretty high Kelvin setting so the magic colours are retained. A good WB algorithm must recognise sunset and adjust WB accordingly.

Here is an interesting case, it is a P45+ shot, balanced on a grey card not shown in the image. The inset colours are samples take from the subject and measured with a spectrometer. Capture One on to and LR CC 2015 at bottom.
(http://www.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=120066&d=1469470968&thumb=1)

Now, it has been suggested that I would use Capture One with the following settings:


Now, that gave nice purples on the flowers but yellowish blades. Also it is a bit counterintuitive that you wouldn't white balance on a grey card you have in your picture.

Lightroom reproduces those colours easily.

Best regards
Erik




Better said than by me but I agree 100%  Phase One color out of the camera is most terrible unless I am shooting on bright day.  Tons of time go into getting the image where I want it, and I often shoot a reference with my X-T2 as color out of that camera is much more accurate.  Phase One WB is a mystery I have yet to figure out since 2008.  I had hoped that with the CMOS tech P1 would make it easier, but IMO it's just as tough as CCD. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: armand on January 24, 2017, 04:58:31 pm
That blue-magenta is what I had issues with in the Fuji files (granted it is xtrans not bayer like the GX).
On X-T1 I couldn't find a program that converts them properly (the jpeg was quite good) until the last version of profiles for LR. With those it's very close, at least Provia. Now with X-T2 they seem to have gone backwards.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: pflower on January 24, 2017, 06:54:46 pm
I am a bit perplexed by the film simulation modes available.  Presumably these are only relevant for jpegs and are not "burnt" into the Raw files in camera.  Who is really going to buy this camera to shoot jpegs?  Presumably the only purpose is to produce a jpeg with a certain look that you can use as a reference to develop the Raw file or am i missing something?  Or is it intended that the film simulation modes will be made available within LR or other developers to act upon a neutral Raw file?  Or, as I have already said, am I missing something obvious?

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 24, 2017, 07:19:29 pm
Film simulation in camera only applies to jpgs for the X series.  The GFX allows for the taking of a tif not raw, so you may be able to apply them in camera to a tif.  Raw files the simulations do not apply to. 

A lot of Fuji shooters will go straight to jpg as they like the film simulations, especially the Arcos. 

LR offers their attempt at matching them so you can apply them to a raw file during the conversion. 

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 24, 2017, 11:00:37 pm
LOL. In Big Rapids, Michigan, where I live, we are on the edge of 900,000 acres of national forest. No place to rent them here, AND I have orders in for both cameras, and the X1D should be along fairly soon, since I ordered fairly early. Obviously, I am not being clear enough, but patience I have already had pleanty of.

You can rent both cameras when available from LensRentals.com or BorrowLenses.com and do an comprehensive side by side comparison for yourself. Both companies will ship the camera to your home and make shipping back straightforward and easy. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: eronald on January 25, 2017, 09:31:49 am
You know what the A7RII, the Hassies, the Fuji and the Pentax all have in common?

SONY COLOR.

Sure, you can process itbdifferently but it's the same Bayer CFA, as far as anyone can tell.
Just as in the old days when it was all Kodak until Fuji, Ciba and friends came along.

Edmund

You can rent both cameras when available from LensRentals.com or BorrowLenses.com and do an comprehensive side by side comparison for yourself. Both companies will ship the camera to your home and make shipping back straightforward and easy. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Pics2 on January 25, 2017, 12:37:33 pm
I am a bit perplexed by the film simulation modes available.  Presumably these are only relevant for jpegs and are not "burnt" into the Raw files in camera.  Who is really going to buy this camera to shoot jpegs?  Presumably the only purpose is to produce a jpeg with a certain look that you can use as a reference to develop the Raw file or am i missing something?  Or is it intended that the film simulation modes will be made available within LR or other developers to act upon a neutral Raw file?  Or, as I have already said, am I missing something obvious?
Film simulation modes are already available for Lightroom, to be applied on RAW files.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 25, 2017, 12:45:40 pm
Yes they've there but they were written by Adobe from what I understand so at best they are an attempt to produce what Fuji does in camera to jpgs. And IMO the Adobe ones are a bit over blown.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Stephen Scharf on January 26, 2017, 12:21:53 am
Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D (https://plus.google.com/116458677975033889029/posts/NdVHsqGuKJa?sfc=false)

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 26, 2017, 01:46:48 am
Hi,

That article has pretty high noise to signal ratio in my humble opinion, here is some commentary of mine:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59014750

Best regards
Erik

Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D (https://plus.google.com/116458677975033889029/posts/NdVHsqGuKJa?sfc=false)

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
Title: Somewhat related
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 26, 2017, 01:56:15 am
Hi,

A few posters over at GetDPI have gotten their X1D cameras, which indicates it really started shipping in some volume.

The early posters of mages use Lightroom and they seem to be happy with the colours. Eleanor Brown has indicated that colour rendition between Phocus and Lightroom is very similar. So, that would be good news for Lightroom/ACR users, no need of changed work flow.

It will take a while until we see usable samples from the GFX, I would assume. Jim Kasson has one on order and he expect to get it in March. So in March-April we get info on everything we need to know about the GFX and a bit more :-)

Just to say, Jim Kasson's site http://blog.kasson.com (The Last Word) is a great learning experience!
Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: torger on January 26, 2017, 04:21:35 am
As noise ratios and sensor design possibilities have improved, the color filters of the cameras have got more and more neutral. Most modern cameras do a very good job matching a target with normal colors with just a linear matrix. The hardware response in terms of colors differ less than they used to. In terms of hardware color response I'd expect some difference between GFX and X1D, but not large. I would guess that a big customer like Fuji can get customizations for the CFA, and even if not the response can be modulated with the IR-filter in front, and I suppose the lenses have a small impact too.

The rest comes down to the profile. I think Hasseblad is among the best when it comes to making "pleasing color", so I would expect that I will prefer X1D color over the GFX using default raw converter and profiles.

"But just profile the camera then!" Yes, I'd certainly do that, I always do, but if you ask me I only know of one software available to the public out there that makes a good attempt at making *general-purpose* profiles, and that's DCamProf (working on a GUI version currently). All the previously available profile makers make good reproduction profiles, but doesn't even try to make a good job when you slap on a contrast curve on for general photography. Making a general-purpose profile is much about suitable gamut compression, how to handle color clipping, choosing just the right amount of contrast, and control the color appearance change caused by contrast change. It's also about various subjective adjustments like warming up midtones and highlights while cooling shadows, lightening certain colors, reducing chroma close to the neutral axis or whatever, just lots of lots of small factors that you can't control in most profile makers. It's also a quite difficult task, photographers can generally see what they like and not, but fewer can know why they like rendition A better than B, and fewer still have the ability to modify a rendition to get to where they want.

And even if you use a software like DCamProf where you have lot of possibilities to make own adjustments, the base ideals of the tone operator, gamut compressor, clipping handler etc, will still shine through. I like it myself of course as I designed it (with help of input from some photographers with exceptional color vision), but there's always other ways you could choose to do it, and to change that design you really need to be a programmer and make the software.

The manufacturers have their own in-house software tools when they design their profiles, not available to the public. Traditional medium format makers like Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf etc have excelled in very thoroughly designed profiles with many subjective adjustments. I don't always agree with them in terms of look (I don't like Phase One very much, while I do like Hasselblad), but they're always well designed according to some ideal of how pleasing colors should look like and if you like their ideals you'll love their color. Adobe's own profiles are generally quite simplistic which has caused Lightroom to get a bit poor reputation among many regarding color, but it is possible to make good profiles for ACR, Adobe themselves don't spend that much time on it though it seems. The Japanese cameras have suffered a bit from that their own raw converters aren't that pleasing to use so people end up using Lightroom and their profiles instead, which may not be the best regarding color.

Oh well, there's another thing in addition to the profile that can have quite large impact depending on how you work -- the white balance presets. If you're an outdoor photographer I bet you often just keep the default daylight white balance in many images. The tint of that will have a strong impact on the look and differ between cameras of course.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 26, 2017, 04:58:07 pm
Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....
GFX compared to X1D (https://plus.google.com/116458677975033889029/posts/NdVHsqGuKJa?sfc=false)
Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
So if you buy a Hasselblad you aren't buying "a work tool for the pro to earn money from, but a fashion accessory to be shown off on your yacht".
What a croc. He tries to trash all of the reasons that people buy Hasselblad in the first place, so I doubt he has actually used one.
The story about leaf shutters being one day obsolete and therefore you should manage without them for the next maybe ten years is just silly.
A camera comparison without any photos.
"The key advantage of a focal plane shutter is that you only have to buy one shutter, rather than paying for a new one with every lens."
Like, who has ever thought like that?
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 26, 2017, 06:11:27 pm
Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D (https://plus.google.com/116458677975033889029/posts/NdVHsqGuKJa?sfc=false)

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.

From the post: "The shorter the flange distance, the closer the sensor is to the rear exit pupil, and the better the image should be."

This, to me, is nonsense. The shorter the flange distance, the closer to the sensor the lens designer can place the exit pupil. They don't have to do that, and it seems like many lens designers are not using the 18mm FFD of the Sony E mount to move the exit pupil really close to the sensor (though some are).

And, I'm not sure that there is an obvious correlation between how close the exit pupil is to the sensor and the image quality. There are some things that get harder when that happens, such as avoiding CFA crosstalk.

Also: "The shorter the flange distance, the steeper the corner angle of light incidence."

This is patently untrue. A short FFD allows the exit pupil to be close to the sensor, which can increase CFA crosstalk, but it does not require it.

Also: " They have a new microlens and a novel silicone process to allow the sensor to tolerate a steeper angle of light incidence."

Silicone? Really?




Jim
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 26, 2017, 06:59:15 pm
As we get into these conflicting, more technical facts, and when there are alternate truths beings thrown around, I have no way of knowing what is real or not. Usually facts are facts, etc.

It seems that the GFX is a much better workhorse camera, and more modern in a number of ways. The X1D seems to be being reduced to a minimalist travel camera, with perhaps better color right out of the camera, but otherwise already dated.

And this whole idea of waiting for a global shutter in some years from now leaves me cold. How does that affect either the GFX or the X1D?

Anyway, I have to decide, to give up my place in line for the X1D, which should be coming soon. And they are booked up for a year or whatever. I know some of you more experienced in MF must be working this out, so please continue to share your views and to debunk what deserves debunking, etc.

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: eronald on January 26, 2017, 07:45:53 pm
Historically speaking, I always found that Basiccolor Input worked well as a generall-purpose camera profiler - but you really should use it with a Colorchecker DC or equivalent. There is also, I think free software from Xrite, and some software from Adobe that determines DCP primaries and even lets you edit them. And there is even a one-shot measuring devices from Image Engineering.

Of course, I would agree that DCamProf is a serious effort - but is it really necessary? :) There is only really ONE sensor per major camera generation at the moment, the Sony one, and as you argue so eloquently it would be enough that somebody measure the primaries or spectral response and publish them once and for all. Tone curves etc are a different story.

Edmund


"But just profile the camera then!" Yes, I'd certainly do that, I always do, but if you ask me I only know of one software available to the public out there that makes a good attempt at making *general-purpose* profiles, and that's DCamProf...

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 26, 2017, 08:31:12 pm
Hi,

Folks start getting their X1D-s, it seems, so we get a lot hands on info, check here:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60733-fun-x1d-2.html

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60763-x1d-4116-first-impressions.html

Shipments of the GFX start in a month or so.

Best regards
Erik


As we get into these conflicting, more technical facts, and when there are alternate truths beings thrown around, I have no way of knowing what is real or not. Usually facts are facts, etc.

It seems that the GFX is a much better workhorse camera, and more modern in a number of ways. The X1D seems to be being reduced to a minimalist travel camera, with perhaps better color right out of the camera, but otherwise already dated.

And this whole idea of waiting for a global shutter in some years from now leaves me cold. How does that affect either the GFX or the X1D?

Anyway, I have to decide, to give up my place in line for the X1D, which should be coming soon. And they are booked up for a year or whatever. I know some of you more experienced in MF must be working this out, so please continue to share your views and to debunk what deserves debunking, etc.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: torger on January 27, 2017, 03:05:41 am
Historically speaking, I always found that Basiccolor Input worked well as a generall-purpose camera profiler - but you really should use it with a Colorchecker DC or equivalent. There is also, I think free software from Xrite, and some software from Adobe that determines DCP primaries and even lets you edit them. And there is even a one-shot measuring devices from Image Engineering.

Of course, I would agree that DCamProf is a serious effort - but is it really necessary? :) There is only really ONE sensor per major camera generation at the moment, the Sony one, and as you argue so eloquently it would be enough that somebody measure the primaries or spectral response and publish them once and for all. Tone curves etc are a different story.

Matching the color, making a colorimetric profile, is a mathematical task. It has some challenges, but the established science is there, you can be blind and make an excellent implementation. This is what you need when you make a profile for a scanner or a camera for reproduction (which essentially is using a camera like a scanner). For general-purpose photography you need a tone curve to mimic the higher dynamic range in the real world, and as soon as you apply a tone curve you no longer have any standard color science models that can help you. You need to use your eyes and invent from scratch, which is what the manufacturers have done since the start and come to very different solutions.

The free software from X-Rite has no tone operator, it just slaps a Adobe tone curve on top of a colorimetric profile, and it seems the Adobe DNG Profile Editor does the same. If it doesn't it makes something really simplistic, it's easy to see with DNG profiles -- if the DNG LUT (which operates in RGB-HSV space rather than a perceptual space) is very low resolution you can't really do anything serious in terms of tone operator and indeed the output is like that. You can see the compression of red highlights which is a classic property of a simplistic RGB curve etc. I haven't analyzed the general-purpose profiles from basiccolor input, but clearly their focus is reproduction, that's where the commercial interest is. I did make a quicky profile with it and the blues got awfully dark, which is a sign that they just do it the reproduction way with a curve slapped on top.

Here's a few things a general purpose profile needs to consider, that a reproduction profile needs not:


Of the profile makers you mention I don't think anyone really consider any of those aspects. The above list contains much subjectivity, and on top of this you can and further subjective edits, some purely subjective, some in the borderland between subjectiveness and perceptual simulation. Warming up midtones and highlights in yellow-green range while cooling down shadows is one such thing in the borderland, a popular approach in many of the manufacturer's profiles, it can make sunlit landscape look more realistic than otherwise due to the mixed light situation (more spectral red content in the illumination of the sun-lit areas than in the sky-lit shadows)

Skintone appearance depends a lot on the contrast curve, and how the transition into the white point is made, especially for high key portraits. Reproduction profiles don't need to consider that at all.

The thing is that a standard RGB curve makes sort of a good job in many of those aspects, and it's computationally inexpensive, so it has a strong tradition from back in the days and onward. Adobe made a version of the RGB curve which works the same but holds the HSV-Hue fast, avoiding the typical red-orange hue distortion, but instead causing overly desaturated blue skies for example, and the strong tonal compression of for example red highlights is still there. I haven't analyzed all profile makers on the market, but it seems like using this curve on top of a reproduction profile is the standard approach. The really well-made profiles go past that though.

So even if there would be only one sensor with one CFA (note: there are documented differences in hardware color response even when same sensor is used) the profiles would look very different based on how the mentioned aspects are handled.

Here's an example showing the same camera, with two different profile designs both very well designed but with very different approaches, Leaf's vs Phase One's http://digitaltransitions.com/leaf-look-iq1-100mp-iq3-100mp/ the largest difference is indeed due to the different contrast curve -- and that is the key element to design when you make a profile (which many profile makers have limited possibilities to actually make precision edits on) -- but the more you look at it the more subtle differences you spot. I prefer the Leaf look of these two.

The more colorful subjects you shoot, the more the profile differences stand out. Vivid flowers for example really push the limits of a profile, pushing it into gamut compression and clipping range. For example, Phase One profiles can be seen to make very good highlight tonality renditions there, perhaps most clearly in red flowers, where many others' idea of just slapping on a RGB(-like) curve compresses and effectively kills tonality. In DCamProf I've spent much time focusing on these types of issues, so I do think it provides something new in terms of what you as a photographer can do. The new stuff is not about target matching, but it's about tone reproduction and all those subjective non-mathematical aspects of profiles.

A general-purpose profile doesn't need a big target like a Colorchecker DC, it will provide marginal improvement over a 24 patch color checker. Big targets are mainly for reproduction work. Why? First a general-purpose profile color correction should be exposure-independent, so it doesn't make sense to profile both a dark red and light red with the same chromaticity. Otherwise with 3D colorimetric correction you need to shoot the same exposure each frame. Making a 2.5D correction a large part of the provided large target patches doesn't make much contribution (just for averaging). Then a general-purpose profile is more sensitive to disturbances in gradients than a reproduction profile, which means that you cannot make strong non-linear corrections, which means it doesn't make sense to precisely correct closely spaced (DE-wise) patches. Large targets are often glossy and very hard to shoot right without significant glare issues. The software can compensate to some extent, but in a mediocre setup the large targets make more harm than good. Thus I don't think that in BasICColor would make a significantly better general-purpose profile with a larger target, than there's something suspicious going on. If it is hard-wired to always make a reproduction-style 3D LUT for correction it might require a large target to just cover the whole gamut so that could be a reason, but if designed to handle smaller target that should not be a problem for general-purpose profile making.

The "robustness" point mentioned above is sort of generic, it's about that you must be really careful about non-linearities, be careful so that your corrections doesn't increase noise, and behave well for crazy colors like artifical narrow band lights, and behave well when the exposure is less than optimal and have many clipped elements. A reproduction profile is used in controlled conditions, clipping shouldn't occur at all, you shouldn't dig into shadows more than necessary etc, so it doesn't need to be robust in the same way.

So how does all this tie back to GFX vs X1D color discussion? I'd say don't worry so much about the hardware, but really look at the end result you get with the raw conversion pipelines provided. The native conversion should be the reference, but try also more popular raw converters like Lightroom and see what the profiles there can do. And of course you could/should try making your own profiles, but making a good general-purpose profile is not as easy as one may think with the currently available software.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: melgross on January 27, 2017, 11:46:38 am
They both have the same sensor as I understand it, but how has the sensor in each been tweaked. I am glad that they can be made to look the same, but what is the "same," or do you mean each can emulate to the other? I wantto  purchase one of these, and am leaning toward the GFX, but not if it has "inferior" color, however that word might apply to standard MF images.  I realize that I am asking the world, here, but some hints may be Enough. If they both are great, good. Would hate to purchase one and find that everyone feels the other has better color, etc.

I'm going to assume that everyone here has a high quality, fairly new, well calibrated graphics monitor capable of doing Adobe RGB. Otherwise, any statements on how good online photos look are meaningless. In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway. You can't count on the browsers.

So just keep this in mind when viewing. You need to know if an image is anything other than sRGB.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: melgross on January 27, 2017, 11:51:24 am
Well, that is music to my ears. However, I shoot only raw, and not JPG. So, if I can work with raw using either camera, with perhaps the addition of a profile, that would be great. How do we install the profile in the camera. I imagine, easily, but I have never done it, except in post. Or, is post, when we do it?

The camera should allow you to select sRGB or Adobe RGB. Select Adobe RGB. That's all you need to do for jpeg. But for RAW, it doesn't matter, as all the gamut the sensor is capable of delivering will appear in the RAW.

Minor color differences in cameras are mostly apparent in the Jpeg converter engine in the camera. It has no effect on the RAW images. Don't worry about it. I'm able to get the color on almost any quality camera to match that of any other quality camera.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 27, 2017, 12:02:54 pm
In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway.

Could you explain what you mean by that? My current workstation is a 256GB Dell 7910/AMD W8000/NEC PA322UHD-SV running Win 10. All the calibrations work fine. Images in CIELab, PPRGB, sRGB, etc all display fine and spectrophotometric measurements are fine.

Previous Win 7 systems also were fine. There were some color management issues with Vista.

Jim
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 27, 2017, 12:32:05 pm
Hi Jim,

It may be that the magic sauce made by Hassy and Phase only works with the Mac?

Best regards
Erik

Could you explain what you mean by that? My current workstation is a 256GB Dell 7910/AMD W8000/NEC PA322UHD-SV running Win 10. All the calibrations work fine. Images in CIELab, PPRGB, sRGB, etc all display fine and spectrophotometric measurements are fine.

Previous Win 7 systems also were fine. There were some color management issues with Vista.

Jim
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 27, 2017, 12:47:54 pm
Windows doesn't have (yet) a system wide, unified color management system. Applications have to implement their own. This doesn't mean that with all the right hardware and application you can't have a complete color managed workflow in Windows, because you sure can.

Firefox should have a complete color management implementation. I think Chrome does as well. I know that both Internet Explorer and Edge (like many other core Windows applications) are partially or not color managed.

As with many things in photography, a lot depends on your end goal.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 27, 2017, 12:54:58 pm
I'm going to assume that everyone here has a high quality, fairly new, well calibrated graphics monitor capable of doing Adobe RGB. Otherwise, any statements on how good online photos look are meaningless. In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway. You can't count on the browsers.

So just keep this in mind when viewing. You need to know if an image is anything other than sRGB.

Yes please explain the part about Windows and a lack of color management?  I guess you know more about it than I do along with NEC, eye one, Epson and Adobe combined.

I love these kind of total BS generalizations.

Windows has excellent color management.

Period

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 27, 2017, 01:12:15 pm
Hi Paul,

Nice to hear that you are satisfied with Windows colour management. I am a Mac user, but I am considering to switch to Windows.

Just to say, I am a Unix/Linux user at heart, but I find that Apple pricing is a bit steep.

Best regards
Erik




Yes please explain the part about Windows and a lack of color management?  I guess you know more about it than I do along with NEC, eye one, Epson and Adobe combined.

I love these kind of total BS generalizations.

Windows has excellent color management.

Period

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: hubell on January 27, 2017, 01:34:23 pm
This is quite the thread in terms of the the amount of blatantly inaccurate information. There are a couple of highly experienced and truly knowledgeable people in the discussion, who have pretty much refuted the basic issue of how easy it is to create your own custom profile for a Fuji GFX to use in LR that will give you the color you want as a starting point with the GFX if you don't like what you get out of the standard profiles for the GFX included in LR. Please note that I am NOT saying the tonality and color that you will get with those profiles in LR will necessarily be "bad". I just have reservations based upon Fuji's apparent belief that what sells cameras (and film before that) was a certain look that emphasizes high contrast and heavy saturation. 
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 27, 2017, 01:45:14 pm
I just have reservations based upon Fuji's apparent belief that what sells cameras (and film before that) was a certain look that emphasizes high contrast and heavy saturation. 

Their Astia profile is much softer, although not neutral (X-T2). It could be a good starting point for a RAW file, at least until someone makes custom profiles.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 27, 2017, 01:46:00 pm
The camera should allow you to select sRGB or Adobe RGB. Select Adobe RGB. That's all you need to do for jpeg. But for RAW, it doesn't matter, as all the gamut the sensor is capable of delivering will appear in the RAW.

Raw files don't have gamut in any meaningful sense. The first reason is that the data in a raw file is not encoded as colors. The second is that the range of colors obtainable from a raw file depends on subsequent processing. The raw developer performs conversion of that data to approximate (or not) the colors of the original scene. The gamut of colors in the converted image is limited by signal-to-noise ratio criteria, color accuracy requirements, and other things not inherent in the raw image. Given those limiting factors, the skirt characteristics of the CFA filters which is inherent in the raw image, plays a role.

Jim
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: BobShaw on January 27, 2017, 04:00:23 pm
This is quite the thread in terms of the the amount of blatantly inaccurate information.
Pretty normal actually.
Let's compare two cameras never touched or used without any photos from them.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: melgross on January 27, 2017, 07:11:59 pm
Could you explain what you mean by that? My current workstation is a 256GB Dell 7910/AMD W8000/NEC PA322UHD-SV running Win 10. All the calibrations work fine. Images in CIELab, PPRGB, sRGB, etc all display fine and spectrophotometric measurements are fine.

Previous Win 7 systems also were fine. There were some color management issues with Vista.

Jim

There has been no built-in color management in Windows previous to 10. In 10, it's turned off because of serious flaws, and difficulty of integration. Software that needed color management needed to implement it itself, such as Photoshop.

The problem with that approach is that you can't view a color managed file, other than sRGB, outside of color managed software. Windows, and Android, both assume a file to be sRGB. Therefore, those files, whether or not they have a profile, will be viewed correctly in any software. But anything else will not be.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: melgross on January 27, 2017, 07:13:08 pm
Raw files don't have gamut in any meaningful sense. The first reason is that the data in a raw file is not encoded as colors. The second is that the range of colors obtainable from a raw file depends on subsequent processing. The raw developer performs conversion of that data to approximate (or not) the colors of the original scene. The gamut of colors in the converted image is limited by signal-to-noise ratio criteria, color accuracy requirements, and other things not inherent in the raw image. Given those limiting factors, the skirt characteristics of the CFA filters which is inherent in the raw image, plays a role.

Jim

That's the same thing I said.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: melgross on January 27, 2017, 07:19:46 pm
Yes please explain the part about Windows and a lack of color management?  I guess you know more about it than I do along with NEC, eye one, Epson and Adobe combined.

I love these kind of total BS generalizations.

Windows has excellent color management.

Period

Paul Caldwell

Windows does not have a built-in system wide color management system that is turned on by default, because it is very buggy, and will cause problems with other color managed software that wasn't designed to work with a system wide color managed Windows system. There was a color management system for Win 7, but it was never used, because of serious problems.

It needs to be realized that Microsoft has no reason to care about this. Only a small fraction of Windows users work with managed color. On the other hand, Apple is very involved, because a large percentage of their much smaller sales are involved in this.

I really don't want to argue with you on this, but you are wrong.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Paul2660 on January 27, 2017, 07:50:27 pm
Windows does not have a built-in system wide color management system that is turned on by default, because it is very buggy, and will cause problems with other color managed software that wasn't designed to work with a system wide color managed Windows system. There was a color management system for Win 7, but it was never used, because of serious problems.

It needs to be realized that Microsoft has no reason to care about this. Only a small fraction of Windows users work with managed color. On the other hand, Apple is very involved, because a large percentage of their much smaller sales are involved in this.

I really don't want to argue with you on this, but you are wrong.

If you don't want to argue, then please don't post inaccurate information about Windows and color management.

Net, since Win7, color management has been excellent in Windows in fact in many ways better than Mac, I use both systems.  Try to get a good screen profile on a retina display.

Windows handles Color management across the OS, just like Mac.  The facts you imply is does not is just one of the age old Mac Vs Win arguments that were so popular, just like CCD has better color than CMOS.   And you imply Mac with Colorsync is better by default?  I can't imaging attempting to work with any of the Adobe products for Mac without using a 3rd party toolset to generate a color profile, such as eye1, Nec spectraview or Eizo's tools for displays.  Colorsync works great when the icc profile is generated correctly just like Windows can.

Run any color management software on windows, I use NEC Spectraview software with NEC monitors.  This software generates a color profile that is immediately loaded into the color management section in windows (under control panel/color management).  Any and I mean any software program that is color management aware will look at this location and use the generated profile for the display, this included Adobe CC, LR, Capture One, Adobe Premier Pro, etc.  I am sure the Corel products work the same way, however I do not use them. 

NET, you can generate a color profile from Spectraview or any other software for display color management and Windows works fine with Color management.  If you feel that Mac by default knows how to profile a modern color monitor without any software I feel you are mistaken.  Mac requires the same process. 

The software profile for the display handles the issues within the display process between applications and the monitor, (note that all of the color aware applications will now look for the generated color profile). 

For printing, yet again, another set of profiles has to be generated or you can use canned profiles from the printer manufacture.  Either way these are again loaded as icc profiles in a very specific location in the windows software, windows/system32/drivers/color and again all applications such as Adobe CC LR C1 will look ask you to look for a specific printer profile in this location.  If another device is used to generate a printer profile, it will also be automatically stored here. 

This allows a very clear process that is "color managed" within windows, that allows you to take a raw file, convert it to a tif, work on it in LR or CC, soft proof it on screen and then print it and at the same time generate a print that is identical in colors within the gamut of stated printer to the original image.

If you believe other wise, then I would recommend reading up on this process and you could start with the "Digital Print" by Jeff Schewe.  Either OS is totally capable of generation of "color managed" environment from initial import of raw to final print.

And by the way, you may want to do a bit more homework on the number of professional users that are Windows vs Mac based.  In the US the trend is still strongly towards Mac, but in Europe and especially Asia, just the opposite is true. 

Paul Caldwell

Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 27, 2017, 11:33:27 pm
There has been no built-in color management in Windows previous to 10. In 10, it's turned off because of serious flaws, and difficulty of integration. Software that needed color management needed to implement it itself, such as Photoshop.

The problem with that approach is that you can't view a color managed file, other than sRGB, outside of color managed software. Windows, and Android, both assume a file to be sRGB. Therefore, those files, whether or not they have a profile, will be viewed correctly in any software. But anything else will not be.

I'm going to ignore the first paragraph. As to the second, this is quite different from what you said earlier: "In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway."

Your first statement said that you won't see the right representation of anything but an sRGB file if you run Windows. Your second statement says that you won't see the right colors if you run Windows and use an app that is color-management challenged.

All the image-editing apps I use do color management just fine under Win 10. They're not hard to find.

Jim
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 28, 2017, 04:08:40 am
On top of that, while Windows per se doesn't have 10bit color support, this is handled by video drivers (if you have the right hardware) and is supported by applications. The fact that Windows image viewer doesn't properly support ProPhoto is meaningless for a professional working with color.

And no, the fact that color management at that level is not part of the system but handled by applications is not because of flaws or bugs. They will probably introduce it in the future, if necessary, but right now it works perfectly fine the way it is. It's a design choice, not the result of problems.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: algrove on January 28, 2017, 11:52:29 pm
I tired of reading this thread after about 4 pages of postings.

Anyone who is sponsored/affiliated by/with any manufacturer is biased. That is the reality of the situation. Are you going to turn way the spoon that feeds you?

Thus I buy the tools that I beleieve will give me what I want in my images. Most of us can adjust any RAW file these days too please ourselves.  Isn't that what it's all about anyway? I got great images from my 645Z which has the same CMOS bayer filter sensor as the X1D and GFX. I do not expect any problems with either.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: razrblck on January 29, 2017, 03:16:26 am
Most of us can adjust any RAW file these days too please ourselves.  Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

Spot on, and if you want to apply that to commercial photography you can replace "ourselves" with "our clients".

Sometimes getting the closest representation of reality is the goal, but that is such a tiny niche in the market that the people that really need it already have a comprehensive set of tools and a tried and true workflow.

The Fuji and the Hasselblad are two different tools that just happen to have the same sensor. Will they be able to match in colour? Maybe. Will the tiny differences really matter at the end of the day for almost all uses? Nah.
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: torger on January 29, 2017, 05:49:41 am
I've developed color-managed software for Mac, Windows and Linux. The special thing about the Mac is that it automatically converts everything to sRGB unless you as programmer requests otherwise, while on Windows and Linux everything is let through without modification to the screen (so you get the screen's full gamut) unless you request otherwise.

For non-color-managed apps that shows images anyway, the Mac approach is handy, you get correct sRGB output while on Windows/Linux you get those oversaturated images with your wide-gamut screen. For color managed applications however, it doesn't really matter.

In Linux/Windows I've for years used Firefox as web browser with color management enabled (many web browsers lack color management) and all photo applications are already color managed, and that's all I've needed.

Android has truly no color management support though, which means that there's no support for loading an ICC profile for the screen. There you need to do everything in the app if you want color management...
Title: Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
Post by: Ancient Tiger on January 29, 2017, 06:52:47 am
Spot on, and if you want to apply that to commercial photography you can replace "ourselves" with "our clients".

Sometimes getting the closest representation of reality is the goal, but that is such a tiny niche in the market that the people that really need it already have a comprehensive set of tools and a tried and true workflow.

The Fuji and the Hasselblad are two different tools that just happen to have the same sensor. Will they be able to match in colour? Maybe. Will the tiny differences really matter at the end of the day for almost all uses? Nah.
Hallelujah!

At last someone has said what many of us think. There will be so many more important differences in the two cameras that will make people decide which one they will choose. A tiny color difference which is easily corrected isn't going to be one of them.