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Author Topic: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D  (Read 105254 times)

Pics2

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2017, 12:37:33 pm »

I am a bit perplexed by the film simulation modes available.  Presumably these are only relevant for jpegs and are not "burnt" into the Raw files in camera.  Who is really going to buy this camera to shoot jpegs?  Presumably the only purpose is to produce a jpeg with a certain look that you can use as a reference to develop the Raw file or am i missing something?  Or is it intended that the film simulation modes will be made available within LR or other developers to act upon a neutral Raw file?  Or, as I have already said, am I missing something obvious?
Film simulation modes are already available for Lightroom, to be applied on RAW files.
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Paul2660

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2017, 12:45:40 pm »

Yes they've there but they were written by Adobe from what I understand so at best they are an attempt to produce what Fuji does in camera to jpgs. And IMO the Adobe ones are a bit over blown.

Paul Caldwell
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2017, 12:21:53 am »

Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 12:34:35 am by Stephen Scharf »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2017, 01:46:48 am »

Hi,

That article has pretty high noise to signal ratio in my humble opinion, here is some commentary of mine:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59014750

Best regards
Erik

Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
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Somewhat related
« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2017, 01:56:15 am »

Hi,

A few posters over at GetDPI have gotten their X1D cameras, which indicates it really started shipping in some volume.

The early posters of mages use Lightroom and they seem to be happy with the colours. Eleanor Brown has indicated that colour rendition between Phocus and Lightroom is very similar. So, that would be good news for Lightroom/ACR users, no need of changed work flow.

It will take a while until we see usable samples from the GFX, I would assume. Jim Kasson has one on order and he expect to get it in March. So in March-April we get info on everything we need to know about the GFX and a bit more :-)

Just to say, Jim Kasson's site http://blog.kasson.com (The Last Word) is a great learning experience!
Best regards
Erik
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torger

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2017, 04:21:35 am »

As noise ratios and sensor design possibilities have improved, the color filters of the cameras have got more and more neutral. Most modern cameras do a very good job matching a target with normal colors with just a linear matrix. The hardware response in terms of colors differ less than they used to. In terms of hardware color response I'd expect some difference between GFX and X1D, but not large. I would guess that a big customer like Fuji can get customizations for the CFA, and even if not the response can be modulated with the IR-filter in front, and I suppose the lenses have a small impact too.

The rest comes down to the profile. I think Hasseblad is among the best when it comes to making "pleasing color", so I would expect that I will prefer X1D color over the GFX using default raw converter and profiles.

"But just profile the camera then!" Yes, I'd certainly do that, I always do, but if you ask me I only know of one software available to the public out there that makes a good attempt at making *general-purpose* profiles, and that's DCamProf (working on a GUI version currently). All the previously available profile makers make good reproduction profiles, but doesn't even try to make a good job when you slap on a contrast curve on for general photography. Making a general-purpose profile is much about suitable gamut compression, how to handle color clipping, choosing just the right amount of contrast, and control the color appearance change caused by contrast change. It's also about various subjective adjustments like warming up midtones and highlights while cooling shadows, lightening certain colors, reducing chroma close to the neutral axis or whatever, just lots of lots of small factors that you can't control in most profile makers. It's also a quite difficult task, photographers can generally see what they like and not, but fewer can know why they like rendition A better than B, and fewer still have the ability to modify a rendition to get to where they want.

And even if you use a software like DCamProf where you have lot of possibilities to make own adjustments, the base ideals of the tone operator, gamut compressor, clipping handler etc, will still shine through. I like it myself of course as I designed it (with help of input from some photographers with exceptional color vision), but there's always other ways you could choose to do it, and to change that design you really need to be a programmer and make the software.

The manufacturers have their own in-house software tools when they design their profiles, not available to the public. Traditional medium format makers like Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf etc have excelled in very thoroughly designed profiles with many subjective adjustments. I don't always agree with them in terms of look (I don't like Phase One very much, while I do like Hasselblad), but they're always well designed according to some ideal of how pleasing colors should look like and if you like their ideals you'll love their color. Adobe's own profiles are generally quite simplistic which has caused Lightroom to get a bit poor reputation among many regarding color, but it is possible to make good profiles for ACR, Adobe themselves don't spend that much time on it though it seems. The Japanese cameras have suffered a bit from that their own raw converters aren't that pleasing to use so people end up using Lightroom and their profiles instead, which may not be the best regarding color.

Oh well, there's another thing in addition to the profile that can have quite large impact depending on how you work -- the white balance presets. If you're an outdoor photographer I bet you often just keep the default daylight white balance in many images. The tint of that will have a strong impact on the look and differ between cameras of course.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 04:38:58 am by torger »
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BobShaw

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2017, 04:58:07 pm »

Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....
GFX compared to X1D
Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.
So if you buy a Hasselblad you aren't buying "a work tool for the pro to earn money from, but a fashion accessory to be shown off on your yacht".
What a croc. He tries to trash all of the reasons that people buy Hasselblad in the first place, so I doubt he has actually used one.
The story about leaf shutters being one day obsolete and therefore you should manage without them for the next maybe ten years is just silly.
A camera comparison without any photos.
"The key advantage of a focal plane shutter is that you only have to buy one shutter, rather than paying for a new one with every lens."
Like, who has ever thought like that?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2017, 06:11:27 pm »

Michael, you might want to read this post from Sator comparing and contrasting the GFX vs the X1D....

GFX compared to X1D

Reading the entire post is well worth it as he goes through an extensive evaluation of the pros and cons of each system.

From the post: "The shorter the flange distance, the closer the sensor is to the rear exit pupil, and the better the image should be."

This, to me, is nonsense. The shorter the flange distance, the closer to the sensor the lens designer can place the exit pupil. They don't have to do that, and it seems like many lens designers are not using the 18mm FFD of the Sony E mount to move the exit pupil really close to the sensor (though some are).

And, I'm not sure that there is an obvious correlation between how close the exit pupil is to the sensor and the image quality. There are some things that get harder when that happens, such as avoiding CFA crosstalk.

Also: "The shorter the flange distance, the steeper the corner angle of light incidence."

This is patently untrue. A short FFD allows the exit pupil to be close to the sensor, which can increase CFA crosstalk, but it does not require it.

Also: " They have a new microlens and a novel silicone process to allow the sensor to tolerate a steeper angle of light incidence."

Silicone? Really?




Jim
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:34:46 pm by Jim Kasson »
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2017, 06:59:15 pm »

As we get into these conflicting, more technical facts, and when there are alternate truths beings thrown around, I have no way of knowing what is real or not. Usually facts are facts, etc.

It seems that the GFX is a much better workhorse camera, and more modern in a number of ways. The X1D seems to be being reduced to a minimalist travel camera, with perhaps better color right out of the camera, but otherwise already dated.

And this whole idea of waiting for a global shutter in some years from now leaves me cold. How does that affect either the GFX or the X1D?

Anyway, I have to decide, to give up my place in line for the X1D, which should be coming soon. And they are booked up for a year or whatever. I know some of you more experienced in MF must be working this out, so please continue to share your views and to debunk what deserves debunking, etc.

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eronald

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2017, 07:45:53 pm »

Historically speaking, I always found that Basiccolor Input worked well as a generall-purpose camera profiler - but you really should use it with a Colorchecker DC or equivalent. There is also, I think free software from Xrite, and some software from Adobe that determines DCP primaries and even lets you edit them. And there is even a one-shot measuring devices from Image Engineering.

Of course, I would agree that DCamProf is a serious effort - but is it really necessary? :) There is only really ONE sensor per major camera generation at the moment, the Sony one, and as you argue so eloquently it would be enough that somebody measure the primaries or spectral response and publish them once and for all. Tone curves etc are a different story.

Edmund


"But just profile the camera then!" Yes, I'd certainly do that, I always do, but if you ask me I only know of one software available to the public out there that makes a good attempt at making *general-purpose* profiles, and that's DCamProf...

« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:01:11 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2017, 08:31:12 pm »

Hi,

Folks start getting their X1D-s, it seems, so we get a lot hands on info, check here:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60733-fun-x1d-2.html

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60763-x1d-4116-first-impressions.html

Shipments of the GFX start in a month or so.

Best regards
Erik


As we get into these conflicting, more technical facts, and when there are alternate truths beings thrown around, I have no way of knowing what is real or not. Usually facts are facts, etc.

It seems that the GFX is a much better workhorse camera, and more modern in a number of ways. The X1D seems to be being reduced to a minimalist travel camera, with perhaps better color right out of the camera, but otherwise already dated.

And this whole idea of waiting for a global shutter in some years from now leaves me cold. How does that affect either the GFX or the X1D?

Anyway, I have to decide, to give up my place in line for the X1D, which should be coming soon. And they are booked up for a year or whatever. I know some of you more experienced in MF must be working this out, so please continue to share your views and to debunk what deserves debunking, etc.
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torger

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2017, 03:05:41 am »

Historically speaking, I always found that Basiccolor Input worked well as a generall-purpose camera profiler - but you really should use it with a Colorchecker DC or equivalent. There is also, I think free software from Xrite, and some software from Adobe that determines DCP primaries and even lets you edit them. And there is even a one-shot measuring devices from Image Engineering.

Of course, I would agree that DCamProf is a serious effort - but is it really necessary? :) There is only really ONE sensor per major camera generation at the moment, the Sony one, and as you argue so eloquently it would be enough that somebody measure the primaries or spectral response and publish them once and for all. Tone curves etc are a different story.

Matching the color, making a colorimetric profile, is a mathematical task. It has some challenges, but the established science is there, you can be blind and make an excellent implementation. This is what you need when you make a profile for a scanner or a camera for reproduction (which essentially is using a camera like a scanner). For general-purpose photography you need a tone curve to mimic the higher dynamic range in the real world, and as soon as you apply a tone curve you no longer have any standard color science models that can help you. You need to use your eyes and invent from scratch, which is what the manufacturers have done since the start and come to very different solutions.

The free software from X-Rite has no tone operator, it just slaps a Adobe tone curve on top of a colorimetric profile, and it seems the Adobe DNG Profile Editor does the same. If it doesn't it makes something really simplistic, it's easy to see with DNG profiles -- if the DNG LUT (which operates in RGB-HSV space rather than a perceptual space) is very low resolution you can't really do anything serious in terms of tone operator and indeed the output is like that. You can see the compression of red highlights which is a classic property of a simplistic RGB curve etc. I haven't analyzed the general-purpose profiles from basiccolor input, but clearly their focus is reproduction, that's where the commercial interest is. I did make a quicky profile with it and the blues got awfully dark, which is a sign that they just do it the reproduction way with a curve slapped on top.

Here's a few things a general purpose profile needs to consider, that a reproduction profile needs not:

  • apply a contrast curve of some suitable shape
  • deal with the color appearance changes caused by the contrast curve, largest aspect saturation but also other more subtle things
  • gamut compression
  • rendering of partially clipped colors
  • transition into whitepoint
  • robustness

Of the profile makers you mention I don't think anyone really consider any of those aspects. The above list contains much subjectivity, and on top of this you can and further subjective edits, some purely subjective, some in the borderland between subjectiveness and perceptual simulation. Warming up midtones and highlights in yellow-green range while cooling down shadows is one such thing in the borderland, a popular approach in many of the manufacturer's profiles, it can make sunlit landscape look more realistic than otherwise due to the mixed light situation (more spectral red content in the illumination of the sun-lit areas than in the sky-lit shadows)

Skintone appearance depends a lot on the contrast curve, and how the transition into the white point is made, especially for high key portraits. Reproduction profiles don't need to consider that at all.

The thing is that a standard RGB curve makes sort of a good job in many of those aspects, and it's computationally inexpensive, so it has a strong tradition from back in the days and onward. Adobe made a version of the RGB curve which works the same but holds the HSV-Hue fast, avoiding the typical red-orange hue distortion, but instead causing overly desaturated blue skies for example, and the strong tonal compression of for example red highlights is still there. I haven't analyzed all profile makers on the market, but it seems like using this curve on top of a reproduction profile is the standard approach. The really well-made profiles go past that though.

So even if there would be only one sensor with one CFA (note: there are documented differences in hardware color response even when same sensor is used) the profiles would look very different based on how the mentioned aspects are handled.

Here's an example showing the same camera, with two different profile designs both very well designed but with very different approaches, Leaf's vs Phase One's http://digitaltransitions.com/leaf-look-iq1-100mp-iq3-100mp/ the largest difference is indeed due to the different contrast curve -- and that is the key element to design when you make a profile (which many profile makers have limited possibilities to actually make precision edits on) -- but the more you look at it the more subtle differences you spot. I prefer the Leaf look of these two.

The more colorful subjects you shoot, the more the profile differences stand out. Vivid flowers for example really push the limits of a profile, pushing it into gamut compression and clipping range. For example, Phase One profiles can be seen to make very good highlight tonality renditions there, perhaps most clearly in red flowers, where many others' idea of just slapping on a RGB(-like) curve compresses and effectively kills tonality. In DCamProf I've spent much time focusing on these types of issues, so I do think it provides something new in terms of what you as a photographer can do. The new stuff is not about target matching, but it's about tone reproduction and all those subjective non-mathematical aspects of profiles.

A general-purpose profile doesn't need a big target like a Colorchecker DC, it will provide marginal improvement over a 24 patch color checker. Big targets are mainly for reproduction work. Why? First a general-purpose profile color correction should be exposure-independent, so it doesn't make sense to profile both a dark red and light red with the same chromaticity. Otherwise with 3D colorimetric correction you need to shoot the same exposure each frame. Making a 2.5D correction a large part of the provided large target patches doesn't make much contribution (just for averaging). Then a general-purpose profile is more sensitive to disturbances in gradients than a reproduction profile, which means that you cannot make strong non-linear corrections, which means it doesn't make sense to precisely correct closely spaced (DE-wise) patches. Large targets are often glossy and very hard to shoot right without significant glare issues. The software can compensate to some extent, but in a mediocre setup the large targets make more harm than good. Thus I don't think that in BasICColor would make a significantly better general-purpose profile with a larger target, than there's something suspicious going on. If it is hard-wired to always make a reproduction-style 3D LUT for correction it might require a large target to just cover the whole gamut so that could be a reason, but if designed to handle smaller target that should not be a problem for general-purpose profile making.

The "robustness" point mentioned above is sort of generic, it's about that you must be really careful about non-linearities, be careful so that your corrections doesn't increase noise, and behave well for crazy colors like artifical narrow band lights, and behave well when the exposure is less than optimal and have many clipped elements. A reproduction profile is used in controlled conditions, clipping shouldn't occur at all, you shouldn't dig into shadows more than necessary etc, so it doesn't need to be robust in the same way.

So how does all this tie back to GFX vs X1D color discussion? I'd say don't worry so much about the hardware, but really look at the end result you get with the raw conversion pipelines provided. The native conversion should be the reference, but try also more popular raw converters like Lightroom and see what the profiles there can do. And of course you could/should try making your own profiles, but making a good general-purpose profile is not as easy as one may think with the currently available software.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 03:43:16 am by torger »
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melgross

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2017, 11:46:38 am »

They both have the same sensor as I understand it, but how has the sensor in each been tweaked. I am glad that they can be made to look the same, but what is the "same," or do you mean each can emulate to the other? I wantto  purchase one of these, and am leaning toward the GFX, but not if it has "inferior" color, however that word might apply to standard MF images.  I realize that I am asking the world, here, but some hints may be Enough. If they both are great, good. Would hate to purchase one and find that everyone feels the other has better color, etc.

I'm going to assume that everyone here has a high quality, fairly new, well calibrated graphics monitor capable of doing Adobe RGB. Otherwise, any statements on how good online photos look are meaningless. In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway. You can't count on the browsers.

So just keep this in mind when viewing. You need to know if an image is anything other than sRGB.
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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2017, 11:51:24 am »

Well, that is music to my ears. However, I shoot only raw, and not JPG. So, if I can work with raw using either camera, with perhaps the addition of a profile, that would be great. How do we install the profile in the camera. I imagine, easily, but I have never done it, except in post. Or, is post, when we do it?

The camera should allow you to select sRGB or Adobe RGB. Select Adobe RGB. That's all you need to do for jpeg. But for RAW, it doesn't matter, as all the gamut the sensor is capable of delivering will appear in the RAW.

Minor color differences in cameras are mostly apparent in the Jpeg converter engine in the camera. It has no effect on the RAW images. Don't worry about it. I'm able to get the color on almost any quality camera to match that of any other quality camera.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2017, 12:02:54 pm »

In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway.

Could you explain what you mean by that? My current workstation is a 256GB Dell 7910/AMD W8000/NEC PA322UHD-SV running Win 10. All the calibrations work fine. Images in CIELab, PPRGB, sRGB, etc all display fine and spectrophotometric measurements are fine.

Previous Win 7 systems also were fine. There were some color management issues with Vista.

Jim

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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2017, 12:32:05 pm »

Hi Jim,

It may be that the magic sauce made by Hassy and Phase only works with the Mac?

Best regards
Erik

Could you explain what you mean by that? My current workstation is a 256GB Dell 7910/AMD W8000/NEC PA322UHD-SV running Win 10. All the calibrations work fine. Images in CIELab, PPRGB, sRGB, etc all display fine and spectrophotometric measurements are fine.

Previous Win 7 systems also were fine. There were some color management issues with Vista.

Jim
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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2017, 12:47:54 pm »

Windows doesn't have (yet) a system wide, unified color management system. Applications have to implement their own. This doesn't mean that with all the right hardware and application you can't have a complete color managed workflow in Windows, because you sure can.

Firefox should have a complete color management implementation. I think Chrome does as well. I know that both Internet Explorer and Edge (like many other core Windows applications) are partially or not color managed.

As with many things in photography, a lot depends on your end goal.
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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2017, 12:54:58 pm »

I'm going to assume that everyone here has a high quality, fairly new, well calibrated graphics monitor capable of doing Adobe RGB. Otherwise, any statements on how good online photos look are meaningless. In addition, if you're using Windows, you have no real color management, and unless the image is in sRGB, you won't be seeing it correctly anyway. You can't count on the browsers.

So just keep this in mind when viewing. You need to know if an image is anything other than sRGB.

Yes please explain the part about Windows and a lack of color management?  I guess you know more about it than I do along with NEC, eye one, Epson and Adobe combined.

I love these kind of total BS generalizations.

Windows has excellent color management.

Period

Paul Caldwell
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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2017, 01:12:15 pm »

Hi Paul,

Nice to hear that you are satisfied with Windows colour management. I am a Mac user, but I am considering to switch to Windows.

Just to say, I am a Unix/Linux user at heart, but I find that Apple pricing is a bit steep.

Best regards
Erik




Yes please explain the part about Windows and a lack of color management?  I guess you know more about it than I do along with NEC, eye one, Epson and Adobe combined.

I love these kind of total BS generalizations.

Windows has excellent color management.

Period

Paul Caldwell
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Re: Color with the Fuji GFX as Compared to the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2017, 01:34:23 pm »

This is quite the thread in terms of the the amount of blatantly inaccurate information. There are a couple of highly experienced and truly knowledgeable people in the discussion, who have pretty much refuted the basic issue of how easy it is to create your own custom profile for a Fuji GFX to use in LR that will give you the color you want as a starting point with the GFX if you don't like what you get out of the standard profiles for the GFX included in LR. Please note that I am NOT saying the tonality and color that you will get with those profiles in LR will necessarily be "bad". I just have reservations based upon Fuji's apparent belief that what sells cameras (and film before that) was a certain look that emphasizes high contrast and heavy saturation. 
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