Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: amolitor on January 01, 2016, 11:51:37 pm
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Is anyone else as baffled as I at Alan's latest?
He written some pretty serious pieces at times, but lately he wants to tell us about his to use basic features of various tools in remarkably unsophisticated, a cynic might even say naive, ways.
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IHe written some pretty serious pieces at times, but lately he wants to tell us about his to use basic features of various tools in remarkably unsophisticated, a cynic might even say naive, ways.
I think this is really harsh...if you don't like the article, fine, say so. But to attach a demeaning series of descriptions is useless.
Point in fact, it was during this trip that I convinced Alain to try the Pano merge in Lightroom and he was quite surprised at how good it was. So, for him it was a revelation which prompted an enthusiastic article.
BTW, not for nothing but his name ain't Alan...he's French. His name is Alain...kinda another sing of a lack of respect huh?
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... remarkably unsophisticated, a cynic might even say naive, ways.
It might be helpful to explain what makes it so.
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Is anyone else as baffled as I at Alan's latest?
He written some pretty serious pieces at times, but lately he wants to tell us about his to use basic features of various tools in remarkably unsophisticated, a cynic might even say naive, ways.
Hello Andrew,
what do you expect when you read someone else's article : A repetition of what you usually do and therefor a proof that your doing is right, or do you want to get to know a different perspective of the things ?
Alain shows us in this article how he is usually solving his problems, no more. If, in your opinion, there is a better way of doing so, feel free to ask Kevin if you can provide an article.
But, and this is the most important point, even if there are better ways to go, there is no reason to call him 'unsophisticated' and 'naiv'. Both expressions strike him personally.
Robert
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What I see, is an interesting, useful and detailed article by an accomplished and generous artist, and a mean, totally useless and tactless snip by a very negative person.
Going out and trying to photograph something might help. Shooting in JPG should be just fine.
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Fair enough.
If you guys want to pay to read what appears to be simply a worked example of what each of two manuals says, far be it from me to judge.
I said naive because Alain seems not even to be aware that many of his difficulties would be solved if he were to capture extra material around the edges. It is inconceivable that he's not aware of this, obviously.
The use of the word collage is simply wrong. Collage has a meaning and this isn't it.
Yes yes, I'm a big meanie and ought to be banned. This may be inconceivable to you, but I'd say the same to Alain's face. Preferably over drinks.
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If you guys want to pay to read what appears to be simply a worked example of what each of two manuals says, far be it from me to judge.
I didn't have to pay anything extra for reading that article (well, beside the annual subscription), did you?
I thought it was a well constructed tutorial including very pleasing pictures, some factual info from Death Valley, and well-laid out and easy to follow text.
Perhaps an overkill for an experienced photoshopper, but surely appreciated by less experienced shooters, and as always quite inspirational for most photographers. Pointing out and documenting possible problems with missing parts of the sky makes for a good and practical example, and a good tip to capture a few extra frames while photographing the scene.
As you suggested in your second post, adding more material around the edges is always a good idea, not only that it alleviates the need for content-aware fill, but also it should improve the perimeter sharpness by using more data from the central part of the lens. If I find myself in that part of Death Valley in similar conditions, I'll remember examples in this article.
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Looks like nothing's changed now people pay for this content.
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Oh, it has. Briot used to write about Art, and now he's writing tutorials for beginners.
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Oh, it has. Briot used to write about Art, and now he's writing tutorials for beginners.
Well, assuming we get no content this month more suited to my skill level, my dollar this month has been utterly and completely wasted ;)
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The site has a long history of presenting articles that appeal to various levels of experience.
It is not necessary for criticism to be confrontational or personal.
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I quite agree, it's not necessary to be confrontational or personal in criticism. Still, I've been around a while and it was pretty early in the morning so I let the mild personal attacks on me go.
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No problem Andrew. It's pretty much like Jeff explains, I discovered the possibilities of stitching in Lightroom during Jeff's Summit presentations and I decided to write the essay to compare the respective collaging possibilities of Lightroom and Photoshop. The essay is based on my approach to photography and on my workflow.
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;)
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As elementary as the article might be, I still found two tips that were new and valuable to me*: the use of Warp function to correct panoramas and the use of Image Size function to reshape the image. Another plus, it was all done on a quite pleasing image, not something one often encounters in tutorials.
* My goal in life is not to learn everything there is to learn about Photoshop or Lightroom, but to learn enough to do the job, and learn the rest as needed (and if needed). Especially when it comes to "off-label" use of otherwise well-known functions.
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As elementary as the article might be, I still found two tips that were new and valuable to me*: the use of Warp function to correct panoramas and the use of Image Size function to reshape the image. Another plus, it was all done on a quite pleasing image, not something one often encounters in tutorials.
That one was a new idea to me as well. Obvious in retrospect perhaps, but still a new idea to me.
The lesson I take from this is that there are a myriad of solutions to basic photographic and/or processing problems, and even experienced photographers like me (or you, or Alain) may have had a deep dive into one or more solution(s), but there still may be basic - sometimes very basic - options that have never occurred to us. If nothing else, it's another tool or methodology to use when our comfortable and preferred process isn't looking quite right.
So was the article rudimentary? Yeah, probably, but if folks like you, me or Alain Briot learned a new concept in the process, maybe we shouldn't get so concerned if the occasional article is "below" our levels of expertise.
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Seems the criticism in the thread about the article could be easily reversed on the thread itself ... I'm regretting clicking on it now.
I have no problem that not every article has to be at my level, or that multiple articles over time cover similar subjects.
The use of the term collage is probably incorrect (to me a collage is a completely different animal and something i never do) , but then Alain is French so I'll cut him some slack. I knew what he meant.
Regardless of the subject content I personally think that's one terrific image of Badwater, so I'm glad the article was there.
As elementary as the article might be, I still found two tips that were new and valuable to me*: the use of Warp function to correct panoramas
not that it matters but Kevin talked about this in another panorama article (https://luminous-landscape.com/having-fun-with-panoramas/) last year. I've been doing it for a while now (I learned it in a Rodney Lough workshop). Very helpful and seems to give more realistic finished panos sometimes.
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...not that it matters but Kevin talked about this...
Which only goes to prove that repeating certain basic things still makes sense, as not everyone noticed or absorbed everything the first time they encountered it.
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No problem Andrew. It's pretty much like Jeff explains, I discovered the possibilities of stitching in Lightroom during Jeff's Summit presentations and I decided to write the essay to compare the respective collaging possibilities of Lightroom and Photoshop. The essay is based on my approach to photography and on my workflow.
What do you do when you encounter a series that LR/PS refuse to merge?
I tried my hand at doing it manually but something that I don't know how to do is take into account the field of view change and the warping of the image that occurs from camera rotation.
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What do you do when you encounter a series that LR/PS refuse to merge?
I tried my hand at doing it manually but something that I don't know how to do is take into account the field of view change and the warping of the image that occurs from camera rotation.
Hi Dreed,
I approach it on a case by case basis. Just post the problemactic collage here and I'll let you know what I would do to it. It does happen that a serie of captures refuse to be merged and that the image has to be discarded but this is rare.
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What do you do when you encounter a series that LR/PS refuse to merge?
PTGUI to the rescue, and that also uses better interpolation quality for the required warping, and it can do a lot of complicated stuff more effectively. It is also better when the individual shots have Chromatic aberrations.
Cheers,
Bart
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Regardless of the subject content I personally think that's one terrific image of Badwater, so I'm glad the article was there.
The use of the term collage is probably incorrect (to me a collage is a completely different animal and something i never do) , but then Alain is French so I'll cut him some slack. I knew what he meant.
Thank you Wayne. It is a once in a lifetime image.
Regarding my use of 'collage' the word, in French and to me in this context, means 'assembling elements.' This can be done by gluing them together physically, as in Matisse's collages, which is the most widely accepted meaning of the term. However it does not need to be limited to this. My approach is to adapt the use of the word to a digital environment by applying it to the assembly of digital captures. Besides finding this actualization of the word appropriate to my needs, I also find it inspirational because, as I mention in the essay, the use of artistic words leads me to focus my efforts on art while the use of technical words leads me to focus them on technique.
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In part, it's not Alain's fault the piece is a little elementary. There's not much to say. I blame the limited progress of Adobe's Photomerge function over the years. While some improvements are noticeable, it's basically unchanged since it was first introduced. Given the importance of both stitching and focus stacking in today's photographic world, we'd be better served by Adobe if they offered improved performance in these modules. In particular, more user control over the process.
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I do respect the artistic process, Alain, and I know it can be strange. If you wanted to call it catgut, or vodka, so be it. My process includes any number of peculiar rituals.
There is a distinction between the words we use to think with, where we all use a private vocabulary, and words we use to communicate with others. I am happy to stipulate that I didn't understand how you were using the word in your piece. I see now that it is more private vocabulary, to guide internal thought, than it is external.
That clarifies things. Thank you.
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I don't even believe in "levels" for photography. There are too many dimensions to it for 'level' to make sense. There are simply topics about which each of us knows more or less, skills we have a better or worse grasp of. Some of the best photographers have had very narrow knowledge and skill, and some of the worst seem to know everything about everything.
I did use the word "beginner" above, I think, but hesitated. The phrase "newcomer to the use of software for creating panoramas" was clumsy, I was on my phone, and it didn't seem to be an important distinction in context. My bad for contributing to that.
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Bart,
PTGUI to the rescue...
Exactly.
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There is a distinction between the words we use to think with, where we all use a private vocabulary, and words we use to communicate with others. I am happy to stipulate that I didn't understand how you were using the word in your piece. I see now that it is more private vocabulary, to guide internal thought, than it is external.
That clarifies things. Thank you.
Good point. The goal of the essay was to describe how I created this particular piece, but I do see the need for an essay that talks about how I approach art from a personal perspective. The why, not the how. Why I do what I do rather than how I do what I do.
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Is anyone else as baffled as I at Alan's latest?
He written some pretty serious pieces at times, but lately he wants to tell us about his to use basic features of various tools in remarkably unsophisticated, a cynic might even say naive, ways.
I actually found the piece refreshing... meaning that it was nice to see a piece from such an accomplished photographer that goes back to basics, so to speak. At least, it makes me want to try LR photomerge, as for years I have been using Panorama Factory (which is very good), but LR fits seamlessly in my workflow.
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Well I have a great respect for Alain. Regarding the Pano Merge in Lightroom it actually works very well. I feel it is reasonable to test it first as it actually keeps the files in DNG (whatever it now means). If it doesn't work my way I go Autopano Pro.
The HDR merge in Lightroom is really great, far better than anything I tried. Now, I hear someone whispering SNS-HDR, and that is indeed a very good program, but it is Windows only, and I am not the kind of person who walks over the river to find some water. Also, HDR merge in LR is a DNG solution which I appreciate.
I wouldn't think either Pano or HDR merge produces a real raw file, but some kind of linear DNG but I still feel pretty comfortable with the files.
To put it short, I appreciate Simplicity as long as she make a great work.
Best regards
Erik
I think this is really harsh...if you don't like the article, fine, say so. But to attach a demeaning series of descriptions is useless.
Point in fact, it was during this trip that I convinced Alain to try the Pano merge in Lightroom and he was quite surprised at how good it was. So, for him it was a revelation which prompted an enthusiastic article.
BTW, not for nothing but his name ain't Alan...he's French. His name is Alain...kinda another sing of a lack of respect huh?
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...the use of Warp function to correct panoramas and the use of Image Size function to reshape the image,,,
I learned about the first of these from Schewe and/or Reichman somewhere in the (excellent) Camera to Print and Screen video series. I have also found the warp tool useful for correcting distortion in fisheye and ultrawide lenses. Reshaping panos is always tempting because compared to reality they often look excessively long and skinny but there is a price to be paid in sharpness. The Alain Briot article was a good illustration of the use of specialised tools for artistic purposes, because the photograph was interesting in itself rather than just being a vehicle for technical talk. The panorama function in Lightroom usually works very well with limited numbers of images although it gives me occasional random failures to stitch. For anyone bumping up against its limitations, PtGui and AutoPano Pro are both excellent if you can afford them, Hugin is a good open source alternative, and for Windows users Microsoft ICE is, imo, an excellent free program, a bit of a sleeper from Microsoft.
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… doesn't do raw or stitch 16bit TIFFs into a 16bit TIFF panorama.
What makes you think that?
"… ICE can read many of the camera raw formats produced by various digital SLR cameras and other high-end cameras. (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/ice/codecs.htm)"
---- ExifTool ----
ExifTool Version Number : 10.09
---- System ----
…
File Size : 268 MB
…
---- File ----
File Type : TIFF
File Type Extension : tif
MIME Type : image/tiff
…
---- IFD0 ----
Subfile Type : Full-resolution Image
Image Width : 11181
Image Height : 6752
Bits Per Sample : 16 16 16
Compression : LZW
…
Software : Microsoft ICE v2.0.3.0
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My only complaint about ICE is that it doesn't do raw or stitch 16bit TIFFs into a 16bit TIFF panorama. Actually, if it just did 16bit TIFFs properly, I might not even both with stitching in ACR/LR!
Just checked this. It certainly accepts 16 bit TIFFs exported from Lightroom. Don't know how to tell if the resulting pano is also 16 bit. Advice on that welcome - Isaac's post seems relevant but I am not sure how to get the data he shows.
Always worked fine with my Sony, Olympus and Ricoh raw files on Windows 7 - needed to update the codecs (see the link in Isaac's post) to make it work on Windows 10, which it now does, very well.
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fyi ExifTool (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/)
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fyi ExifTool (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/)
Thanks. Great tool. Confirms that my ICE tiff exports are 16 bit.