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Author Topic: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way  (Read 74429 times)

TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2013, 10:13:31 am »

I like the H finder.  The bent edges don't bother me (much).

What is sad is that the Leica S is probably the camera I want, at least its analogue parts.  Its sad because I would never spend that kind of money on a camera again, not when I can't write it off and there are smaller, better, cheaper cameras out there.

I will check out the Oly next time I'm in New York, looks like next month. I also want to look at the Fuji XE2.  I can't get over the color that comes out of the Fujis.  It takes a full 20 minutes to match the raws to the Fuji JPGS.

 



T I think you want something nobody is going to make.  Probably your m9 is the last one.  

The EVF's are getting better, Pansonics evf is great, though not as detailed, everyone else seems to jump around a little.

Really I'm beyond hoping for a step back because I find all ovf's suck, even the biggest which is the H system because it bends the view.

I drone on about it, but the interface of the gh3 is tremendous.  On my right  hand I can set wb, +- corrections, focus points, iso, shutter and f stop, (which at micro 43 should just be set at wide open al the time.)
and never take my eye off the finder all with buttons that are labeled wb, +-, and iso.  

Pretty cool, very fast, I can manually focus, though don't need to because the focus points cover every segment of the screen, the face detection is freaky good, the track focus also very good.

Still, I like pretty stuff, wish olympus would up the file quality, especially in video, do a little better high iso without going painterly and stick with the omd 5 look as that camera feels better built than my m8 and is a lot more usable.

But if I was a walk through the fields guy or a street photographer I'd do the Olympus way before I'd buy the fm digital because it shoots pretty much the same file, the Olympus I think is even a little prettier in tone and color than nikon color for skin tones and the oly is small enough to carry around and the lenses are dead sharp and cheap.

Even that panasonic shown here has a 200 to 600mm 35mm equivalent lens, the Olympus with the 25mm lecia 1.4 is a 50mm equivalent and freaky good.



IMO

BC
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2013, 10:15:38 am »

I have nothiong against EVFs.  The most recent EVF I tried was an X100s.  I hear lots of good things about the Olympus EVF, the new one that is really large.  If I was interested in 4/3 maybe I'd look at it, but I'm not interested in 4/3.  Many people I respect are all about 4/3, including the Cooter.  If I were still working as a shooter I would consider it.  As it stands, I like a larger sensor.


Sony A7/A7r have the same EVF as Olympus E-M1
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TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2013, 10:19:43 am »

Good idea on the Lens Rental.  Thanks for the suggestion.

You are so right on the issue of getting used to the EVF.  When I had the X100, the EVF freaked me out.  I would be looking through the OVF, and would switch to the EVF and suddenly the wold looked digital.  This freaked me out.  The opposite was also true, when I would shoot something close using the EVF for an acurate composition.  If I went back to the OVF the scene looked like crap.  

The Fuji's are jittery, others aren't but your not used to them.  Really every camera has something you have to work around.  It is a brain strain to focus my Contax for a day if I work manually, the leica is ok, but I get tired of the focus in the middle thing and then try to compensate and anything past 50mm is almost impossible.

I guess I could go on because every camera has a workaround.

I'd call lens rentals or borrow lens and rent a system for a week and go shoot.  After the first few days of "what's up", it becomes normal, in fact so normal than when I go from my gh3's to the canon 1dx which has great autofocus I keep changing the exposure and wb thinking I'm going to see it in the viewfinder.

It just takes a while to get use to stuff.

The thing about the em5 is today it cost about 800 bucks and your leica lenses will fit on it and actually work.  The mft 43 oly lenses are fast and cost less than flat tire.

IMO

BC
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bcooter

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #183 on: November 05, 2013, 10:24:08 am »

I might test the sony, because the continuous light samples i've seen of it are not good, or better put, at 800 iso not as good as any camera I use, even an m-8 which is not meant for 800 iso.

Actually, I take that back, sony messes around too much.   I don't know where they're going with anything and don't want to drop 2 grand waiting for lenses, or better video.

T

Not trying to talk you into anything, but you know, I know they're not going to make what you want.

Dumbass thing is they could make a camera that would do both ovf and evf.  Think about it, ovf with a mirror that you take off, clip on an evf for video or when you want it and the mirror just goes up, but that's never going to happen which should because $2,700 for the Nikon ought to be better equipped than a stripped down d4 but this is the same for the $2,100 em-1.   Both kind of cheaped out and Nikon should never have taken the F stop ring off of their lenses.

Then again I have one huge gripe about cameras and that's Canons backwards focus turn.  I'll never ever, ever get use to that.

I can drop a zeiss 50mm on my RED's and track focus from a subject across the street to 3' in front of my lens and not miss, with the Canons my brain just can't get use to it and it takes me three tries.

But with electronics they all can do more.  The gh3's will touch screen track focus like nothing I've ever used, but it's kind of hard to move a camera, touch a screen and focus all at the same time.

Panasonic could plug in a separate tough screen you could hand to any assistant, not a dedicated 500 a day focus guy and say when they get here touch on that face.

Red could make their out of camera files great.  Actually the QT F and H version file that comes out of a RED one is killer compared to the raw, but trying to batch process that file out is an excersize in futility.

They all mess around with us.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 10:32:49 am by bcooter »
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TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2013, 10:25:21 am »

I'm not really interested in anything from Sony.  Too many odd experiences with the company when we used their video cams.  

Sony A7/A7r have the same EVF as Olympus E-M1

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TMARK

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2013, 10:26:35 am »

This is it.  Never again. They always almost deliver then move on to something else, never hitting a home run.


Actually, I take that back, sony messes around too much.   I don't know where they're going with anything and don't want to drop 2 grand waiting for lenses, or better video.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:13:35 am by TMARK »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #186 on: November 05, 2013, 10:31:53 am »

why do you need to do see it more clearly than EVF can provide (specifically when you can zoom in @ focus point)... it can't be for focusing, CDAF w/ CDAF designed lenses does not miss  (unless you are using gigantic focus spots instead of proper small ones) - I am yet to encounter a missed one after 3 years with GH2/GH3 and now E-M1, no matter what is the light or where in the frame I was focusing.

As said strongly backlit high DR situations.
I shot a wedding with an SLT camera, in most situations it was fine (ie inside the Church)
When the sun came through I had to use fill flash outside

You just can't see the subject clearly, because you are using the flash to fill the subject.
I ended up locking focus and looking over the camera to see things properly, that worked ok but it's a limitation of EVF's no question about it

And before someone says "don't shoot in harsh lighting" well tough luck you work on xyz day and that's it, you deal with the lighting as best you can
You just don't get issues like that with an OVF, because it sees as well as your eyes do.

The SLT models are interesting, dare I say useful for some types of shooting, but Sony made a serious mistake by only offering these models...there are times a good OVF just cannot be beaten.
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OldRoy

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #187 on: November 05, 2013, 11:57:49 am »

I'm not. As I said, the analogy soon breaks down
Another frequent by-product of hybridisation is sterility of course.
Roy
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:59:40 am by OldRoy »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #188 on: November 05, 2013, 12:38:44 pm »

You just can't see the subject clearly, because you are using the flash to fill the subject.

actually you can - there are setting available to make dark subjects brighter in EVF and bright background darker... so  if some particular camera does not have that in EVF, it is not (unlike OVF where you can't really see in the dark w/ ambient light or zoom in like EVF can and so on) an inherited feature... and I can flip between setting for EVF at will - do I want to see it B/W or UniWB green tinted or natural color or boost contrast or lower contrast - not a problem...

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Telecaster

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #189 on: November 05, 2013, 01:15:09 pm »

Despite my prior jest about wanting an FTn with a sensor inside, I doubt I'd buy one even if Nikon had the stones to make it. I'm having way too much fun exploring the new things I can do with new technologies. When the pace of change makes my head spin a bit, IMO that's a sign I'm not thinking & adapting quickly enough. That pace will only continue to accelerate regardless...so best to go with the flow rather than get eroded away.

-Dave-
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #190 on: November 05, 2013, 01:56:44 pm »

That camera sounds (and looks) like a bad (retro) joke.

Hulyss

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #191 on: November 05, 2013, 04:30:31 pm »

That camera sounds (and looks) like a bad (retro) joke.

For a retro joke it's a retro joke, for sure.

It's even a regression to fill a niche, despite the sensor.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #192 on: November 05, 2013, 04:43:58 pm »

Lets hope they learn from all the bashing they get and we'll see a true improvement with the next model.
An A7R/X-Pro1 fusion FF mirrorless from Nikon with D800 sensor?
Just dreaming ..

Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Nikon Df and its many locking knobs
« Reply #193 on: November 05, 2013, 04:50:08 pm »

The Df also requires pressing a button along with rotating a dial due to the locks. Maybe it comes down to whether you want the option to adjust settings while looking through the VF (difficult on the Df) or want the option to make them with the rear screen off and eye away from the VF (not possible on most other modern cameras).

Try this vid, no sound but it really speaks louder than words...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgVGSBGAC0A

Buttons not an issue on this cam...
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LKaven

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #194 on: November 05, 2013, 05:13:59 pm »

why do you need to do see it more clearly than EVF can provide (specifically when you can zoom in @ focus point)...

I think it has to do with seeing all there is to see of your subject when committing to the moment of exposure.  The more I see of the subject, the more fully engaged I am.  I don't like to use autofocus at all, because it detracts from the creative act.  Never mind the cases where I can't discern the facial expressions of the portrait subjects.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:27:22 pm by LKaven »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #195 on: November 05, 2013, 05:24:54 pm »

actually you can - there are setting available to make dark subjects brighter in EVF and bright background darker... so  if some particular camera does not have that in EVF, it is not (unlike OVF where you can't really see in the dark w/ ambient light or zoom in like EVF can and so on) an inherited feature... and I can flip between setting for EVF at will - do I want to see it B/W or UniWB green tinted or natural color or boost contrast or lower contrast - not a problem...



Doesn't work least on the Sony's I've used. You can use the spot meter to peer into the shadows, you can reduce the contrast settings and tern off the exposure simulation, but the DR is just not there. I know as I've tried this. So yes it IS a problem and a limitation of the technology. Obviously our eyes have variable exposure and a huge DR, far higher than an EVF does.

Some EVF's also have lag issues (the Sony's are generally not bad bar very very low light levels) Some of the Fuji's have issues here (though they seem to be getting on top of them)

It's not all bad news, they are great for accurate manual focus, and you can see WB errors before you take the shot. On the other hand experienced users will be very familiar with their camera, it's AF performance, WB and metering..and anyone who shoots raw too it's not really WYSIWYG as some make it out to be.

LKaven nailed it with his comments, you need to see/engage with your subject. For this reason whilst I'm ok with EVF for some tasks, it's not a satisfactory solution in some situations. I'm not sure why Sony and some other makers have not field tested their cameras to work this out..it's quite obvious at times.

I'm pretty sure that's why Canikon have not done the EVF thing yet, they obviously know it's not something most of their customers want/need, and/or the technology isn't there yet for it to be satisfactory for most people. High end sports/pros are not going to embrace it either. Maybe they will do EVF some time, but they will tread with great care, and then start at the lower models first. Sony's error was sweeping across their entire range with SLT/EVF, that instantly cut them out of any chance with some users (ie higher end APS-C and FF users/enthusiasts)

« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:28:00 pm by barryfitzgerald »
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LKaven

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #196 on: November 05, 2013, 05:26:09 pm »

People, look at it this way.  This is the baby D4.  If you want a baby D4 for half the price of the D4, this is the only one you're going to get.  As with the D700, it doesn't break any other new technical ground.

In my view, this is how they read the D700 users who refused the D800.  They wanted not just the baby D4; they wanted the old-school feel, a moderate number of pixels, and a focus on still photography.  If it has a good viewfinder and it feels good in the hands, then it works.  

Anyone who wants a baby D4 will get it.  Anyone who wants a retro body will get it.  It will stay in the catalog for quite a while.  Notice that it doesn't have a model NUMBER that would cue one to its lineage.

I don't know why it doesn't have the high-end AF.  But I think either way, this qualifies as a high-end body for anyone's purposes.  We'll see how it feels in practice.  But on paper, it appeals to me more than the body on my D800.  I don't like the feel of that one, at all, and I really don't like the finder on it.  [I do love its images though.]

Telecaster

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #197 on: November 05, 2013, 07:54:27 pm »

I'm pretty sure that's why Canikon have not done the EVF thing yet, they obviously know it's not something most of their customers want/need, and/or the technology isn't there yet for it to be satisfactory for most people.

That might apply to the pro-level bodies used by sports & wildlife photographers. But for their SLR lines overall I don't buy it. I suspect Canikon has simply been caught flat-footed by the onrush of newer tech. Market leaders tend to become complacent. Then they often get dethroned. We'll see whether or not the latter happens in this case, but from where I stand the former has been evident for a couple years now.

-Dave-
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #198 on: November 05, 2013, 08:45:37 pm »

In my view, this is how they read the D700 users who refused the D800.  They wanted not just the baby D4; they wanted the old-school feel
where did you get that users of D700 wantes old-school feel though ? instead of just sticking 16mp sensor and little better AF/frames per second in D700 body ?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #199 on: November 05, 2013, 08:52:54 pm »

Doesn't work least on the Sony's I've used. You can use the spot meter to peer into the shadows, you can reduce the contrast settings and tern off the exposure simulation, but the DR is just not there.
indeed, I am not looking for any details in highlights (clipped or close to clipping) though... neither I am looking for any details in shadows and if I am then my EVF will make sure to present them w/ sufficient brighness - your OVF will not and not even my naked eye can see what I can through EVF in such dark shadows (that is if I have there a subject that I care to watch and expose properly)
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