HMI

[TMARK]

Since you've also lived in both NY and LA you know the differences.

As you know you learn the process, as in any city.  For people that have worked in Miami which is quite small or NY which is quite concentrated, learning LA well and the rules, the permits, the process takes a while and I'll agree there are a lot of hands out, but then again people should be paid for their property and their work, just like photographers want to be paid for their photographs.

BC

Now that I spend most of my time in Virginia I have a new perspective.  I still have a condo in Brooklyn and my partners are in Brooklyn and Manhattan.  I'm up there once a month. I will confess, it makes me crazy after three days in a way that LA doesn't. NYC turns me into Larry David faster than a Curb marathon.  There is no release, like the beach or hiking, or simply enjoying a large empty space alone.  And if our Dodge Sprinter gets another ticket I might start cutting the heads off of parking meters, Cool Hand Luke style.

OK now I want to sell my joint in Brooklyn, sell my place in Richmond and buy a place in Topanga, maybe work on my IATSE 600 membership.

One thing LA has that I really really miss:  Mexican Food.  Real Mexican food.  NYC is getting better, but I need a roach coach surrounded by Mexicans (Red Hook) to get anything really good, and Bloomberg keeps shutting them down.

[pschefz]

Now that I spend most of my time in Virginia I have a new perspective.  I still have a condo in Brooklyn and my partners are in Brooklyn and Manhattan.  I'm up there once a month. I will confess, it makes me crazy after three days in a way that LA doesn't. NYC turns me into Larry David faster than a Curb marathon.  There is no release, like the beach or hiking, or simply enjoying a large empty space alone.  And if our Dodge Sprinter gets another ticket I might start cutting the heads off of parking meters, Cool Hand Luke style.

OK now I want to sell my joint in Brooklyn, sell my place in Richmond and buy a place in Topanga, maybe work on my IATSE 600 membership.

One thing LA has that I really really miss:  Mexican Food.  Real Mexican food.  NYC is getting better, but I need a roach coach surrounded by Mexicans (Red Hook) to get anything really good, and Bloomberg keeps shutting them down.

just what we need in topanga..more photographers and DPs:)....
i lived in manhattan for 8 years....all i can say: the second i turn from PCH onto topanga, it all falls away....no matter what happened that day or how bad the traffic was....

[perbernal]

Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.

stefan

hi Stefan,

Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been looking at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.

I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.

There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.

Best, Per Bernal

[perbernal]

[attachment=20402:k56_pdn_...ch_final.jpg]

hi Stefan,

Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been looking at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.

I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.

There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.

Best, Per Bernal

The image didn´t attach : (

[TMARK]

per,

I balance tungsten with daylight all the time you shouldn't get a blue effect if you use the right gels. A full asortment of gels and a color temp meter give total control, especialy with digital.

I like HMI way better, but usually rent.

T

hi Stefan,

Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been lookinRg at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.

I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.

There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.

Best, Per Bernal

[perbernal]

per,

I balance tungsten with daylight all the time you shouldn't get a blue effect if you use the right gels. A full asortment of gels and a color temp meter give total control, especialy with digital.

I like HMI way better, but usually rent.

T

It´s very true but you´re losing a lot of output from the tungsten light when using daylight filters - appx 2 stops if I´m not wrong. On location you might run into a situation where you are tripping the fuses as a 2000 Watt tungsten turns into a 500-750 Watt light that requires a lot of AMP. Not very practical. With the new video dslr´s and great output at high iso you can get away with a small HMI at an affordable price and that also takes Profoto modifiers. Just felt it was of importance to point out that there are alternatives to HMI´s from  Dedolight, Arri, Broncolor Kobolt etc. Check with any grip or gaffer on the west coast and you´ll find that the K5600´s comes highly recommended.

Per

[TMARK]

Per,

You can also gel the windows with some CTO.  Throw a 3/4 orange on the windows and BOOM, color balance. Also, when gelling lights for DV, the DV cams are so much more sensative than film, that you may only need a 750.

Don't get me wrong, anything that makes for less grip work is a huge plus.  Anything that won't burn the skin off your forarms, and anything that doesn't make the talent sweat in a small room, in the summer, when the AC is turned off because of the risk of overload, well, that is a HUGE plus!  I think for photographers coming to motion, the HMI's with a Profoto adapter, like the K5600, will be the easiest thing to use.  There is less of a grip tradition in stills, so the less grip work the better!  

It´s very true but you´re losing a lot of output from the tungsten light when using daylight filters - appx 2 stops if I´m not wrong. On location you might run into a situation where you are tripping the fuses as a 2000 Watt tungsten turns into a 500-750 Watt light that requires a lot of AMP. Not very practical. With the new video dslr´s and great output at high iso you can get away with a small HMI at an affordable price and that also takes Profoto modifiers. Just felt it was of importance to point out that there are alternatives to HMI´s from  Dedolight, Arri, Broncolor Kobolt etc. Check with any grip or gaffer on the west coast and you´ll find that the K5600´s comes highly recommended.

Per

[gwhitf]

I bought one of these a few years ago, and wish I'd bought ten of them. I run the 500's in it to keep the head down, and reduce the breaker issue. Takes all the accessories of the stills heads. Just be aware of heat. They fly well. Bulbs easy to find. Now, if Profoto will only see the surge in DSLR video, and pay someone to design a 5500 bulb for it, and then re-introduce them. But of course, they'll be triple the original price, if they did:

http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=deta...mp;sku=PP701050

You can see how old they are by noting which digital backs they're compatible with: "the newest Dicomed".

[bcooter]

I bought one of these a few years ago, and wish I'd bought ten of them. I run the 500's in it to keep the head down, and reduce the breaker issue. Takes all the accessories of the stills heads. Just be aware of heat. They fly well. Bulbs easy to find. Now, if Profoto will only see the surge in DSLR video, and pay someone to design a 5500 bulb for it, and then re-introduce them. But of course, they'll be triple the original price, if they did:

http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=deta...mp;sku=PP701050

You can see how old they are by noting which digital backs they're compatible with: "the newest Dicomed".

I agree, I tried to buy a bunch of these but never could find them, except used and somewhat beat up.

Though I think the biggest issue is the noise of the fans when running sound.

If you run 10 I guess they are noticeable and I guess there is a reason an Arri 1k is the size of a toyota prius.

Still, you'd think at this point profoto would reintroduce their hmi's.

I know of one place I can rent the HMI's in NY , (and I've tried to buy their set for two years), but they make life very easy for stills/video as long as you don't have to freeze someone jumping in the air.

BC

[BJNY]

How about these HMI HID lights?

[TMARK]

How about these HMI HID lights?

Where is the rub?  They look great but why so cheap?  I am now investigating . . .

[BJNY]

TMARK,

HID made me recall Academic Imaging's Buhl lights
http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north...copy-light.html

Billy

[gwhitf]

If this is the pattern of the future, there is going to be a real demand for low-cost, portable, 5500 continuous sources.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/...hoot-look-like/

Ugg, what a mess. This is "portable video"?

[TMARK]

TMARK,

HID made me recall Academic Imaging's Buhl lights
http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north...copy-light.html

Billy

I always thought the North Lights were flourescents.  Interesting.

[TMARK]

If this is the pattern of the future, there is going to be a real demand for low-cost, portable, 5500 continuous sources.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/...hoot-look-like/

Ugg, what a mess. This is "portable video"?

They are trying to make the DSLRs a poor man's Red, which defeats the purpose of a 5D sized cam, to a degree.  I see no advantage of the 5D2 over a Sony EX1 for low budget HD video.
Its kind of a novelty that is producing lots and lots and lots of horrible reels, and may be a few really really really good ones.

Edit:  Out of respect for Vincent I decided to remove my rant about flood gates and motion.

[bcooter]

Where is the rub?  They look great but why so cheap?  I am now investigating . . .

I'm skeptical of these lights since it takes three bulbs for any kind of power, though I also question the power of HMI's in general.

I rent 2.5k Arri Fresnels all the time and running two or three usually soft bounced into either book ends or through a 4x or 12x rag and using a medium format back at 200 iso puts it right on the limit, like 1/60th at 5.6, where as with a dslr I can bump it too 640 and hold it.

Sill I don't really believe that HMI's produce 2x 3x the power of tungsten, as I've used both in the same setting and at the close to the same wattage didn't see much difference.

Also if working in a blacked out studio or location without window lights, I like the look of tungsten vs. HMI.  New hmI bulbs are very blue and i find difficult for skin tones and though everyone says tungsten destroys the blue channel I've yet to see it do anything but look pretty, so I don't know.

These were shot with the 1ds3, not a lot of movement, obviously, but still shot at a fairly high iso and quick enough shutter and dof to work with a 1k.   The top image was a fresnel, with a little bit of spun, the bottom was diffused through a box and flagged.
[attachment=20497:tungsten1k.jpg]


The earlier Canons had a difficult time going to a low enough Kelvin, not to have a lot of orange to the file, where the p30+ was beautiful with tungsten, though now the 1ds3 goes to tungsten quite easily.

Still, I'd like to see how these hid lights work, because the price looks good, I just wonder at this price if they are really usable and will work long term.

Personally, I don't think any of these smaller hot lights work well with people that are moving at any moderate speed, unless you use a Nikon at 1000 iso and then it's iffy.

I would like to see higher pixel cameras with higher iso and moderate powered (and priced) continuous lights that would work both with stills and motion.

We'll see.

BC

[TMARK]

I love tungsten for skin tones.  Head and shoulders at 1.8 with the 85 1.2 and an Arri 750 Fresnel, iso 400-640-800, with some light tough spun as difussion (not the frost), is nice.  Gets the shutter up above 80 - 180 or so.  

I don't know about those HID lights.  I usually don't trust lighting gear if I haven't seen them being loaded into grip trucks by guys with mulets who live in Palmdale and drive Toyota pick-ups with "YO" on the back.  By that I mean grips.  

h

I'm skeptical of these lights since it takes three bulbs for any kind of power, though I also question the power of HMI's in general.

I rent 2.5k Arri Fresnels all the time and running two or three usually soft bounced into either book ends or through a 4x or 12x rag and using a medium format back at 200 iso puts it right on the limit, like 1/60th at 5.6, where as with a dslr I can bump it too 640 and hold it.

Sill I don't really believe that HMI's produce 2x 3x the power of tungsten, as I've used both in the same setting and at the close to the same wattage didn't see much difference.

Also if working in a blacked out studio or location without window lights, I like the look of tungsten vs. HMI.  New hmI bulbs are very blue and i find difficult for skin tones and though everyone says tungsten destroys the blue channel I've yet to see it do anything but look pretty, so I don't know.

These were shot with the 1ds3, not a lot of movement, obviously, but still shot at a fairly high iso and quick enough shutter and dof to work with a 1k.   The top image was a fresnel, with a little bit of spun, the bottom was diffused through a box and flagged.
[attachment=20497:tungsten1k.jpg]


The earlier Canons had a difficult time going to a low enough Kelvin, not to have a lot of orange to the file, where the p30+ was beautiful with tungsten, though now the 1ds3 goes to tungsten quite easily.

Still, I'd like to see how these hid lights work, because the price looks good, I just wonder at this price if they are really usable and will work long term.

Personally, I don't think any of these smaller hot lights work well with people that are moving at any moderate speed, unless you use a Nikon at 1000 iso and then it's iffy.

I would like to see higher pixel cameras with higher iso and moderate powered (and priced) continuous lights that would work both with stills and motion.

We'll see.

BC

[pschefz]

They are trying to make the DSLRs a poor man's Red, which defeats the purpose of a 5D sized cam, to a degree.  I see no advantage of the 5D2 over a Sony EX1 for low budget HD video.
Its kind of a novelty that is producing lots and lots and lots of horrible reels, and may be a few really really really good ones.

Edit:  Out of respect for Vincent I decided to remove my rant about flood gates and motion.

i read your rant and as much as i understand what you are saying, i don't think it is fair to blame him for any of it...the T/S thing is annoying....he is just the guy who came at the right time and did the right thing with the right tool...
here is a good interview with him....he makes a lot of sense....

[TMARK]

i read your rant and as much as i understand what you are saying, i don't think it is fair to blame him for any of it...the T/S thing is annoying....he is just the guy who came at the right time and did the right thing with the right tool...
here is a good interview with him....he makes a lot of sense....

I agree with you, I do.  From what I've heard he is a standup guy, as well.  My rant was really against the hype, not the man or his work, which is why I took it down.

I'll try not to post after being up all night in an edit suite!

[pschefz]

I agree with you, I do.  From what I've heard he is a standup guy, as well.  My rant was really against the hype, not the man or his work, which is why I took it down.

I'll try not to post after being up all night in an edit suite!

if you post a disclaimer before a rant it's not really a rant anyway....

i am getting a little bored with the red hype...i am probably wrong and ignorant, but i haven't seen anything really revolutionary out of that either...yes, i have seen some amazing stuff....but i have seen some amazing stuff from the canons as well....i am just wondering when all the big announcements will be products...i was so excited about someone at least planing on producing a big sensor camera...afaik not even the full frame 35mm is shipping.....just wondering when they will actually deliver....

i was surprised to read that vincent can keep the production costs with canon to 1/2 or 1/3 compared to red.....that is huge....