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Author Topic: HMI  (Read 34503 times)

geesbert

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« on: February 16, 2010, 07:15:36 am »

nearly all of my commercial work involves flashes, but recently I got more and more interested in shooting with constant light sources. last week I rented a pair of Dedolight daylight HMIs, which are really nice to work with, with a light color spectrum in a working range easier to work with than with tungsten lights. bit a 3500€ a pop they are quite pricey, what other options are there in the 400W range, and I like them to be portable and maybe fresnel based? Arri springs to mind, but not really a cheaper option...


stefan
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BJNY

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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 08:25:29 am »

I attended a demo of Bron's Kobold products recently,

and liked how compact their 400 is.
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Guillermo

K.C.

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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 08:39:40 am »

Quote from: BJNY
I attended a demo of Bron's Kobold products recently,

and liked how compact their 400 is.

Yes, nice lights. But they're sold by Bron, that means they're over priced in every market.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6155..._Open_Face.html
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mattlap2

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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 11:20:25 am »

Quote from: K.C.
Yes, nice lights. But they're sold by Bron, that means they're over priced in every market.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6155..._Open_Face.html

Not only are they sold by Bron, but they are made by Bron.  The parent corporation of Broncolor is Bron Kobold.  The unit is very high quality (as expected).

Price comparison is a bit more difficult as the LTM market space is opening up new options.  It used to be a domain of the film industry and some photographers that had film experience.  It took a strong grip mentality to be able to control the light.

Now a new channel is opening up and lights are coming to market that take existing photographic light modifiers.  The Kobold units take many Broncolor light modifers.   They also are smaller and have more compact electronic ballasts.

I personally also like the K5600 Joker Units.   http://www.k5600.com/products/jb400/index.html   A little less expensive than the Kobold (not much) but take both Profoto and Broncolor light modifiers via adapters
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UlfKrentz

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 11:37:14 am »

Quote from: geesbert
nearly all of my commercial work involves flashes, but recently I got more and more interested in shooting with constant light sources. last week I rented a pair of Dedolight daylight HMIs, which are really nice to work with, with a light color spectrum in a working range easier to work with than with tungsten lights. bit a 3500€ a pop they are quite pricey, what other options are there in the 400W range, and I like them to be portable and maybe fresnel based? Arri springs to mind, but not really a cheaper option...


stefan


Hi Stefan,

won´t be cheap as well, but take a deeper look at Briese. They offer an adaptor to use the HMI Light modifiers with the flash units as well. This way you will get a lot of variety. They can be moved around very easy, very light, small and fold up in a few seconds - great lighting. If you like the small fresnels...stay with the Dedos.

@K.C. If you think Bron lighting is overprized be prepared for a heavy sticker shock. (BTW, if you like quality and durability, you will have to pay for it and good equipment saves you a lot of (expensive) production time during the job and for many years. Just my 2ct)

As already mentioned Broncolor offers some HMI stuff as well.
Stefan, you are located in Germany, why don´t ask for a free demonstration?

Cheers, Ulf

AlDoori

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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 12:58:57 pm »

the broncolor HMI system is quite good, but it seems that it is not well known.
it is not even listed on bronimaging.de.
it uses a 575/8oo bron/kobold ballast http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?se...;x1=7&x2=28
and a bron pulso head with a 575 or 800 HMI tube.
if you have bron flash equipment, you can use most of the light shapeners for the HMI.

briese offers a similar system up to 25oo w.
Quote

broncolor HMI F575.800
Article no. 42.104.00
Lamp base with shockproof Noryl-housing and hand grip.
Bayonet adapter with automatic locking device for diverse broncolor light shapers.
Suitable for operation with hot restrike (HR). Equipped with a secure socket for single-ended HMI/MSR lamp.
The lamp base can be equipped with 575W respectively 800 W lamps.
http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596
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mattlap2

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 01:46:30 pm »

Quote from: AlDoori
the broncolor HMI system is quite good, but it seems that it is not well known.
it is not even listed on bronimaging.de.
it uses a 575/8oo bron/kobold ballast http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?se...;x1=7&x2=28
and a bron pulso head with a 575 or 800 HMI tube.
if you have bron flash equipment, you can use most of the light shapeners for the HMI.

briese offers a similar system up to 25oo w.

That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.    

The new units info can be found here ....   http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038
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UlfKrentz

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 02:10:08 pm »

Quote from: mattlap2
That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.    

The new units info can be found here ....   http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038

Hi mattlap2,

this HMI lampbase can be found in the 2009/2010 system catalogue: Lampbase: HMI F575.800 / 42.104.00 fitting ballast HMI 575.800 / 41.102.XX
(Page 52, german edition) and it is also listed in the 2009 pricelist. It is also listed on the web http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596 you better don´t refer to the german site. I cannot see a hint that it should be discontinued. From where did you get that information?
Broncolor HMI lighting is indeed not very well known, but it´s worth a look.
Bron Kobold is originally focussing on a different type of user but they have small fresnels that might be interesting, too.

Cheers, Ulf
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 02:18:05 pm by UlfKrentz »
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marcel b

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 02:13:58 pm »

hi stefan,
I would propose to contact one of the loads of lighting rentals in your area (schmiedle, arri, brunner & eisenreich,...) , have a look at what's available (beside Arri you got LTM, Desisti, mole richardson,...) and think about buying stuff, some things are really cheap or moderate to rent.
here's a german link collection to many movie related producers and rental houses: http://www.msteffl.de/

best regards,
marcel
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bcooter

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 02:32:58 pm »

Quote from: mattlap2
That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.    

The new units info can be found here ....   http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038

The older Broncolors are fine, though a little sensitive and fragile.  If the globe is not exactly in the right spot they won't strike.  The upside is they will take most Broncolor modifiers, the downside is 575 watts is on the bare minimum with any diffusion for stills, even with a dslr, with medium format they are below the minimum.

I use a lot of continuous and flash, especially for projects that are mixed still and video.  In fact that seems to be the norm to shoot both, even if it's with a separate crew and to do ti right and don't want to use flash, you really need 1000 watts of continuous for stills (that is if you use modifiers) , and you can get by with less for video, especially the 5d2 as on the video setting 2000 iso doesn't seems to change anything.

With so much emphasis put on video now, I am at a loss to understand why profoto and some of the other still light makers doesn't have a full range of hmis and tungsten.  Profoto did but they discontinued them.  

Our current project requires both video and stills, and the quality and sharpness of flash works well for the stills, and unless you have some very powerful modeling lights, shooting video on the same set requires two sets of lights.  This can be a real pain.

Regardless HMI's are bloody expensive and unless your shooting almost daily it's cheaper to rent and if you fly, moving hmi arri's are expensive, so you much better off renting.  One other upside to the brons is they are the same size as flash and move easily.

Probably the only thing that would move me to a large equipment purchase now would be if profoto came out with a 1000, to 800 watt hmi head and ballast.  

I like continuous use it a lot even tungsten and never see any problem with the file breaking up with tungsten.

This screen grab straight out of a 5d2
[attachment=20302:screengrab.jpg]
(will go through a lot of post as the creative brief calls for a moving city scene behind the model and flashing into the reflection of the glass) was shot with tungsten as a key, an hmi and daylight as a back light.

Same with this screen grab from the still session shot with a 1ds3, which was shot tungsten as key, window light (daylight in the background) obviously with a retouched skyline.
[attachment=20303:screengrab2.jpg]
So, if your shooting in blacked out spaces and don't have to use daylight/window light for fill or background tungsten is pennies on the dollar compared to HMI's and work quite well.

BC

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NBP

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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 05:12:01 am »

I use HMI an awful lot for the food work I do. Love them. Really great source.

I have 2 x 575W Arri heads which I bought quite cheaply from a rental company about 8/9 yrs ago (so they must be at least 15 years old now, if not more)  & I have honestly never had to change a bulb in the whole time I've had them & the temp is still, remarkably, within 2 - 300k of what it was originally. The Arri's, probably due to their film industry heritige, are built like tanks too - they really are solid workhorses.
Only down side is they are a bit of a pain in the arse to lug around (the ballasts on mine are the old school blocks that weigh a bloody ton). I'd never fly with them for example.

Most good rentals, both photo & TV & Film, will have them & they are pretty reasonable day rates usually.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 05:13:54 am by NBP »
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design_freak

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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 06:49:29 am »

Try Briese HMI light. It's expensive but in my opinion best light ever made. You must try it. One word - Posh :-)
www.briese-lighttechnik.de
You must try the following lights modifiers:
Focus 77,100, 180
Sun
Downlight

Electronic ballast form 1200 - 4k


Best regards,
Design Freak
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DF

gwhitf

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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 10:08:29 am »

I bought a new k5600 Joker 400 a few years ago. New, about $5k. Nice unit I guess. Accepted speedrings. I never got my head around it though, for travel, or location work. There seemed to be about five or six parts that had to be assembled, and it seemed to take forever to get it together. The ballast box seemed a tad delicate for travel; I had to send it back once, for overhaul. And it came in this old-school anvil case, which was nice for grip truck, but not nice for airplane checking. Was heavy to drag around. Plus, in actual real world jobs, it always fell into this weird category of being "not enough light for actual usability" so it stayed in the truck a lot. Had an odd CT, compared to Profoto flash too, when mixing. Of course, if I was video only, I'd probably feel differently about it, but with stills, it always seemed easier to use the Acute2's, or the 7b -- out of the case, and on the stand in no time. In the end, I sold the HMI to my local grip house. I've never missed it since.
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geesbert

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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 04:17:03 pm »

Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.

stefan
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gwhitf

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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 05:04:15 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.

Honestly, it just makes you wonder: "We can put a man on the moon, but we can't make a powerful light bulb that won't blow a residential circuit, that's 5500 degrees, instead of 3200?"

Five thousand dollars, in order to get a blue light bulb?

With all this 5D2 video stuff getting popular, you just KNOW that someone is going to realize that they can make a profit if they create a blue light bulb. I just think that HMI is ready to soon be a thing of the past. Kinda like a $45000 digital back.

Yeah, I certainly would wait. There is much better ROI in other aspects of the business. If you need it, then rent it and bill it.


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lisa_r

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 06:22:24 pm »

Has anyone been using those florescent bulbs? There seem to be cheap as hell, and the right color temperature. The dudes at Calumet said they have been selling TONS for use with DSLRs for still photography. Not sure how they are working out for video though...
When I have tested the kits with the florescent bulbs, the camera's white balance does a great job, the quality of the light looks very good, and the cost of a kit with two scoop-type heads with diffusion, two bulbs, stands, etc is around $350.

They are far brighter than tungsten (and some heads allow multiple bulbs) , 5500 color temp, cheap, last ages, no flicker, etc...

Just a thought.
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LiamStrain

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 07:27:32 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Has anyone been using those florescent bulbs? There seem to be cheap as hell, and the right color temperature. The dudes at Calumet said they have been selling TONS for use with DSLRs for still photography. Not sure how they are working out for video though...
When I have tested the kits with the florescent bulbs, the camera's white balance does a great job, the quality of the light looks very good, and the cost of a kit with two scoop-type heads with diffusion, two bulbs, stands, etc is around $350.

They are far brighter than tungsten (and some heads allow multiple bulbs) , 5500 color temp, cheap, last ages, no flicker, etc...

Just a thought.

The last ones I used (albeit a few years ago - some rental kinoflo's) still had flicker/ballast problems, and spectrum spikes. I found it was still having to add the +5M filter and hope for the best. Wasn't worth it for the way I shot.

I don't know if they have improved. For my part, I'm comfortable using strobes and regular hotlights.

pschefz

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 07:28:47 pm »

there are also the lite panels.....led panels...the latest versions are VERY nice....
good output....built in dimmer, built in COLOR TEMP dial!!!! and....snap on a battery and use on the beach.....
put 4 in a available mount and you have a portable, dimmable "window" where ever you go.....and just dial in the colortemp on the back......
also very light and only an inch or so deep....
i wasn't too impressed with the first gen of these...but these are really nice.....
i am not sure but you might even be able to dial in the spread (i might be wrong on that....maybe they just have different versions...)
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lisa_r

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 08:25:04 pm »

Liam, the new ones are WAY better than the older ones.

Schefz: how much do these panels cost? I just glanced at Adorama and the LED panels on the first page there are between $4000 and $20,000!

http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default....anel%20lighting
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pschefz

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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 08:52:58 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Liam, the new ones are WAY better than the older ones.

Schefz: how much do these panels cost? I just glanced at Adorama and the LED panels on the first page there are between $4000 and $20,000!

http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default....anel%20lighting


the ones i am talking about are Litepanels (that is the brand) not cheap but i believe a 1x1ft panel is between 1500 and 2500....depending on features...there are a lot of sizes and accessories....the smaller ones are all over the place in TV/movie production...you can put them anywhere and they operate on batteries as well.....
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