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Author Topic: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing  (Read 9125 times)

hubell

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Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« on: April 07, 2022, 02:41:42 pm »

My NEC PA322UHD 4k 31" monitor needs to be replaced. I would be interested to hear from anyone who uses (or considered using) the Apple XDR Pro Display for editing photographs for print. Putting aside the price, how would it compare with the Eizo CG 319X and the NEC PA311D, two 4k 30" monitors? I have not found any reviews online that address this issue in a thoughtful way. From what I have read, while it is not easy to calibrate and profile the XDR monitor, Apple claims that it does not need to be calibrated. Apple claims it is "perfectly" calibrated from the factory, and stays that way. It also appears to be possible to set the color space, the brightness, and the white point so that the monitor is properly configured for a soft proofing and printing workflow.
Thanks.

digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2022, 02:52:42 pm »

Putting aside the price, how would it compare with the Eizo CG 319X and the NEC PA311D, two 4k 30" monitors?
It's not a "smart" display system where calibration takes place in the panel, you can build as many calibration targets as you wish and load them on the fly for soft proofing. So there's that.  ;)
It may be 'perfectly' calibrated at the factory to say DCI-P3 or anything else, but is that the calibration you need or want? If not, it's far from 'perfect'.
Plus, how long does the display remain 'perfectly' calibrated?
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hubell

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2022, 06:13:13 pm »

It's not a "smart" display system where calibration takes place in the panel, you can build as many calibration targets as you wish and load them on the fly for soft proofing. So there's that.  ;)
It may be 'perfectly' calibrated at the factory to say DCI-P3 or anything else, but is that the calibration you need or want? If not, it's far from 'perfect'.
Plus, how long does the display remain 'perfectly' calibrated?

I think I could build a custom preset similar to the one I use for my NEC monitor that would be based upon the full color gamut of the display, P65 white point, 2.2 gamma curve, and a brightness of 120.  So, the "perfect calibration" of the Apple XDR monitor would not permit those settings to be accurately set and included in a monitor profile?
I gather from your comments that you are not a big fan of the XDR display for the use case I described.
Thanks for your input, as always.

kers

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2022, 04:24:56 am »

diglloyd did not like it... something about the image changing with the angle of view
he likes best his 1600x2560 nec...also my prevered size, but not made anymore.
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hubell

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2022, 11:22:36 am »

diglloyd did not like it... something about the image changing with the angle of view
he likes best his 1600x2560 nec...also my prevered size, but not made anymore.

He doesn't like anything, but his principal issue seemed to be that the color balance was inconsistent for off axis viewing.

digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2022, 12:29:26 pm »

I think I could build a custom preset similar to the one I use for my NEC monitor that would be based upon the full color gamut of the display, P65 white point, 2.2 gamma curve, and a brightness of 120.  So, the "perfect calibration" of the Apple XDR monitor would not permit those settings to be accurately set and included in a monitor profile?
I don't understand what you propose.
With a Smart Display system, the calibration takes place in the panel hardware whereby, you ask for a calibration target you've made (and it needs to be up to date), and that is then conducted in the panel while the associated ICC profile is loaded. You see this update in SpectraView as you toggle from preset to preset.
You could recalibrate using another product for the Apple display and build a new profile every time; kind of a drag.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2022, 01:30:22 pm »

I don't understand what you propose.
With a Smart Display system, the calibration takes place in the panel hardware whereby, you ask for a calibration target you've made (and it needs to be up to date), and that is then conducted in the panel while the associated ICC profile is loaded. You see this update in SpectraView as you toggle from preset to preset.
You could recalibrate using another product for the Apple display and build a new profile every time; kind of a drag.

I don't understand what you mean by "Smart Display". Are you taking about software which changes the display output to match the target values you choose based on a previous calibration made either at the factory or by the user? NEC, Eizo, and Apple all have software and firmware, in specific display models, to calculate and control transformations to different target values based on a previously made calibration.

I don't understand what you mean by "calibration takes place in the panel hardware". I understand calibration taking place when you measure light emitted thru the panel hardware to your eye or a measuring device.

I don't understand what you mean by "a calibration target you've made (and it needs to be up to date)". Isn't "a calibration target" just an aim point? I understand why a calibration needs to be needs to be up-to-date, but how would a target change over time?

There's much that I don't understand... but I'm willing to learn.
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digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2022, 01:43:02 pm »

I don't understand what you mean by "Smart Display".
Sorry, certainly not an industry-wide, accepted term but one that's been around since at least the Sony Artisan days.
Display electronics and software that allows one to produce multiple calibration targets (and yes, you do need to use an instrument ideally to get them), whereby you can load all this into the panel on the fly and swap the appropriate ICC profile, done high bit (Hardware calibration LUT).
One could produce settings A and settings B for say i1Profiler. One could toggle between the two by conducting either (in this case 12 minutes) process to calibrate and produce a profile for each. With the "Smart Display" this is done on the fly, in seconds.
Best described in the SpectraView manual and the part about Multiple Calibration sets is part of the 'smarts":

Quote
The SpectraView system uses a color sensor to take color measurements of the display screen during calibration. The software analyzes these measurements and sends color adjustment commands directly to the display monitor. This means that color adjustments are made in the monitor rather than in the video graphics adapter, resulting in full use of the number of colors available on the graphics adapter and a much brighter image with the maximum possible color gamut. With SpectraView, the video graphics adapter is not used at all to make any gamma or Tone Response Curve corrections to the display, so the full color resolution and fidelity of the system is maintained.
Main Features and benefits
SpectraView provides the following features and benefits:
• Automatic calibration - SpectraView communicates with the display monitors using Display Data Channel - Command Interface (DDC/CI) which is a two-way communications link between the video
graphics adapter and display monitor using the normal video signal cable. No extra cables are necessary. All adjustments to the monitor settings are done automatically using this communications link. A USB connection between the host PC and display can also be used on MultiSync PA Series models only. It is not necessary to manually configure the monitor as all of the necessary settings are made by the software.
• High bit depth internal Look Up Tables (LUTs) - each LCD display monitor supported by SpectraView II features three internal 10, 12 or 14 bit LUTs (depending on the model). These tables allow very precise adjustments to be made to the display’s Tone Response Curve without reducing the number of displayable colors or introducing color banding artifacts.
• Multiple Calibration Sets - Different display monitor calibrations can be instantly loaded allowing quick and easy switching between different calibration settings without the need to re-calibrate the display. Each time a calibration set is loaded, the necessary monitor settings and ICC/ColorSync profiles are automatically updated
.
With respect to your question about targets:
Quote
About Targets
SpectraView can also create custom Targets, which can then be exchanged with other SpectraView display users, providing identical calibrated displays.
A Target consists of up to five specifications that describe the color characteristics of the display:
• Gamma or Tone Response Curve (TRC) • White Point
• Intensity
• Contrast Ratio
• Color Gamut
The target can be one you create and share or a preset target supplied in the software. Click on one, boom, it is loaded and used and the associated profile is then 'found' and loaded into the system for ICC aware applications. And yes, calibration with an instrument must be conducted to do this.
And yes, many displays claim DDC but it's often very wonky (non technical term for, it often doesn't work well or at all). It does work fully with this kind of display system.
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digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2022, 03:08:25 pm »

It may have been Karl Lang who came up with the "Smart Display/Monitor" term; I'll have to ask him. Knowing Karl well, he'll likely say yes even if we've both forgotten.  ;D
I suppose inventing ColorMatch RGB was just the start with this <g>.
Anyway, two other authors (Fraser and Martin) use the term which I found in both of their books and sucked this off the Google machine:
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2022, 03:36:27 pm »

The good old days of CRT monitors. I owned LaCie electronblue monitors and the Sony Artisan was my last CRT—thanks Karl for a wonderful display! In a corporate environment, we had one Barco Reference Calibrator V monitor, but it wasn't assigned to me and I rarely got a chance to drive it.

Barco, unfortunately, withdrew from the graphics display market; but they go head to head with Eizo competing in the high end medical diagnostic monitor market.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2022, 03:50:16 pm »

Sorry, certainly not an industry-wide, accepted term...

Thanks, got it. Just wanted to know what you meant by these terms.

NEC, Eizo, and Apple all have software and firmware, in specific display models, to calculate and control transformations to different target values based on a previously made calibration. The NEC PA311D, Eizo CG319X, or Apple Pro Display XDR, for example, can all do this out of the box using the factory calibration as the reference.

Apple refers to this as a "display reference mode" or "custom refernce mode". Eizo uses ColorNavigator's "color mode" panel selections. NEC uses their "SpectraView Engine" and MultiProfiler's "picture mode" panel selections. These "modes" may be either factory presets or customized by the user.

The interfaces and features vary, but the underlying concept is the same. Rather than repeatedly measuring to calibrate each set of targeted values to create different user selectable "modes", one reference calibration (either factory or user measured) is used by software and firmware which calculates and controls the neccessary adjustments to the electronics in the display for all of the user selectable preset or custom color modes.

The NEC and Eizo are definitely designed to be much easier for the user to supply the measured calibration used for reference. Apple's calibration software requires one of a handful of expensive spectroradiometers for measurement.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 06:26:46 pm by TechTalk »
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digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2022, 04:03:32 pm »

Had a Barco V as well, fortunately, I didn't have to pay for it.  ;) The 25 (?) quadrant purity adjustment at the time, was super cool.
But prior to that, both a Radius Press View 17 and later 21, again thanks to Karl.
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TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2022, 04:52:14 pm »

He doesn't like anything, but his principal issue seemed to be that the color balance was inconsistent for off axis viewing.

I gave up on reading "diglloyd" long ago due to his habit of jumping to conclusions based on scant information or investigation. Sometimes he was correct in the conclusions he jumped to and other times... not so much.

This detailed review of the Apple XDR Pro Display, from a professional calibrator in the U.K, provides display measurements and performance. The reviewer measures and shows the off-axis viewing changes and discusses other uniformity issues. Some of the issues he discusses are simply the nature of using full-array local dimming technology to display HDR content rather than say OLED or dual-layer LCD technology which controls pixel brightness individually, rather than as groups or zones, to achieve the deep black needed for HDR.

https://www.youtube.com/Apple Pro Display XDR Review

Off-axis viewing issues are also discussed in this review...

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21161487/apple-mac-pro-display-xdr-review-6k-lcd-screen-price-features
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hubell

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2022, 05:17:14 pm »

So, let me circle back to my question. When I have calibrated/profiled my NEC PA322UHD monitor, the only settings I have selected in the Spectraview software as my "Target Settings" are (1) "Photo Editing Target", (2) WP of D65, (3) Gamma of 2.2, (4) Intensity of 120, Contrast Ratio of Monitor Default (which is the maximum contrast ratio of the monitor) and (5) Color Gamut of Native. Is it possible to create a "custom reference mode" for an Apple XDR display that will "use" these same (or similar) settings so that the monitor can be used effectively for evaluating photo edits and producing as accurate a screen to print match as I get with the NEC monitor?

TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2022, 06:43:19 pm »

So, let me circle back to my question. When I have calibrated/profiled my NEC PA322UHD monitor, the only settings I have selected in the Spectraview software as my "Target Settings" are (1) "Photo Editing Target", (2) WP of D65, (3) Gamma of 2.2, (4) Intensity of 120, Contrast Ratio of Monitor Default (which is the maximum contrast ratio of the monitor) and (5) Color Gamut of Native. Is it possible to create a "custom reference mode" for an Apple XDR display that will "use" these same (or similar) settings so that the monitor can be used effectively for evaluating photo edits...

Kinda sort of... 1) You can name a custom reference mode.  2) You can select D65 as your white point (or DCI, D50 , or "Custom: Use the x and y fields to specify a custom white point."  3) Under "SDR (Standard Dynamic Range) Transfer Function" › "Pure Power", you can "Enter an exponent to define a pure power gamma function" of 2.2.  4) Under "Fine Tune Calibration", you can enter a target luminance value and measured luminance value into boxes along with target and measured white point x/y values. Frankly, I'm not sure if you have to fill-in all of the boxes or whether you can partially fill-in the data. Its shown in this link for the Studio Display. User friendly it's not!  4—continued) Regarding your question about contrast ratio settings, I don't see where Apple offers the user any control over contrast ratio.  5) Again, I don't see any option for native color gamut to be set by the user. There are color gamut custom options of: P3, Rec.709/sRGB, EBU/PAL, and SMPTE-C/NTSC. I'm assuming that Apple considers the P3 setting native, but can't be sure.

You can create a "custom reference mode", but Apple sets the options available to the user and some settings either don't exist or are clearly not very user friendly to change.

...and producing as accurate a screen to print match as I get with the NEC monitor?

That's a great question, but I'm not sure anyone has an answer for it. The Pro Display XDR is clearly targeted toward video editing and HDR content viewing. It doesn't have the Adobe RGB gamut coverage of either the NEC or Eizo monitors that you've mentioned, but should come reasonably close. Like most Apple products, it's really designed for them to be the ones primarily in control of the driving and for you to enjoy the ride.
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hubell

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2022, 08:48:32 pm »

There seems to be a broad consensus that a monitor that can display 100% of the Adobe RGB color space is the best choice for photographers who print. However, from what I read about the differences in the Adobe RGB and the Apple P-3 color spaces, these color spaces are very similar in their gamuts, but the Adobe RGB color space is a bit broader in the area of greens and blues, while the P-3 color space is a bit broader than Adobe RGG in the area of reds and yellows. These differences seem to me to be at the margins of the kinds of colors that I would care about as a landscape photographer and, in fact, if I had a choice between a broader selection of greens/blues or reds/yellows, I would opt for the latter. Is this is the right way to think about this, I would think that the Apple XDR Pro display's use of use of the P-3 color space in its reference modes would not be much of a detriment compared to an Eizo or NEC that can show 100% of the Adobe RGB color space.
Is this not the right way to think about Adobe RGB versus the Apple display P-3?

digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2022, 09:05:48 pm »

There seems to be a broad consensus that a monitor that can display 100% of the Adobe RGB color space is the best choice for photographers who print.
Only a broad consensus of the colorimetric uneducated. It not only isn't the best choice and has nothing to do with printing, but it was also a mistake in its creation (we can go there). Further, the difference between Adobe RGB (1998) and DCI-P3 isn't significant in size or gamut volume. They are different. So what?
All the RGB Working Spaces are based on theoretical emissive displays; some that kind of actually exist and some that don't and no direct relationship to any printed material. They are editing spaces.
Gamut volume of Adobe RGB (1998) is 1,207,390
Gamut volume of DCI-P3 is 1,324,470
The simple 2D gamut comparisons are shown below.
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hubell

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2022, 09:20:21 pm »

Only a broad consensus of the colorimetric uneducated. It not only isn't the best choice and has nothing to do with printing, but it was also a mistake in its creation (we can go there). Further, the difference between Adobe RGB (1998) and DCI-P3 isn't significant in size or gamut volume. They are different. So what?
All the RGB Working Spaces are based on theoretical emissive displays; some that kind of actually exist and some that don't and no direct relationship to any printed material. They are editing spaces.
Gamut volume of Adobe RGB (1998) is 1,207,390
Gamut volume of DCI-P3 is 1,324,470
The simple 2D gamut comparisons are shown below.

"Only a broad consensus of the colorimetric uneducated."  So, what is the best choice for an editing space for a monitor (or, as Apple refers to it, a "reference mode") where the end product is a print from my inkjet printer, an Epson 9570? My photographs as I work on them in PS are 16 bit files tagged with Pro Photo RGB. Very common approach.
Thanks.

TechTalk

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2022, 09:24:17 pm »

Here's an article that you may find helpful...

https://creativepro.com/how-do-p3-displays-affect-your-workflow
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digitaldog

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Re: Apple XDR Pro Display for Photo Editing
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2022, 10:11:55 pm »

So, what is the best choice for an editing space for a monitor (or, as Apple refers to it, a "reference mode") where the end product is a print from my inkjet printer, an Epson 9570?
That's like asking "So what's the best choice of transparency film for a photographer"? Of course, it's Ektachrome. No, Velvia. No, Kodachrome.  ;)
Quote
My photographs as I work on them in PS are 16 bit files tagged with Pro Photo RGB. Very common approach.
Good choice.
Common?
Apple can refer to it as a reference mode, it's a color space based on the aim of its creators, like sRGB, or ColorMatch RGB. The difference between it and Adobe RGB (1998) which didn't get created for an aim is the color gamut which again, isn't significant. And no one should expect to have the entire calibration aim points of a display match anything that doesn't work for them. My NEC may have a native calibrated gamut of Adobe RGB (1998) but it isn't producing Adobe RGB (1998) because of how I calibrate the display otherwise and for the goal, as best as possible, to match a print while soft proofing.
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