Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Evidently not, since we ended up with VHS and not Betamax.

Why wasn't the VHS the best choice?  Individuals freely decided on it for different reasons.  That's how the free market works.  Should the government decide a particular Canon model is better than a Nikon model?  Competition in a free market is based on many factors, not just quality.  If it was based on quality alone, no one would buy most cheap Chinese products. 

[jeremyrh]

Why wasn't the VHS the best choice?  Individuals freely decided on it for different reasons.  That's how the free market works.  Should the government decide a particular Canon model is better than a Nikon model?  Competition in a free market is based on many factors, not just quality.  If it was based on quality alone, no one would buy most cheap Chinese products.

You're getting muddled up again.  Consumers at any point buy the best available according to their criteria.  That's as true in the USSR as it is in the USA.  Your claim that this results in the optimum outcome is false - VHS being a classic example. Betamax was driven out of existence, so consumers ended up with no choice.

[Alan Klein]

You're getting muddled up again.  Consumers at any point buy the best available according to their criteria.  That's as true in the USSR as it is in the USA.  Your claim that this results in the optimum outcome is false - VHS being a classic example. Betamax was driven out of existence, so consumers ended up with no choice.

Standards are created all the time in industries.  The free market determined the standard and VHS won. But the free-market also obsoleted VHS.  No one even uses VHS anymore.  It was replaced with CD, then DVDs, now memory cards and other storage devices, all due to the free market and customer-driven demand, not government edict.

[Alan Klein]

Interestingly, Sony also created Blu Ray disks.  Movies were used on these if not the old Betamax.  So they eventually got their product used too.  But now B-R is mainly gone, and many storage types are not being used as people favor streaming.  Time marches on thanks to free markets, not the government.

[faberryman]

Free markets are the best process.

The best process for what?

[jeremyrh]

Interestingly, Sony also created Blu Ray disks.  Movies were used on these if not the old Betamax.  So they eventually got their product used too.  But now B-R is mainly gone, and many storage types are not being used as people favor streaming.  Time marches on thanks to free markets, not the government.

Another total non sequitur

[TechTalk]

Interestingly, Sony also created Blu Ray disks.  Movies were used on these if not the old Betamax.  So they eventually got their product used too.  But now B-R is mainly gone, and many storage types are not being used as people favor streaming.  Time marches on thanks to free markets, not the government.

The ability to stream entertainment over the internet, which Alan sites, is NOT the end result of free market research and development at work; nor the result of government action and R&D; nor a result of academic research and development. It is the result of ALL of the above. This is something that blind adherence to an ideology is both unwilling and unable to recognize.

[LesPalenik]

The best process for what?

For processed cheese, for example. Maybe the best process, but not the healthiest.

[faberryman]

Let's assume that the free market exists, and that the free market chose VHS. What does that tell you about VHS other than it was chosen by the free market? Speaking of free markets, how do you define the market for VHS?

It was interesting to me to learn that Betamax was introduced in 1975 and discontinued in 2002. It was manufactured for 27 years. How's that for efficiency of the free market selecting winners and losers?

You might think that VHS was chosen by the free market, but consider that JVC and its consortium may have simply split the market. Cost conscious buyers bought VHS, quality conscious consumers bought Betamax. Or consumers bought VHS and professionals bought Betamax. If you chop up the market into fine enough sections, everyone can be a winner. Just redefine the market. It a definitional issue.

[Robert Roaldi]

Interestingly, Sony also created Blu Ray disks.  Movies were used on these if not the old Betamax.  So they eventually got their product used too.  But now B-R is mainly gone, and many storage types are not being used as people favor streaming.  Time marches on thanks to free markets, not the government.

When did the government ever try to dictate electronic data storage standards? What are you talking about? I think you've lost track yourself of the point you were trying to make.

Maybe you need to have 3 or 4 governments competing with each other, then the marketplace could decide which one was doing the best job and they'd win, just like VHS did. Trouble is once one of them got to the top job, how could any other government startup ever try to compete with them. So I don't think that idea is going to work. I withdraw the idea.

When I heat my house, I am able to decide which of the many gas companies delivers gas to my house. There used to be just one such company, not sure why we need so many of them now, but I'm sure someone knows. Eventually, the best one will win and the rest will disappear and we'll be back to one company. One thing that confuses me is how in the hell they can decide which gas molecules belong to which company or how to get those molecules to divert to my house. It's an amazing thing. Only the free market could design something like that, no government ever could, I'm sure.

[chez]

Bingo!!!

[Alan Klein]

Protestors have given up on the Capitol.

Dutch curfew riots rage for third night
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55799919

[BobShaw]

Why wasn't the VHS the best choice?  Individuals freely decided on it for different reasons.  That's how the free market works. 

There were six manufacturers including JVC that decided on VHS to exclude Sony. That's how the free market works.
Beta was actually better and the professionals and news agencies continued to use it because you could take a video out of the camera and put it straight into the player.
Eventually Sony, because it is essentially a consumers electronics company, also went with VHS but continued to produce Beta for Pro applications.

[faberryman]

I am watching the news and Biden just placed an order for 200M more doses of vaccine. I am glad someone can count.

[faberryman]

There were six manufacturers including JVC that decided on VHS to exclude Sony. That's how the free market works.

Yes, manufacturers colluding among themselves to determine winners and losers. The VHS consortium beat out Betamax. By the time the manufacturers get through picking winners and losers, the consumer is stuck with whatever the manufacturers colluded to give him. Typical anticompetitive behavior that would be subject to antitrust laws, but governmental regulation distorts the free market, so we don't want to have any antitrust laws.

[kers]

Protestors have given up on the Capitol...

Yes in my country they storm supermarkets...
The next level...

[Alan Klein]

There were six manufacturers including JVC that decided on VHS to exclude Sony. That's how the free market works.
Beta was actually better and the professionals and news agencies continued to use it because you could take a video out of the camera and put it straight into the player.
Eventually Sony, because it is essentially a consumers electronics company, also went with VHS but continued to produce Beta for Pro applications.

So only Sony had to change their design.  If they went the other way, 5 manufacturers would have to change their design and manufacturing to Sony's.  Is that right?  So they voted 5-1 and Sony lost.  Seems fair to me.

In any case, it's all beside the point.  The issue was that the government wasn't involved in picking winners and losers.  That would have been worse.

[Alan Klein]

Yes in my country they storm supermarkets...
The next level...

Well, they're hungry.  After all that rioting, you build up an appetite.

[faberryman]

So only Sony had to change their design.  If they went the other way, 5 manufacturers would have to change their design and manufacturing to Sony's.  Is that right?  So they voted 5-1 and Sony lost.  Seems fair to me.

It was certainly good for the VHS consortium . By virtue of their combination in restraint of trade, they now had a virtual monopoly on consumer video recording and playback devices. You, know, I'm thinking maybe that was the point. The invisible hand of the free market.

[LesPalenik]

So only Sony had to change their design.  If they went the other way, 5 manufacturers would have to change their design and manufacturing to Sony's.  Is that right?  So they voted 5-1 and Sony lost.  Seems fair to me.

In any case, it's all beside the point.  The issue was that the government wasn't involved in picking winners and losers.  That would have been worse.

Similar to EV and battery manufacturing. But in this case, Tesla is winning.