Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I’m not sure what you’re on about. I thought that the point I was making was that democracy had triumphed in the US. That in spite of Trumps protests to the contrary, you had a free and fair election. I respect the USA very much, and have been saddened by the plummeting respect it’s garnered under Trump. Democracy is alive and well.
I think you’ve dug yourself into such a defensive foxhole that you cannot even recognise a friendly face anymore.
Jim

Part of democracy is to appeal decisions.  That's what Trump is doing just as Gore did in 2000.  I don't think Trump is going to win.  Nor do I think there's fraud in four states to change the results. But he has a right to argue his point legally.  That's the democratic process. 

For four years all we heard from the other side was how Trump was an illegitimate president even after he won.  He is a traitor, he colluded with the Russians.  It went on and on.  Clinton blamed FBI Director Comey, the electoral college, and the Russians.  We had a two-year investigation where Trump was undermined.  Yet, no one on your side thought that democracy was under siege by all those complaints.  In fact, you thought that was democracy working.  Yet, you get a little of the same from the other side, and you fall apart. You scream it's the end of democracy in the US. It seems you only believe in democracy when it leans in your favor.  Sorry, but that's not what America's about. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[TechTalk]

You have enough apples, oranges, bananas, and lemons in that to make a colorful fruit salad. You might want to offer your services to the Trump legal team.

[Alan Klein]

You have enough apples, oranges, bananas, and lemons in that to make a colorful fruit salad. You might want to offer your services to the Trump legal team.

Colorful non-sequitar. But you didn't address my points. 

[TechTalk]

It was actually a metaphor. I didn't intend to address your "points" as I don't see any point in doing so.

I was just offering a metaphor to your mixture of oft-repeated and rambling thoughts combined with apples to oranges comparisons which reminded me of fruit salad. Partially because I'm getting hungry and have some delightful Fall apples to use. If I'm still hungry, I may come back for your goose and gander at a later time.

[Alan Klein]

It was actually a simile. I didn't intend to address your "points" as I don't see any point in doing so.

I was just offering a simile to your mixture of oft-repeated and rambling thoughts combined with apples to oranges comparisons which reminded me of fruit salad. Partially because I'm getting hungry and have some delightful Fall apples to use. If I'm still hungry, I may come back for your goose and gander at a later time.

Well, it is getting close to Thanksgiving. 

[Alan Klein]

As I've been saying, it ain't over until the fat lady sings.  Apparently, Canadians have been learning bad habits from Americans and Europeans. Maybe this will stop the finger-pointing at America,  but I doubt it.

Trudeau urges Canadians to stay home as Covid-19 surges
New projections show the country could see 20,000 cases daily if Canadians don't reduce their contacts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/20/trudeau-canada-covid-19-surge-438865

[Alan Klein]

Apparently, Trudeau is following pretty much the same procedures as the American national government and leaving it to their provinces as we leave it to our state governors.  It's actually more strict in the USA as certain states have restricted other states from traveling to their states.  Not so with Canada's provinces. Of course, the whole thing here was about presidential election politics.  Now that it's over, many other countries are going to follow America with large number of cases and confusion as to what to do with their economies.  Of course, we won't hear about it here as people will be busy wiping egg off their faces. 

...No national lockdown: Provinces have jurisdiction over public health decisions in Canada. But the patchwork of rules across provinces and regions has caused confusion, prompting calls from some quarters for Trudeau to use emergency powers to impose a national, coordinated response to the second wave. Trudeau, however, has remained adamant that he does not want to intrude on provincial decision-making. On Friday, he said using the federal Emergencies Act to restrict travel between provinces is “not an idea I am even contemplating right now.”

He also categorically rejected the idea of another nationwide lockdown like the one last spring that saw schools and businesses shuttered across the country. Given the situation isn’t the same in all regions, he said, targeted restrictions are a more effective approach. “It was somewhat simpler in the spring,” he said of the nationwide shutdown. “And it worked to bend that curve. But millions of Canadians suffered and it was a blunt object of a tool.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/20/trudeau-canada-covid-19-surge-438865

[TechTalk]

Pointing fingers? Pointing fingers? When problems with mitigation in the United States are discussed, your go to response is "what about Europe?" or "what about [fill in blank]". Do you think anyone that's in a U.S. hospital bed—if there are any left where they are—struggling to breathe is wondering "what about Europe?".

My buddy was lucky to get admitted to the local hospital when he did as they are almost out of beds. He's better and will hopefully continue to improve because today the hospital ran out of ICU beds. The hospital is the regional medical center, but they are no longer accepting transfers from the smaller community hospitals in the surrounding area. They are now facing the likely potential of trying to transfer some of their own patients to other hospitals, the problem is where to find one.

Because of the irresponsible people and businesses in the community that have ignored masks and restrictions, until now you've been able to dine inside at a restaurant or have a beer with your friends at a bar or anything else that you feel like doing. NOW, if you have a stroke or heart attack or horrible accident, there are no ICU beds. F**king Tea Party Ass mayor has said since the beginning, we're not enforcing any State restrictions, let the State enforce them if they want. NOW... It's panic time and they're starting to think this may be a real problem!

"Of course, we won't hear about it here as people will be busy wiping egg off their faces.  " DISGUSTING!

[LesPalenik]

Apparently, Trudeau is following pretty much the same procedures as the American national government and leaving it to their provinces as we leave it to our state governors.  It's actually more strict in the USA as certain states have restricted other states from traveling to their states.  Not so with Canada's provinces. Of course, the whole thing here was about presidential election politics.  Now that it's over, many other countries are going to follow America with large number of cases and confusion as to what to do with their economies.  Of course, we won't hear about it here as people will be busy wiping egg off their faces. 

The rules vary from province-to-province, but almost all are discouraging travelling in-between them right now. Actually, due to the latest lockdowns in some places, this weekend some of the travel rules may change again.

Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick have altogether banned out-of-province travellers, while Manitoba and Nova Scotia require anyone visiting to self-isolate for 14-days upon arrival.

Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario, Saskatchewan and Quebec have not formally banned travellers, but are actively discouraging the practice.

[Jim Pascoe]

It appears the “free and fair election” thing continues to remain unsettled at this moment.

Surely you have to be kidding?  The electoral system appears to be fit for purpose, and while it was almost to be expected that Trump would rather childishly still be claiming “I won”, I cannot believe that anyone else, unless completely besotted by Trump, would think the election was fraudulent. it’s not unsettled at all. Thankfully.

Jim

[Jim Pascoe]

Part of democracy is to appeal decisions.  That's what Trump is doing just as Gore did in 2000.  I don't think Trump is going to win.  Nor do I think there's fraud in four states to change the results. But he has a right to argue his point legally.  That's the democratic process. 

For four years all we heard from the other side was how Trump was an illegitimate president even after he won.  He is a traitor, he colluded with the Russians.  It went on and on.  Clinton blamed FBI Director Comey, the electoral college, and the Russians.  We had a two-year investigation where Trump was undermined.  Yet, no one on your side thought that democracy was under siege by all those complaints.  In fact, you thought that was democracy working.  Yet, you get a little of the same from the other side, and you fall apart. You scream it's the end of democracy in the US. It seems you only believe in democracy when it leans in your favor.  Sorry, but that's not what America's about. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ah, I see your problem. You think I’m choosing sides. Not at all. You think if I don’t like Trump I must be a Commie (Democrat). Really, I have no real interest in which side anyone’s on. But Trump is continuing to make himself look very foolish and acting like a petulant child.

Against my choice, we voted for Brexit in the UK. I think it’s a mistake to leave the EU and it was close 51/49% I believe. But I accepted it, even if I was surprised. So you see I do accept basic democracy.

[kers]

Trump and the republicans are buying time to push some of their plans through that Biden would not support.
Pompeo makes a round in the middle east selling huge amounts of arms to the close enemies of Iran;

 UAE ( $23.3bn in weapons ) ; Bahrein, Saudi arabia, and Israel. (Georgia, Sudan)

It could be the beginning of  a new huge (religeous) islamic war (  Shiite allies contra Sunnite Iran)
The war that Saoudi Arabia supports in Jemen has that same religeous goal.
Remember Irak in the days of Hoessein also got there arms from western countries to counter Iran.
As we know; It attacked iran and later on Kuwait. - in the order of a million mostly Iraki and Iranian people died.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/21/pompeo-travels-to-the-uae-to-discuss-arms-sale-iran-and-israel

Iran has done it best to make its (sunite) influence  felt in the region, but never started a war.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Trump is continuing to make himself look very foolish and acting like a petulant child...

In the early days after the election, I was saying: "Give them (Trump legal team) a week or two to prepare the court case(s)... those weeks have passed, and all they can come up with are press conferences with outlandish conspiracy theories. And Trump acting like a petulant child, repeating "I won" every chance he gets. They never "released the Kraken" as promised. I kept waiting for that bombshell proof that "millions of votes have been switched or deleted" (or at least hundreds of thousands). It never came. Instead, we got small instances of proven irregularities, affecting only hundreds or perhaps thousands of votes, but nothing that would change the outcome. And some instances that appeared unusual at first glance, but were explained away logically later.

[James Clark]

In the early days after the election, I was saying: "Give them (Trump legal team) a week or two to prepare the court case(s)... those weeks have passed, and all they can come up with are press conferences with outlandish conspiracy theories. And Trump acting like a petulant child, repeating "I won" every chance he gets. They never "released the Kraken" as promised. I kept waiting for that bombshell proof that "millions of votes have been switched or deleted" (or at least hundreds of thousands). It never came. Instead, we got small instances of proven irregularities, affecting only hundreds or perhaps thousands of votes, but nothing that would change the outcome. And some instances that appeared unusual at first glance, but were explained away logically later.

This about sums it up.  I’d only add that, at least in my circle, even most of us center lefty types were absolutely fine with letting his lawyers investigate reasonably and take actual evidence of fraud to court.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... most of us center lefty types...

Since this is a bear pit, anything goes:

[Craig Lamson]

Surely you have to be kidding?  The electoral system appears to be fit for purpose, and while it was almost to be expected that Trump would rather childishly still be claiming “I won”, I cannot believe that anyone else, unless completely besotted by Trump, would think the election was fraudulent. it’s not unsettled at all. Thankfully.

Jim

You may not believe but the last Rasmussen poll of likely voters said that 47% view the election as tainted.

It is unsettled and will remain so until Trump runs his legal claims to the end. 

[chez]

Apparently, Trudeau is following pretty much the same procedures as the American national government and leaving it to their provinces as we leave it to our state governors.  It's actually more strict in the USA as certain states have restricted other states from traveling to their states.  Not so with Canada's provinces. Of course, the whole thing here was about presidential election politics.  Now that it's over, many other countries are going to follow America with large number of cases and confusion as to what to do with their economies.  Of course, we won't hear about it here as people will be busy wiping egg off their faces. 

...No national lockdown: Provinces have jurisdiction over public health decisions in Canada. But the patchwork of rules across provinces and regions has caused confusion, prompting calls from some quarters for Trudeau to use emergency powers to impose a national, coordinated response to the second wave. Trudeau, however, has remained adamant that he does not want to intrude on provincial decision-making. On Friday, he said using the federal Emergencies Act to restrict travel between provinces is “not an idea I am even contemplating right now.”

He also categorically rejected the idea of another nationwide lockdown like the one last spring that saw schools and businesses shuttered across the country. Given the situation isn’t the same in all regions, he said, targeted restrictions are a more effective approach. “It was somewhat simpler in the spring,” he said of the nationwide shutdown. “And it worked to bend that curve. But millions of Canadians suffered and it was a blunt object of a tool.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/20/trudeau-canada-covid-19-surge-438865

Trudeau was on National TV yesterday urging people to wear masks, urging people to limit travel only for essential services, telling people money will be available to help everyone. Contrast that with Chetos that labeled people who wear masks as being weak, encouraged large gatherings without masks and egged on people to disregard the states measures and go out to bars.

Tell me, who is a leader and who is an idiot? Who is trying to keep their country safe and who is trying to divide their country.

There is very little in common between the USA leadership fighting the virus and the Canadian leadership.

[Alan Klein]

Ah, I see your problem. You think I’m choosing sides. Not at all. You think if I don’t like Trump I must be a Commie (Democrat). Really, I have no real interest in which side anyone’s on. But Trump is continuing to make himself look very foolish and acting like a petulant child.

Against my choice, we voted for Brexit in the UK. I think it’s a mistake to leave the EU and it was close 51/49% I believe. But I accepted it, even if I was surprised. So you see I do accept basic democracy.

I've said before I believe he lost and should just move on.  But then, I wasn't the one who lost.  I seem to recall that your PM went to the Queen to get a ruling using her power to get his way regarding something with Brexit.  I don't recall the circumstances.  Maybe someone here could remind us.  But the point is politicians use whatever powers they can to get their way.  Trump is legally using the courts in accordance with our constitution.  We don't have royalty to override democracy.

[Alan Klein]

Pointing fingers? Pointing fingers? When problems with mitigation in the United States are discussed, your go to response is "what about Europe?" or "what about [fill in blank]". Do you think anyone that's in a U.S. hospital bed—if there are any left where they are—struggling to breathe is wondering "what about Europe?".

My buddy was lucky to get admitted to the local hospital when he did as they are almost out of beds. He's better and will hopefully continue to improve because today the hospital ran out of ICU beds. The hospital is the regional medical center, but they are no longer accepting transfers from the smaller community hospitals in the surrounding area. They are now facing the likely potential of trying to transfer some of their own patients to other hospitals, the problem is where to find one.

Because of the irresponsible people and businesses in the community that have ignored masks and restrictions, until now you've been able to dine inside at a restaurant or have a beer with your friends at a bar or anything else that you feel like doing. NOW, if you have a stroke or heart attack or horrible accident, there are no ICU beds. F**king Tea Party Ass mayor has said since the beginning, we're not enforcing any State restrictions, let the State enforce them if they want. NOW... It's panic time and they're starting to think this may be a real problem!

"Of course, we won't hear about it here as people will be busy wiping egg off their faces.  " DISGUSTING!

Many people here always are talking about America and knocking it as if it was an outlier. The point I'm making about Canada's escalating rate is that no one has gotten this right at least in the Western world.  A little humility from the America knockers is called for.   As an American, why don't you stand up for your own country.  That's disgusting. 

[Alan Klein]

Surely you have to be kidding?  The electoral system appears to be fit for purpose, and while it was almost to be expected that Trump would rather childishly still be claiming “I won”, I cannot believe that anyone else, unless completely besotted by Trump, would think the election was fraudulent. it’s not unsettled at all. Thankfully.

Jim

The Democrats stole it fair and square.