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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1323859 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9900 on: April 10, 2021, 11:34:40 pm »

What did you mean to say here, I didn't understand.
I was trying to point out the Democrats were the only ones who tried this before and the only ones who are again trying the same thing.  Packing the court so they can legislate liberal laws from the bench. That's what FDR tried and Biden's going to try it again.  He may succeed.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9901 on: April 10, 2021, 11:40:21 pm »

Not only does the Supreme Court have a different view about what is constitutional and unconstitutional, the Constitution has a different view about what is constitutional and unconstitutional regarding the powers of Congress to decide how and for what purpose to appropriate funds.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" [Capitalization as in original]

The Supreme Court has upheld the view on multiple occasions that it's a very broad power not limited by the other powers enumerated in Article I.

Their powers are not general as you stated.  That's just a preamble They are specifically enumerated.  Those powers not enumerated are left to the States and the people.  In any case what does bailing out unions and corporations have to do with your post?  Taxes are collected for specific things like paying for the army, not for paying someone's private pension with other people's money.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9902 on: April 10, 2021, 11:42:19 pm »

When you have an ax to grind, you can not only grind it until there's no blade left; you can grind it until there's no more ax. It doesn't matter how baseless the claim might be, as you will never cease to doubt it... or repeat it.
blah.blah.blah.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9903 on: April 10, 2021, 11:58:50 pm »

Their powers are not general as you stated.  That's just a preamble They are specifically enumerated.  Those powers not enumerated are left to the States and the people.  In any case what does bailing out unions and corporations have to do with your post?  Taxes are collected for specific things like paying for the army, not for paying someone's private pension with other people's money.

Promoting the General Welfare is stated in the preamble and it's not just a preamble, it defines the purpose of the Constitution as a whole. General Welfare also appears in the quote which I provided that begins Article I Section 8 that details the powers of Congress. It is the very first power listed as given to Congress and the one with by far the broadest scope. "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" [Capitalization as in original]. That is an enumerated power that is not constrained by the other enumerated powers. Congress decides what specific appropriations to make which they believe best "provide for the general welfare".
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9904 on: April 11, 2021, 12:18:59 am »

Promoting the General Welfare is stated in the preamble and it's not just a preamble, it defines the purpose of the Constitution as a whole. General Welfare also appears in the quote which I provided that begins Article I Section 8 that details the powers of Congress. It is the very first power listed as given to Congress and the one with by far the broadest scope. "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" [Capitalization as in original]. That is an enumerated power that is not constrained by the other enumerated powers. Congress decides what specific appropriations to make which they believe best "provide for the general welfare".
That was the Supreme Court's interpretation that went beyond the founder's intent to have enumerated powers.  It's allowed the Federal government to accrue enormous powers over the centuries that the founders didn;t intend for them. Those powers were  to be reserved to the states and people.  It's eroded our freedoms and will be their death knell if the court is packed.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9905 on: April 11, 2021, 12:35:17 am »

That is the clear and unambiguous text as written by the framers. It is there for a reason. It gives the power to the most representative branch to control the "purse strings" as it's often called and is there to give Congress its primary lever of power in competition with the other branches.

The framers were not careless or sloppy with language and words. It is worded as it is for a purpose. "Shall have power to" means what it says. "provide for the... general Welfare" means general welfare. Had they intended "specified purposes enumerated as follows" that's what they would have written. They were quite well versed in the use of language.
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9906 on: April 11, 2021, 03:14:42 am »

Packing the court only requires the Democrats. FDR (Democrat President Franklin Roosevelt) tried it back in the 1930s.  But even members of his own party stopped him.  It was a bad idea then and is a worse idea today.  Specific liberal justices were planned to be picked for the court to "approve" FDR's liberal legislation that the existing 9 member court would have declared unconstitutional.

You missed the part where I said

... ideally appointed fm within the judiciary and outside the influence of the sitting President, ...

Such is the Supreme Court of the UK.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9907 on: April 11, 2021, 08:24:09 am »

That is the clear and unambiguous text as written by the framers. It is there for a reason. It gives the power to the most representative branch to control the "purse strings" as it's often called and is there to give Congress its primary lever of power in competition with the other branches.

The framers were not careless or sloppy with language and words. It is worded as it is for a purpose. "Shall have power to" means what it says. "provide for the... general Welfare" means general welfare. Had they intended "specified purposes enumerated as follows" that's what they would have written. They were quite well versed in the use of language.
It has been interpreted to be very open, but that has only been very recently.  The dispute as to whether it covers everything or just the enumerated powers subsequently listed has been in dispute from before the constitution was approved.

We have for the most part taken your view which has assigned enormous power to the federal government to interfere in our lives.  Let's face it.  If you take a very broad view, the federal government can do practically anything it wants.  It has seized for itself this enormous power over states and our personal lives because of it, limiting our freedoms.  That's unfortunate.  I don't think the intent was that broad. 

As you know, the ability to tax income was added by Amendment. Sure there were excise taxes in the original document.  But without the ability to tax income granted by Amendment, the government had little it could spend on after the costs of an army and the other enumerated expenses it had to care for.  So I don't think the original intent was for the government to bail out corporations and unions and spend money or credits for oil or solar.   This is one of the reasons the government and the public are broke.  Because the Federal government has seized power under the acquiescence of the cowardly and liberal Supreme Court and spent itself to death.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9908 on: April 11, 2021, 08:31:52 am »

You missed the part where I said

Quote
Quote from: Manoli on April 10, 2021, 06:34:08 pm
... ideally appointed fm within the judiciary and outside the influence of the sitting President, ...

Such is the Supreme Court of the UK.

The Democrats wouldn't go for that idea.  It would defeat the whole point of trying to pack the court.  :)

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9909 on: April 11, 2021, 10:24:11 am »

It has been interpreted to be very open, but that has only been very recently.  The dispute as to whether it covers everything or just the enumerated powers subsequently listed has been in dispute from before the constitution was approved.

These two statements do not work together ;). (For the record, the latter is more or less historically correct.)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9910 on: April 11, 2021, 10:32:39 am »

blah.blah.blah.

A predictably evasive and vapid response to TechTalk’s rigorous curation of your previous evasive and extensive vapidity.

Springtime is here, Alan.  You can’t skate on thin ice much longer.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9911 on: April 11, 2021, 10:39:27 am »

These two statements do not work together ;). (For the record, the latter is more or less historically correct.)
My point, not clear I admit, was that the justices have ruled and made it more encompassing clarifying the original argument as to its scope.  I feel it's a bad decision. I would prefer less government power which limits personal freedoms and control over our lives. I think that was the intent of our founders as well.  The whole structure of our constitution was to limit government power.

The worse amendment was the taxing amendment. Once you have control over all that money, you have to find a place to spend it.  So you tax more and more and spend more and more as well.  All that limits liberty.  It creates huge militaries needing something to do that presidents use without congressional authority, another thing our founders tried to avoid. You spend money on education, favorite products like oil or green, bail out corporations and unions, and everyone else who can pay for a lobbyist, etc.  Then you need to print because the voters complain about higher taxes which cause devaluation of our currency and poverty.  We really have screwed up a great document.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9912 on: April 11, 2021, 10:48:57 am »

A predictably evasive and vapid response to TechTalk’s rigorous curation of your previous evasive and extensive vapidity.

Springtime is here, Alan.  You can’t skate on thin ice much longer.
My blah blah blah was a copy of TeckTalk's multiple repetition of that same phrase against my earlier post.  Check it out.

I was just being sarcastic in kind.  I think TechTalk got my alliteration and took it as a joke as I intended. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9913 on: April 11, 2021, 01:58:19 pm »

It has been interpreted to be very open, but that has only been very recently.  The dispute as to whether it covers everything or just the enumerated powers subsequently listed has been in dispute from before the constitution was approved.

We have for the most part taken your view which has assigned enormous power to the federal government to interfere in our lives.  Let's face it.  If you take a very broad view, the federal government can do practically anything it wants.  It has seized for itself this enormous power over states and our personal lives because of it, limiting our freedoms.  That's unfortunate.  I don't think the intent was that broad. 

As you know, the ability to tax income was added by Amendment. Sure there were excise taxes in the original document.  But without the ability to tax income granted by Amendment, the government had little it could spend on after the costs of an army and the other enumerated expenses it had to care for.  So I don't think the original intent was for the government to bail out corporations and unions and spend money or credits for oil or solar.   This is one of the reasons the government and the public are broke.  Because the Federal government has seized power under the acquiescence of the cowardly and liberal Supreme Court and spent itself to death.

You seem to be discussing both the specific article, section, and clause of the Constitution which gives Congress the broad power to decide matters of spending and a broader discussion to include powers to tax, as well as interpretation of the framer's intent for the Constitution more broadly. Given my preference for discussions that are focused and don't unnecessarily wander too far afield, I'll discuss the latter only briefly as it relates to the broadness and specificity of the language used in the Constitution.

First, the reason that multiple Supreme Courts across multiple decades have upheld that the Constitution gives Congress very broad spending power with few limits is due to the language the framers used. I've repeated it multiple times and won't do so again. Anyone can argue anything, but the foundations for arguments are not all equally strong. The foundation for the argument that "general welfare" actually means that it applies only to other specifically enumerated powers is weak because it assumes that it's what the framers intended, but that they simply failed to say so specifically and inadvertently chose vague language. The reason that multiple Supreme Courts have rejected that argument is because the argument that the framers in writing the Constitution chose words and expressed intent carefully and as clearly as language permits is very strong based on knowledge of those that wrote it. It follows then that the use of the specific word "general" in reference to spending means general and does not mean the opposite; that it is intended to mean specifically limited by other powers. The view of multiple Supreme Courts has been that if the framers intended the general spending power to be limited to the other specifically enumerated powers they were capable of saying so, but chose not to do so for a reason. I mentioned the reason earlier.

As to the taxing power, it wanders from the discussion of spending power, so I'll take a pass on discussing it in any detail. I'll just mention briefly that the first direct federal tax on income came at the beginning of the Civil War in 1861 and ended in 1872. The history of the Sixteenth Amendment is another kettle of fish that I need not get into in this discussion.

Finally, regarding various Constitutional interpretations of federal powers and the language and intent of the framers in writing it, there is obviously no universally accepted view. Debate over these things indeed started from the moment it was signed and will continue as long as it remains the governing document. My view is that those who take the extreme black and white positions of interpretation are on shaky ground. The language used by the framers in the Constitution is very specific in parts of the document and broad in others. So, the argument that the entire document was intended to be interpreted broadly enough to give the federal government nearly unlimited power is as weak as the argument that the entire document was intended to be interpreted so specifically that the federal government has only a very narrow range of power. Those extreme views ignore the facts that the framers were extremely well educated and skilled in the use of language and that they used that language in both broad and specific ways in crafting the language of the Constitution. It is because of the use of both broad and specific language that the extreme views have such a weak foundation for their arguments. The reality is that rational arguments applied to the Constitution fall within a broad continuum between those extremes and will no doubt continue unabated regarding just how broad the broadly worded powers are and how narrow the specifically worded powers.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9914 on: April 11, 2021, 02:23:58 pm »

You seem to be discussing both the specific article, section, and clause of the Constitution which gives Congress the broad power to decide matters of spending and a broader discussion to include powers to tax, as well as interpretation of the framer's intent for the Constitution more broadly. Given my preference for discussions that are focused and don't unnecessarily wander too far afield, I'll discuss the latter only briefly as it relates to the broadness and specificity of the language used in the Constitution.

First, the reason that multiple Supreme Courts across multiple decades have upheld that the Constitution gives Congress very broad spending power with few limits is due to the language the framers used. I've repeated it multiple times and won't do so again. Anyone can argue anything, but the foundations for arguments are not all equally strong. The foundation for the argument that "general welfare" actually means that it applies only to other specifically enumerated powers is weak because it assumes that it's what the framers intended, but that they simply failed to say so specifically and inadvertently chose vague language. The reason that multiple Supreme Courts have rejected that argument is because the argument that the framers in writing the Constitution chose words and expressed intent carefully and as clearly as language permits is very strong based on knowledge of those that wrote it. It follows then that the use of the specific word "general" in reference to spending means general and does not mean the opposite; that it is intended to mean specifically limited by other powers. The view of multiple Supreme Courts has been that if the framers intended the general spending power to be limited to the other specifically enumerated powers they were capable of saying so, but chose not to do so for a reason. I mentioned the reason earlier.

As to the taxing power, it wanders from the discussion of spending power, so I'll take a pass on discussing it in any detail. I'll just mention briefly that the first direct federal tax on income came at the beginning of the Civil War in 1861 and ended in 1872. The history of the Sixteenth Amendment is another kettle of fish that I need not get into in this discussion.

Finally, regarding various Constitutional interpretations of federal powers and the language and intent of the framers in writing it, there is obviously no universally accepted view. Debate over these things indeed started from the moment it was signed and will continue as long as it remains the governing document. My view is that those who take the extreme black and white positions of interpretation are on shaky ground. The language used by the framers in the Constitution is very specific in parts of the document and broad in others. So, the argument that the entire document was intended to be interpreted broadly enough to give the federal government nearly unlimited power is as weak as the argument that the entire document was intended to be interpreted so specifically that the federal government has only a very narrow range of power. Those extreme views ignore the facts that the framers were extremely well educated and skilled in the use of language and that they used that language in both broad and specific ways in crafting the language of the Constitution. It is because of the use of both broad and specific language that the extreme views have such a weak foundation for their arguments. The reality is that rational arguments applied to the Constitution fall within a broad continuum between those extremes and will no doubt continue unabated regarding just how broad the broadly worded powers are and how narrow the specifically worded powers.
Obviously, my belief as to its interpretation is beside the point since the court has ruled otherwise.  But you didn't address my main point.  That is because of the court's decisions, the federal government has seized power to a magnitude that many including me feel impinges on our liberties.  It probably goes beyond what the framers had anticipated.    Certainly, the ability to tax as was given to the government in an Amendment was not anticipated by them nor the reaching power taxes give any government to control people, industry, and even the independent and sovereign states. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9915 on: April 11, 2021, 03:05:25 pm »

Fortunately we have a written constitution and 50 sovereign states that would keep the imperial gene for centralized power in Washington in check.  But who knows for sure? Every day, another treasured freedom is watered down like death from a thousand cuts. It's a slippery slope.

The principal issue that I have with your statements above is the language you use. States are not fully sovereign. They share sovereignty with the federal government. That shared sovereignty serves as a check on the power of both states and the federal government, though Article VI gives general supremacy of the federal constitution and federal laws over state constitutions and state laws. The relationship between the states and the federal government under the Articles of Confederation left the federal government too weak and allowed states to run roughshod over and ignore Congress and necessitated the drafting of the current constitution to insure a federal government with enough power to make the word united in United States meaningful; thus the Supremacy Clause in Article VI.

Certainly, the Constitution does divide power between the states and federal government which intentionaly creates a built-in tension between them, just as there is tension, by design, in the separation of powers between the competing federal branches of government. If you want to refer to the tension between the states and federal government designed into the Constitution as a "slippery slope" there is little doubt which of the two has the higher position on the slope. The slipperiness is the reason for the Constitution and the federal courts, included within, to provide rules and stability between the competing interests of states and the federal government.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9916 on: April 11, 2021, 03:27:48 pm »

Obviously, my belief as to its interpretation is beside the point since the court has ruled otherwise. But you didn't address my main point.  That is because of the court's decisions, the federal government has seized power to a magnitude that many including me feel impinges on our liberties.  It probably goes beyond what the framers had anticipated.    Certainly, the ability to tax as was given to the government in an Amendment was not anticipated by them nor the reaching power taxes give any government to control people, industry, and even the independent and sovereign states.

I did address your broader points by saying "Given my preference for discussions that are focused and don't unnecessarily wander too far afield, I'll discuss the latter only briefly as it relates to the broadness and specificity of the language used in the Constitution." which I did. I did not want to dilute the discussion of spending power by wandering too far from that specific topic.

For additional discussion of the issues surrounding federal power and the relationship of that power to states and the courts, you can reference the reply above on state sovereignty. As to your statement "the ability to tax as was given to the government in an Amendment was not anticipated by them [the framers]", I would say that the framers were wise enough to know that whatever wisdom they possessed was limited to the past and present and did not extend to anticipating what the future might hold in store for the nation. It's one reason that they built a process for amendment into the Constitution. It also explains why some powers are broadly given and others are more specific.
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9917 on: April 11, 2021, 03:53:46 pm »

The principal issue that I have with your statements above is the language you use. States are not fully sovereign. They share sovereignty with the federal government. That shared sovereignty serves as a check on the power of both states and the federal government, though Article VI gives general supremacy of the federal constitution and federal laws over state constitutions and state laws. The relationship between the states and the federal government under the Articles of Confederation left the federal government too weak and allowed states to run roughshod over and ignore Congress and necessitated the drafting of the current constitution to insure a federal government with enough power to make the word united in United States meaningful; thus the Supremacy Clause in Article VI.

Certainly, the Constitution does divide power between the states and federal government which intentionaly creates a built-in tension between them, just as there is tension, by design, in the separation of powers between the competing federal branches of government. If you want to refer to the tension between the states and federal government designed into the Constitution as a "slippery slope" there is little doubt which of the two has the higher position on the slope. The slipperiness is the reason for the Constitution and the federal courts, included within, to provide rules and stability between the competing interests of states and the federal government.

It's also important to generally consider this in light of the circumstances of the Constitutional Convention - specifically, the proximity to a period of time when governance under the Articles of Confederation proved conclusively that a system with much greater state sovereignty was utterly unworkable. 

« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 03:57:58 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9918 on: April 12, 2021, 12:10:52 am »

The problem is that Americans have lost liberties and their money over the years despite the founders intent to protect them with the constitution.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9919 on: April 12, 2021, 09:21:22 am »

The problem is that Americans have lost liberties and their money over the years despite the founders intent to protect them with the constitution.

Well, that certainly clears up the issue.  Let's move on.

Hopefully, a reasonable explanation will emerge, not only for the shooting, but also for why it is illegal to hang an air freshener on your rear view mirror. I wonder if having a bobblehead on your dash is illegal too? How about a plastic Jesus? There could be First Amendment implications.

Mom: Minnesota Cops Killed Son After Stopping Him on an Air-Freshener Violation

https://www.thedailybeast.com/daunte-wrights-mom-says-minnesota-police-killed-her-son-over-an-air-freshener-violation

Meanwhile, Derek Chauvin's lawyer was up early this morning drafting a motion for a mistrial.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 09:42:23 am by faberryman »
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