Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[dreed]

Did you actually read the article you quoted? The point was that the US and UK governmentd took part in the vaccine development and were successful. The EU relied on the market and failed.

It's simpler than that - both the US & UK ramped up domestic production of the vaccines. This was the smart thing to do. It wasn't necessary to be the developer of the vaccine - the ability to manufacture it under license would also help a domestic market. If you were relying on being a consumer and getting a fair deal from the market, you were always going to lose.

[Alan Klein]

Did you actually read the article you quoted? The point was that the US and UK governmentd took part in the vaccine development and were successful. The EU relied on the market and failed.

Governments are customers in the free-market just like anyone else.  They have to respond accordingly just like everyone else.  If I now want to expedite my emergency generator installation, it's going to cost me more as I have to provide an additional monetary incentive to the contractor and possibly the manufacturer.  That's what the American government did.

[jeremyrh]

Governments are customers in the free-market just like anyone else.  They have to respond accordingly just like everyone else.  If I now want to expedite my emergency generator installation, it's going to cost me more as I have to provide an additional monetary incentive to the contractor and possibly the manufacturer.  That's what the American government did.

Struggling to work out what your generator has to do with vaccines?  No. Don't explain. Forget it.

[LesPalenik]

Struggling to work out what your generator has to do with vaccines?  No. Don't explain. Forget it.

Maybe he meant that generators are used as a backup power for the ultra-low freezers used to store COVID vaccines.

[Alan Klein]

Struggling to work out what your generator has to do with vaccines?  No. Don't explain. Forget it.

What's difficult to understand? Now that there's a long list of customers who want generators, just as there's a long list of countries that want vaccines, you have to wait on long lines. My America and apparently your GB were smart enough to get their orders in early and work with the vaccine manufacturers to expedite delivery.  That's what my neighbor did who already has his generator installed while I'm sitting on my butt hoping some storm doesn't knock out my electricity and melt my stored film. Free markets at work. The early bird gets the worm.

[Alan Klein]

Biden found a way to use our empty hotels in the Covid era.  Maybe he can get Mexico to pay for it.

Biden is spending $86 million on hotel rooms for migrants as his administration struggles to handle the surge of families and kids trying to come to the US
https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-to-spend-86-million-hotel-rooms-migrants-near-border-2021-3

[jeremyrh]

What's difficult to understand? Now that there's a long list of customers who want generators, just as there's a long list of countries that want vaccines, you have to wait on long lines. My America and apparently your GB were smart enough to get their orders in early and work with the vaccine manufacturers to expedite delivery.  That's what my neighbor did who already has his generator installed while I'm sitting on my butt hoping some storm doesn't knock out my electricity and melt my stored film. Free markets at work. The early bird gets the worm.

Well that still doesn't explain the connection between vaccines and generators, but I hadn't really imagined that it would. 

However - the point of the article you posted was precisely that the UK and US DIDN'T just put an order in and wait in line, they funded the R&D. As a matter of fact the EU put their order in BEFORE the UK, but we got our supplies priorotised because the UK govt had been involved at start-up funding stage.

[Alan Klein]

Well that still doesn't explain the connection between vaccines and generators, but I hadn't really imagined that it would. 

However - the point of the article you posted was precisely that the UK and US DIDN'T just put an order in and wait in line, they funded the R&D. As a matter of fact the EU put their order in BEFORE the UK, but we got our supplies priorotised because the UK govt had been involved at start-up funding stage.

Paying extra and negotiating better terms are part of the free market. Providing facilities to lower the manufacturer's price and speed production is to the government's advantage.  It's no different when I allow my contractor use my electricity for his tools to do his work in my house.  It would cost me more if I forced him to provide his own power with a portable generator. These are all things worked out in a free market between buyer and seller.

In the vaccine case, however, the government is the buyer and customer, just like in the case of tanks, aircraft carriers, or construction of a government building.  But it is still a free market in the sense buyers and sellers negotiate prices and terms.  What wouldn't be a free market is if the government subsidizes let's say the purchase of green cars or solar panels purchased by private buyers.   In that case, the government affects the free markets but they aren't a customer.  They ought to stay out of it and let the actual buyers and sellers work things out.  In fact, if it weren't for the government subsidies, there might not even be market in those areas. They're not valuable enough to anyone.

[jeremyrh]

I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over again. If you think a market where the government funds research, indemnifies a manufacturer and commits to buying a huge order is "the free market" then go ahead. Be my guest. Maybe you aren't so opposed to "socialism" as you think.

[Alan Klein]

I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over again. If you think a market where the government funds research, indemnifies a manufacturer and commits to buying a huge order is "the free market" then go ahead. Be my guest. Maybe you aren't so opposed to "socialism" as you think.

You can't have a total free market when you have a government.  Especially one that spends a huge portion of the GDP and has the power to approve or disapprove the product like vaccines.  I agree that less government means more free markets. But we weren't discussing free markets in the abstract. We were talking about how different governments purchased vaccines and why some were more successful than others. I don;t know what happened in GB.  But in America, Trump used his "getting the job done on time" experience in the building trades to execute vaccine purchases more successfully than other leaders.

[LesPalenik]

Canadian lobbyists attack Netflix children's film for 'anti-oil propaganda'.

The animated film Bigfoot Family has come under fire in Canada – but not because of its stilted dialogue or confusing plot. Instead, a government-funded lobbying group has targeted the movie – a fantasy epic featuring a human family whose father is Bigfoot – on the grounds that it “peddles lies” about the oil and gas industry. The Netflix film, panned by critics, centres on an energy company’s nefarious scheme to detonate a bomb in a pristine Alaska valley to flood it with crude oil.

Although the film is set in the US, the Canadian Energy Centre, funded by the province of Alberta, has launched a campaign against the movie, which it says “brainwashes” children with “anti-oil and gas propaganda”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/canada-lobby-group-bigfoot-family-oil-and-gas


Not to be left behind, the Canadian Conservative party voted not to recognize climate crisis as real. This will help Trudeau's liberals to stay in power for another term.

Canada’s main opposition Conservative party members have voted down a proposal to recognize the climate crisis as real, in a blow to their new leader’s efforts to embrace environmentally friendly policies before a likely federal election this year. The rejected motion included the willingness to act against climate risks and to make highly polluting businesses take more responsibility to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/20/canada-conservative-party-climate-change-real

[jeremyrh]

[same old stuff]

Yeah, Alan, whatever.

[Peter McLennan]

You can't have a total free market when you have a government.

Therefore, there are no free markets.

[Alan Klein]

Canadian lobbyists attack Netflix children's film for 'anti-oil propaganda'.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/canada-lobby-group-bigfoot-family-oil-and-gas


Not to be left behind, the Canadian Conservative party voted not to recognize climate crisis as real. This will help Trudeau's liberals to stay in power for another term.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/20/canada-conservative-party-climate-change-real

How is the cancellation of XL pipeline playing in Canada?

[Robert Roaldi]

How is the cancellation of XL pipeline playing in Canada?

Honestly, you've mentioned it more often than anyone else I know. It's a big yawn. Alberta bitumen is only profitable at $100 per barrel and up. The pipeline is not high on anyone's agenda from what I can tell. Could be I'm talking to the wrong people, of course.

Also, if you asked most people, they couldn't tell you which pipeline this is anyway. Is it the one that goes to the US or the one that goes across BC to the Pacific? There have been so many names over the years of various pipelines that it's a blur in most people's minds. Until one of them bursts, like they're not supposed to do, then they are in the news for 2-3 days then disappear because the spilt oil doesn't affect anyone in Toronto or Vancouver. 

There are a few people I know, who are not representative of anything, who no longer consider the US a reliable enough trading partner and are leaning to spending the money to build our own refineries, but they are a minority. I have some sympathy for that point of view, but it's 50 years too late.

(Added later, clicked too soon.) There are quite a few I know who are happy about the pipeline not going ahead, as they regard that as last century tech and that strategically we should be looking at doing other things.

[Alan Klein]

Honestly, you've mentioned it more often than anyone else I know. It's a big yawn. Alberta bitumen is only profitable at $100 per barrel and up. The pipeline is not high on anyone's agenda from what I can tell. Could be I'm talking to the wrong people, of course.

Also, if you asked most people, they couldn't tell you which pipeline this is anyway. Is it the one that goes to the US or the one that goes across BC to the Pacific? There have been so many names over the years of various pipelines that it's a blur in most people's minds. Until one of them bursts, like they're not supposed to do, then they are in the news for 2-3 days then disappear because the spilt oil doesn't affect anyone in Toronto or Vancouver. 

There are a few people I know, who are not representative of anything, who no longer consider the US a reliable enough trading partner and are leaning to spending the money to build our own refineries, but they are a minority. I have some sympathy for that point of view, but it's 50 years too late.

But Canada is a huge fossil fuel supplier to the world.   Switching over to green has to have a huge impact on its wealth. It must be a major issue economically and politically in your country.  I can't believe no one's interested. It sounds like you're downplaying it. 

[Alan Klein]

Your PM was pretty upset when Biden cancelled it.  Why?

[Alan Klein]

Interesting statistics about Canadian oil.  No wonder PM Trudeau was upset.

The area's vast unconventional petroleum deposits add up to proven reserves of 165.4 billion barrels—the third-largest total in the world after Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.

Canadian oil and natural gas provided $110 billion to Canada's gross domestic product (GDP) in 2019, supported more than 500,000 jobs across the country in 2019 and provided $10 billion in average annual revenue to governments for the period 2017 to 2019. This revenue helps pay for roads, school and hospitals.

[LesPalenik]

How is the cancellation of XL pipeline playing in Canada?

You mean the one for transporting vaccines? Most Canadians have other things to worry about. My next project will be building a raised garden bed.

[LesPalenik]

Interesting statistics about Canadian oil.  No wonder PM Trudeau was upset.

The area's vast unconventional petroleum deposits add up to proven reserves of 165.4 billion barrels—the third-largest total in the world after Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.

Canadian oil and natural gas provided $110 billion to Canada's gross domestic product (GDP) in 2019, supported more than 500,000 jobs across the country in 2019 and provided $10 billion in average annual revenue to governments for the period 2017 to 2019. This revenue helps pay for roads, school and hospitals.

Thanks for pointing it out.
Presently, most Canadian oil to USA is transported by trucks. Unfortunately, that's not as clean as transporting it inside a pipeline.
One positive effect of the cancelled southbound pipeline is that it will speed up development of alternative energy in Alberta. The electricity is transported cleanly to USA through the existing electricity grid.

Growth in Alberta's renewable energy sector should continue its upward trend, experts say, with one forecast anticipating a surge of projects that could have the province poised to be the Canadian leader in utility-scale wind and solar capacity as early as 2025. Rystad Energy tracks utility-scale wind and solar assets with at least one MWac (megawatt alternating current) in capacity. It forecasts that 83 per cent of the combined utility-scale wind and solar capacity built in Canada over the next five years will be in Alberta. That wouldn't include smaller renewable development such as residential rooftop solar.

With the forecast growth, Rystad analyst Felix Tan expects Alberta will have the largest combined total of utility-scale wind and solar capacity in the country by the middle of the decade, overtaking Ontario.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/alberta-wind-and-solar-future-1.5728757

U.S. electricity trade with Canada is increasing, providing more economic and reliability benefits to both the United States and Canada. Although the amount of electricity imported over the Canadian border is a small part of the overall U.S. power supply, the transmission connections linking Canada and the United States are an important component of the electricity markets in northern states.

Overall, Canada is a net exporter of electricity to the United States, and most of its power needs are met by hydroelectricity. Large hydroelectric projects in British Columbia, Manitoba, Quebec, and Newfoundland and Labrador have significantly increased the country's generation capacity. On a net basis, Canada exports electricity mainly to New England, New York, and the Midwest states, while the United States exports electricity primarily from the Pacific Northwest states to the Canadian province of British Columbia.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=21992