Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

He's good until he runs out of fingers.

Marco Rubio has seen those tiny fingers up close. 😂

[Alan Klein]

That is NOT what the Constitution requires! Look at the words again. The Constitution SAYS: "When the President of the United States is tried...". Joe Biden was the President of the United States when Trump was tried. Trump was NOT. There is ONLY ONE president at any given time.

That is completely false. Senator Schumer did NOT assign the Presiding Officer of the Senate. The RULES OF PROCEDURE AND PRACTICE IN THE SENATE WHEN SITTING ON IMPEACHMENT TRIALS - Last revised on Aug. 16, 1986 determines who presides. Those rules required the President pro tempore of the United States Senate to preside. President pro tempore of the United States Senate is an office created and mandated by the Constitution. Patrick Leahy holds that office which by long-standing senate tradition falls to the longest serving member of the majority party.

No, it was his duty to perform the role of Presiding Officer. There is no presiding judge as the Senate is the sole arbiter of all rules and procedures during a trial on impeachment.

The United States Constitution: "The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments." [Capitalization as in original document]

But that's my point.  He's neither the president which would have required the Chief justice to preside nor is he another official when the President pro tempore of the Senate would preside.  Trump falls into a gap of being an ex-official where the constitution does not designate a presiding officer.  That's because the writers of the constitution apparently had no intent to impeach a president that is out of office nor have the senate try him.  This viewpoint matches Judge J. Michael Luttig, formerly of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals opinion in the podcast I posted above if you wish to listen to it. I came to my similar views before hearing Luttig.  So my views aren't that extreme or illogical.  In any case, we'll have to wait until there's another impeachment when the senate finds the ex-official guilty and imposes a penalty.  Then the Supreme Court will be able to hear the appeal and settle the constitutional issues at that time.

What's really problematic with allowing ex-official to be impeached is that Congress could go back and impeach any ex-official they chose to impeach, even going back years.  Can you imagine the mess we'd be in if each political side tried to get even with the other side by impeaching out-of-office officials including cabinet members, VP's, Secretaries of State, etc who plan on running for office in the future?    Just like they tried to do with Trump to prevent him from running as a candidate in 2024, it would become a regular thing to stop potential future candidates who plan to run for president.  It would poison the political process. 

[TechTalk]

I wrote and posted this argument:

The Chief Justice presides when a President currently holding office is tried. The Presiding Officer of the Senate presides over all other impeachment trials. Those facts have no bearing on the strength or weakness of any argument regarding the constitutionality of impeachment or trial of former office holders. The strength or weakness of such arguments is determined by history, precedent, reason, logic, and the Constitution. A reasonable and logical reading of the constitutional provisions for impeachment and trial has resulted in multiple historical precedents being established that it is constitutional to hold previous office holders accountable for their actions while in office thru the political process of impeachment and trial for the very same reasons that the framers established the impeachment process for removal and potential disqualification of current office holders—to protect the nation from individuals whose conduct represents a danger if allowed to remain in office or to seek office in the future.

In your reply to my post, which you quoted, you concluded:

Your point is just another argument that the Senate trial was unconstitutional. 

Clearly and obviously to anyone that actually read what I wrote, my argument was precisely the opposite of your conclusion. Frankly, I found that response to be so oblivious to what I had taken the time and trouble to write that I found it offensive and obnoxious. Which is why I gave the brief reply...

Only if read with both mind and eyes closed.

Your response:

I was able to appreciate your arguments.

Again, clearly and obviously NOT the case as evidenced by your reply and conclusion. To condense my argument to the core salient points and conclusion: "it is constitutional to hold previous office holders accountable for their actions while in office... the framers established the impeachment process... to protect the nation from individuals whose conduct [while in office] represents a danger if allowed... to seek office in the future."

Your reply was in no way responsive to that and instead just repeated a circular argument regarding who presides over impeachment trials and an assertion over the relevance of it. If you are unable to understand why people become frustrated in attempting to have a meaningful discussion with you, please try reading the above a few times and try to absorb and understand it.

[Alan Klein]

I wrote and posted this argument:

In your reply to my post, which you quoted, you concluded:

Clearly and obviously to anyone that actually read what I wrote, my argument was precisely the opposite of your conclusion. Frankly, I found that response to be so oblivious to what I had taken the time and trouble to write that I found it offensive and obnoxious. Which is why I gave the brief reply...

Your response:

Again, clearly and obviously NOT the case as evidenced by your reply and conclusion. To condense my argument to the core salient points and conclusion: "it is constitutional to hold previous office holders accountable for their actions while in office... the framers established the impeachment process... to protect the nation from individuals whose conduct [while in office] represents a danger if allowed... to seek office in the future."

Your reply was in no way responsive to that and instead just repeated a circular argument regarding who presides over impeachment trials and an assertion over the relevance of it. If you are unable to understand why people become frustrated in attempting to have a meaningful discussion with you, please try reading the above a few times and try to absorb and understand it.

The main purpose of impeachment is to get the guy out of office.  If he or she so violated their office and committed treason or other high crimes and misdemeanors, then they still can be tried in criminal court, even after they leave office.

Regarding frustrations, these are a two-way street when people's opinions differ. That's why there are horse races and elections.  And cases before the Supreme Court. 

[JoeKitchen]

My God, this argument is still going?  You guys need to find something better to do. 

Flights to FL are hovering around $50 round trip.  My buddies and I are thinking about hitting the links this weekend and enjoying a few drinks in Ybor City afterwards. 

(I'm actually being serious.) 

[Alan Klein]

My God, this argument is still going?  You guys need to find something better to do. 

Flights to FL are hovering around $50 round trip.  My buddies and I are thinking about hitting the links this weekend and enjoying a few drinks in Ybor City afterwards. 

(I'm actually being serious.) 

Glad you're doing well.  Florida seems to be the place to go.  I have friends here that have done their usual snowbird winter move to Florida.    My wife's cousins went down there and even got their shots (they're seniors) even though they're New Yorkers.  Here's an article I was reading about the move to Florida from NYC.  OK, Palm Beach is expensive.  But you'll get the idea.  Have fun with golf.
https://nypost.com/2021/02/13/new-yorkers-are-fleeing-to-palm-beachand-businesses-are-too/

[faberryman]

Regarding frustrations, these are a two-way street when people's opinions differ.

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.” - Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

[JoeKitchen]

Glad you're doing well.  Florida seems to be the place to go.  I have friends here that have done their usual snowbird winter move to Florida.    My wife's cousins went down there and even got their shots (they're seniors) even though they're New Yorkers.  Here's an article I was reading about the move to Florida from NYC.  OK, Palm Beach is expensive.  But you'll get the idea.  Have fun with golf.
https://nypost.com/2021/02/13/new-yorkers-are-fleeing-to-palm-beachand-businesses-are-too/

To be honest, I feel like it would be best to kick the tires in a few different southern places right now.  Who knows what will happen. 

Personally I fear this $1.9T completely unnecessary package will cause inflation, probably not this year, but next.  Really, it is unavoidable.  When your national debt is as high as ours is getting, the only way to offset the cost is to devalue the currency.  I am betting we are in for a world of financial hurt after the sugar high the Dems are about to give the country ends, and the South is looking a lot better positioned due to them not closing down as much.  I have been reading about economic activity in FL and it is looking amazing.  Not to mention a world where masks are not required (as much) sounds great to me. 

I also feel like we are looking at a rebirth of federalism through states just not paying attention to the Federal government.  First we had sanctuary immigration blue states.  If Biden manages to get just half of his coo coo for coco puffs policies, I also foresee red states just ignoring it, like liberal states did with immigration.  Although I would prefer a return to federalism through policy measures, I'll certainly take this as well. 

So I was in TX last month checking out Dallas, and FL seems like a spot to check out as well considering the economic growth occurring there.  I'm thinking about making a road trip out of it, bouncing from Tampa to Orlando to Miami. 


PS, I also read that NY is thinking about instituting a tax on all stock trades.  If this happens, the NYSE will move, probably down south.  The Mayor of Miami has been courting all the major financial firms in NY with decent success.  Although it would be hard to say where it would move, but considering, Miami would be a top location.  If that tax happens, the NE, especially NY, will essentially be finished.  Just something to think about. 

[JoeKitchen]

Glad you're doing well.  Florida seems to be the place to go.  I have friends here that have done their usual snowbird winter move to Florida.    My wife's cousins went down there and even got their shots (they're seniors) even though they're New Yorkers.  Here's an article I was reading about the move to Florida from NYC.  OK, Palm Beach is expensive.  But you'll get the idea.  Have fun with golf.
https://nypost.com/2021/02/13/new-yorkers-are-fleeing-to-palm-beachand-businesses-are-too/

I just took a look at the article.  Great to see pictures of so many bright smiles, something the world has been deprived of in the last year. 

[PeterAit]

Like I've said before, lots of people invoke the "founding fathers" and the "constitution' and "freedom" and such, but that's just code. What they really want is the freedom to conform. The various groups really stand for "Christian" white supremacy and don't want trans people living next door, as if it's any of their damn business who lives next door. Same way lots of business leaders preach competition and the free market but only when it works in their favour. I mean, there's a chronic shortage of retirement home staff in Quebec but their salaries never get above minimum wage. I guess supply and demand is context-dependent then. There's a lot of talk of freedom of speech but there are still people who say that the four students shot at Kent State got what was coming to them. Imagine if four Proud Boys had been randomly gunned down at the Capitol !

Sorry for the rambling rant, I'm just so sick of the hypocritical redneck bullshit. I'm going to have to tune out of this crap for a while, it's not doing me any good.

Well said, bravo.

[digitaldog]

Great to see pictures of so many bright smiles something the world has been deprived of in the last year.

Including (as of today) the 2,396,408 deaths from Covid-19, reported to WHO, deprived of their lives in addition to their loved ones. 

[JoeKitchen]

Including (as of today) the 2,396,408 deaths from Covid-19, reported to WHO, deprived of their lives in addition to their loved ones. 

Yes, along with the ~145M that die per year anyway. 

Although my heart goes out to the families and friends, Covid-19 is not the Black Death.  Neither a third of the population is going to die from it nor will this disease largely disappear in time.  Instead it will be with us for a very long time, if not forever, and is largely inert to those whom are healthy and under 65.  Even if you are over 65, yet still healthy, you have little to fear from this, albeit a bit more then me. 

So, this idea that we should continue to keep the world shut down is absurd.  It is also absurd to push the notion that each singular person is responsible for the health of the entire world. When the vast majority of those over 65 get vaccinated, which we are fast tracked on the path towards, there are zero scientific reasons to continue masking and social distancing.  That is when I plan on being done with this entire Kabuki theatre.  Albeit, I am sure the current administration will find some other purely political reason to stay locked down like they are doing schools, ignoring all of the science, and force ther CDC to suddenly, and obviously for politics, change course. 

As such, I am looking forward to continuing to travel and work, which I need to travel for anyway, not allowing my skill to stagnate, as I have been.  I shot three projects last week, none in my home state.  The world is already over this, not to mention the idea of lockdowns being effective has been shot to hell by FL.

[LesPalenik]

I just took a look at the article.  Great to see pictures of so many bright smiles, something the world has been deprived of in the last year.

No wonder they are smiling. They were not included among the 29,000 Floridians who died from the C19 virus.

[digitaldog]

No wonder they are smiling. They were not included among the 29,000 Floridians who died from the C19 virus.

As you can see, doesn't really matter: 145 million ww die anyway.

[Alan Klein]

To be honest, I feel like it would be best to kick the tires in a few different southern places right now.  Who knows what will happen. 

Personally I fear this $1.9T completely unnecessary package will cause inflation, probably not this year, but next.  Really, it is unavoidable.  When your national debt is as high as ours is getting, the only way to offset the cost is to devalue the currency.  I am betting we are in for a world of financial hurt after the sugar high the Dems are about to give the country ends, and the South is looking a lot better positioned due to them not closing down as much.  I have been reading about economic activity in FL and it is looking amazing.  Not to mention a world where masks are not required (as much) sounds great to me. 

I also feel like we are looking at a rebirth of federalism through states just not paying attention to the Federal government.  First we had sanctuary immigration blue states.  If Biden manages to get just half of his coo coo for coco puffs policies, I also foresee red states just ignoring it, like liberal states did with immigration.  Although I would prefer a return to federalism through policy measures, I'll certainly take this as well. 

So I was in TX last month checking out Dallas, and FL seems like a spot to check out as well considering the economic growth occurring there.  I'm thinking about making a road trip out of it, bouncing from Tampa to Orlando to Miami. 


PS, I also read that NY is thinking about instituting a tax on all stock trades.  If this happens, the NYSE will move, probably down south.  The Mayor of Miami has been courting all the major financial firms in NY with decent success.  Although it would be hard to say where it would move, but considering, Miami would be a top location.  If that tax happens, the NE, especially NY, will essentially be finished.  Just something to think about. 

I get my pension from NYS so I hope they stay healthy.  As a New Yorker most of my life, it's heartbreaking to see the city closed up the way it is when I visit there once in a while.   Spending the $1.9 is just adding to the debt besides setting us up to similar stagflation that I remember back in the 1970s and 80s with high unemployment and inflation of double digits.  Of course, back then you could get double digit interest rates to make up for some of the increases.  That won't happen this time.  Florida's nice this time of year.  Doesn't get so hot and humid. 

[jeremyrh]

As you can see, doesn't really matter: 145 million ww die anyway.

But not Joe, so that's OK.

[jeremyrh]

Yes, along with the ~145M that die per year anyway. 

Although my heart goes out to the families and friends, Covid-19 is not the Black Death.  Neither a third of the population is going to die from it nor will this disease largely disappear in time.  Instead it will be with us for a very long time, if not forever, and is largely inert to those whom are healthy and under 65.  Even if you are over 65, yet still healthy, you have little to fear from this, albeit a bit more then me. 

So, this idea that we should continue to keep the world shut down is absurd.  It is also absurd to push the notion that each singular person is responsible for the health of the entire world. When the vast majority of those over 65 get vaccinated, which we are fast tracked on the path towards, there are zero scientific reasons to continue masking and social distancing.

Except that younger people DO suffer from Covid, and apart from that having a huge reservoir of infections is a perfect environment for allowing new mutations to develop which will negate the value fo the vaccination.

Still, as long as you're OK, no need to bother about anyone else, eh?

[LesPalenik]

Except that younger people DO suffer from Covid, and apart from that having a huge reservoir of infections is a perfect environment for allowing new mutations to develop which will negate the value fo the vaccination.
Still, as long as you're OK, no need to bother about anyone else, eh?

Most people who get sick with Covid are not the same after.
Just look at Trump. After his bout with Covid, he got even more irritable and stranger than before taking all those disinfectants.

[jeremyrh]

not to mention the idea of lockdowns being effective has been shot to hell by FL.

Not sure what argument you're making here

1 Florida had a strict lockdown and yet cases went up (it didn't),
or
2. Florida had no meaningful lockdown but cases went down (they didn't).

Maybe you have a better idea how to control an extremely infectious virus?

[JoeKitchen]

Except that younger people DO suffer from Covid, and apart from that having a huge reservoir of infections is a perfect environment for allowing new mutations to develop which will negate the value fo the vaccination.

Still, as long as you're OK, no need to bother about anyone else, eh?

Just like some younger people die of heart disease.  Just like some younger people die of cancer.  Just like some younger people die of diabetes.

However, the likelihood of death from these if you are younger is so extremely low it is not something worth worrying about all day long, just like C-19. 

So, if you want to ignore all stats and not perform any risk assessment, play Chicken Little as if the sky is falling, be my guest.  I'm not. 

Also, as I said before, this idea that every singular person is responsible for the health of the entire world is absurd.  And the idea that we should continue to stay locked down with all of the mounting mental health defects it is causing is also absurd.  If by do my small part by ignoring these draconian rules and living my life gets others to as well, ending this sooner, allowing people to rebuild their mental health, then so be it.