US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[MattBurt]

Who said that?

Lou Dobbs? Just a guess...

[Alan Klein]

I think you all are right.  Biden should confirm his position that he will shut down the economy at the first hint there might be a problem with Covid spreading.  Trump needs all the help he can get.

[John Camp]

No one is twisting the breadwinners' arms.  It's up to them.  Like our Joe Kitchen or Craig Lamson here, it's a personal decision.  If they want to chance it, well that's what liberty is all about.  We don't need government telling us how to live all the time.  For old guys like me who are retired and not working, we can stay home to be safe.  I still get my Social Security and pension.  I shop by phone.  I do curbside pickups or have deliveries to my home.  But even I have to chance things.  I've been to NYC three times for medical and dental reasons.  Ditto here in New Jersey.  I don't like taking chances even with masks and 6 feet.  But I have to get on with life too.  So do people who work.  Government support only goes so far.  What good is money from the government if they don't let you open your store, restaurant, gym, barber shop, or photography and wedding store?  You spend your whole life putting it together.  It provides security for you and your family.  It's not easy to tell your children they'll have to tighten their belts because daddy and mommy lost their business.

NYC government is begging businesses not to close down or leave NYC.  Come back and open your stores they're being implored. Things are so dire there  even anti-Trump, left leaning Democrat ideologies like Gov Cuomo and Mayor Di Blasio know the city will fail if we don't get back to some form of normality.  They're asking millionaires and billionaires not to leave.  Cuomo is against raising their taxes because he knows they'll move to states with lower state taxes or none at all like Florida.  Higher taxes will bankrupt the state quicker.

How happy would you be to have Joe Kitchen leave an unmasked photo shoot and then come around and hang out in your...kitchen? Because that's apparently what he's doing to others of his potential victims. Joe may come through completely undamaged by the virus, but if he gets it, and spreads it, will everybody be unharmed? That's the problem the rest of us have. If Joe doesn't mind getting the virus, that's his problem; our problem is that he spreads it to others.

[Manoli]

That's the problem the rest of us have. If Joe doesn't mind getting the virus, that's his problem; our problem is that he spreads it to others.

... and *THAT* is so bleedin’ obvious that it beggars belief that it still needs repeating.

Alan Klein, 
please, please - read more, post less.

[TechTalk]

I think you all are right.  Biden should confirm his position that he will shut down the economy at the first hint there might be a problem with Covid spreading.  Trump needs all the help he can get.

Biden says "I would listen to the scientists" and in your mind you hear "at the first hint there might be a problem". This is the problem with devotion to an ideology. It distorts your perception of reality.

[Alan Klein]

How happy would you be to have Joe Kitchen leave an unmasked photo shoot and then come around and hang out in your...kitchen? Because that's apparently what he's doing to others of his potential victims. Joe may come through completely undamaged by the virus, but if he gets it, and spreads it, will everybody be unharmed? That's the problem the rest of us have. If Joe doesn't mind getting the virus, that's his problem; our problem is that he spreads it to others.

No. I wouldn't let Joe into my kitchen unless I chose to do that and had a good reason for it.  No friends have visited me in my home since this started. I don't invite them. That's my freedom. I'm 75 on SS with a pension. Older people like me don't have to go to work. Others do.   Two days ago, a contractor without a mask came by at my invitation to survey an installation of a emergency generator for my home.  He was 72.    I was annoyed and he put a mask on.  We did business outside.  His mask kept slipping beneath his nose.  That bothered me but I knew I was taking a risk regardless.  I could have decided not to install a generator.  That was my choice.  My neighbor, another old guy, also had to be persuaded to put a mask on when I went to talk to him about the generator.  His mask kept slipping beneath his nose too.  I think we need tailored masks. 

None of us needed government to tell us what to do.  We all felt it was in our interest to take a chance or modify our behavior accordingly.   He had a business to keep going.  I wanted an emergency generator to protect my family and home during the next power outage. (We lost power for 4 days during the storm two weeks ago.)  While I think Joe ought to wear a mask when around other people, that's not the main question.  That's a straw man. The main arguments is whether we should be shutting the economy down again as Biden proposes.  People have figured out the risk and should be allowed to decide whether they want to work or not.  We don't need government deciding for them.   

[TechTalk]

The main arguments is whether we should be shutting the economy down again as Biden proposes.

Biden isn't proposing that we should shut down the economy.

That's a straw man.

Yes. Yes it is indeed.

* straw man - an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

[Alan Klein]

Biden isn't proposing that we should shut down the economy.

Yes. Yes it is indeed.

* straw man - an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Biden wants to shut down the economy if scientists recommend it.  Trump takes the opposite position as most governors and people do especially those out of work and who have small businesses.  But if you think Biden is right, I encourage you to support his position.

[Peter McLennan]

I'm with the scientists.  All the way.
Politicians?  Uh....

[TechTalk]

Biden wants to shut down the economy if scientists recommend it.  Trump takes the opposite position as most governors and people do especially those out of work and who have small businesses.  But if you think Biden is right, I encourage you to support his position.

Biden said that he would be "prepared to do whatever it takes" to save lives and control the virus and would shut down if scientists determine that's what is needed. Being prepared and willing to do something is not the same as "proposing" an action as something that you "want" to do. But if you hear what is said, you remember a distorted version that conforms to what you want to believe.

Transcript

MUIR: You talk about the science. If you're sworn in come January, and, and we have coronavirus and the flu combining, which many scientists have said is a real possibility, would you be prepared to shut this country down again?

BIDEN: I will be prepared to do whatever it takes to save lives because we cannot get the country moving until we control the virus. That is the fundamental flaw of this administration's thinking to begin with. In order to keep the country running and moving and the economy growing, and people employed, you have to fix the virus, you have to deal with the virus.

MUIR: So if the scientists say shut it down?

BIDEN: I would shut it down, I would listen to the scientists.

[Alan Klein]

Biden said that he would be "prepared to do whatever it takes" to save lives and control the virus and would shut down if scientists determine that's what is needed. Being prepared and willing to do something is not the same as "proposing" an action as something that you "want" to do. But if you hear what is said, you remember a distorted version that conforms to what you want to believe.

Transcript

MUIR: You talk about the science. If you're sworn in come January, and, and we have coronavirus and the flu combining, which many scientists have said is a real possibility, would you be prepared to shut this country down again?

BIDEN: I will be prepared to do whatever it takes to save lives because we cannot get the country moving until we control the virus. That is the fundamental flaw of this administration's thinking to begin with. In order to keep the country running and moving and the economy growing, and people employed, you have to fix the virus, you have to deal with the virus.

MUIR: So if the scientists say shut it down?

BIDEN: I would shut it down, I would listen to the scientists.

Political doublespeak.  Biden's good at that. They take all positions so they can flip-flop later. 

[Alan Klein]

I'm with the scientists.  All the way.
Politicians?  Uh....

You forgot economists. What if you chief economist tell you, "MR. President.  If you shut down the country again. We'll have millions of people starving.  There will be social unrest like we've never seen.  People will have no place to live.  Homeless on the street will look like California.  The Fed can;t print money forever.  You have to keep the economy open come hell or high water."

The scientist might say that we have to shut it down to save lives medically.  A real conundrum.  Insolvable to any bit of perfection. Damned if you do.  Damned if you don't.

It might be that a midcourse has to be done.  The economy suffers and more people get Covid.  But neither is catastrophic.

War is like that.

[TechTalk]

Political doublespeak.  Biden's good at that. They take all positions so they can flip-flop later.

Based on what Biden actually said and previous statements he's made, my takeaway from the transcript is that Biden believes that the only sustainable way to stabilize the economy for the long term and get it moving and growing again is to get the virus under control and he's prepared to do whatever it takes and will listen to advice from medical experts in order to make that a reality. In order for the economy to return to some normalcy, people have to feel safe to go out and interact with people again.

But you say that it's, "his position that he that he will shut down the economy at the first hint there might be a problem" or "shutting the economy down again as Biden proposes" even though he's not proposing that, only stating that he's prepared to do so if needed. Who's engaged in "political doublespeak" here?

When called on the fact that Biden hadn't made any such proposal or statements, then you try to clean it up a bit with "Biden wants to shut down the economy if scientists recommend it. Who is the flip-flopper?

[TechTalk]

It might be that a midcourse has to be done.  The economy suffers and more people get Covid.  But neither is catastrophic.

It might seem catastrophic to the people who die and to their loved ones, and to people left with permanent impairment.

War is like that.

War is national leadership calling on its citizens to work together for a common cause in combating a dangerous threat and uniting the nation to support a plan to do so. Something that we haven't seen yet in this crisis.

[KLaban]

I'm not locking down again.  I really dont care anymore, and no one is going to make me care enough to follow another lockdown let along support it. 

Sorry, we just cant live like this anymore for an extremely survivable virus.

Tell that to the 177,000 compatriots who sadly haven't.

[jeremyrh]

Where do you want to be on this graph showing the link between economic hit and covid hit?

https://twitter.com/proftimbale/status/1297883905761173504?s=21

[KLaban]

Where do you want to be on this graph showing the link between economic hit and covid hit?

https://twitter.com/proftimbale/status/1297883905761173504?s=21

Good to see the UK tops the charts at something.

World class and world beating.

:-(

[JoeKitchen]

Survivable for you, perhaps (or perhaps not) but less so for the older people you come into contact with. Still, you're the only one who matters, right?

Those older people can choose to stay in their house if they feel that way.

Like I mentioned before, for those who want to stay inside, making the lockdown voluntary or required matters not.  For those who don't, it makes a huge difference. 

And after 165+ days of this, sorry, but I just don't care anymore. 

Tell that to the 177,000 compatriots who sadly haven't.

Along with the 3M others who will die this year as well, many of which would be prevented if only ...

[jeremyrh]

Those older people can choose to stay in their house if they feel that way.

Yep - just as long as you can do as you please.

Like I mentioned before, for those who want to stay inside, making the lockdown voluntary or required matters not.  For those who don't, it makes a huge difference. 

And after 165+ days of this, sorry, but I just don't care anymore.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw - "If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk".

[JoeKitchen]

How happy would you be to have Joe Kitchen leave an unmasked photo shoot and then come around and hang out in your...kitchen? Because that's apparently what he's doing to others of his potential victims. Joe may come through completely undamaged by the virus, but if he gets it, and spreads it, will everybody be unharmed? That's the problem the rest of us have. If Joe doesn't mind getting the virus, that's his problem; our problem is that he spreads it to others ...

who can stay inside and limit who is allowed in their houses if they are so concerned.  If you insist on locking yourself away in your basement for the rest of the year and into next Spring, be my guest.  But don't dictate your fears, and their consequences, onto me. 

As I said before, this is an unsustainable path we are on, and we need to get back to living.  What life is a life worth living in constant fear and trepidation, being castrated from all the marrow happiness and fulfillment brings? 

And FYI, for all indoor shoots, I require my staff (and myself) to wear masks.  I just refuse to wear masks outside and give into that hysteria when it has been shown it is nearly impossible to catch this outside.