Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 257376 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #700 on: August 14, 2020, 10:46:56 pm »

I kind of got lost in all the above about court cases and I don't know what else. Harris was born in the USA, right? That's my understanding from the few things I've read. That makes her American, doesn't it? So she can run for office, right. Isn't that all there is to it?

Trump or his spokespeople can just make up the dumbest shit and some people will go along with it. Is that's what going on here? Is that where America is now?
Republican Sen. John McCain who ran for president against Obama also ran into the birther question.  He was born in the Panama Canal zone.  So the issue of Natural born citizen came up then and on previous occasions as well.  Here's an article written in 2016 by the Washington Post, not exactly a republican or Trump leaning paper. 

There was a very real ‘birther’ debate about John McCain
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/07/there-was-a-very-real-birther-debate-about-john-mccain/ 

James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #701 on: August 14, 2020, 10:51:07 pm »

The material I’ve read says Fred Trump, was was born in the USA and Mary became a naturalized citizen in 1942, before Donal was born.

I know. Trump himself keeps saying his Dad was German. It’s weird.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #702 on: August 14, 2020, 10:52:34 pm »

I don’t remember exactly But I seem to recall someone tried but they were dismissed due to lack of standing.  Don’t quote me on this.

Okay. It just doesn’t seem believable that if there were a good case to be made that, for example, Hillary wouldn’t have made it in 2008. It is not like her to think she just let it slide.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #703 on: August 14, 2020, 10:55:14 pm »

Okay. It just doesn’t seem believable that if there were a good case to be made that, for example, Hillary wouldn’t have made it in 2008. It is not like her to think she just let it slide.

It’s been said the whole Obama birther thing was started by a Clinton operative.  Settled or not it’s just more political theater designed to keep an opponent on the defensive.  Played by both sides.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #704 on: August 14, 2020, 10:55:52 pm »

Okay. It just doesn’t seem believable that if there were a good case to be made that, for example, Hillary wouldn’t have made it in 2008. It is not like her to think she just let it slide.
Everyone on the Democrat side thought Trump would lose.  Why challenge it?

James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #705 on: August 14, 2020, 10:56:33 pm »

Republican Sen. John McCain who ran for president against Obama also ran into the birther question.  He was born in the Panama Canal zone.  So the issue of Natural born citizen came up then and on previous occasions as well.  Here's an article written in 2016 by the Washington Post, not exactly a republican or Trump leaning paper. 

There was a very real ‘birther’ debate about John McCain
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/07/there-was-a-very-real-birther-debate-about-john-mccain/

Sort of the opposite issue though, asking if “natural born” requires you to be born on American soil.  Equally goofy IMHO, but a wholly different question without serious opposition.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:02:09 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #706 on: August 14, 2020, 10:58:45 pm »

It’s been said the whole Obama birther thing was started by a Clinton operative.  Settled or not it’s just more political theater designed to keep an opponent on the defensive.  Played by both sides.
Probably the same Hillary operative that started the Trump dossier. Maybe Hillary is doing it again with Harris hoping Biden will change his mind and select her for VP. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #707 on: August 14, 2020, 11:01:01 pm »

Probably the same Hillary operative that started the Trump dossier. Maybe Hillary is doing it again with Harris hoping Biden will change his mind and select her for VP.

She just today said she would look forward to the opportunity to work with the Biden administration. 

God help us all. 

Biden needs to hire a taste tester today. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #708 on: August 14, 2020, 11:03:30 pm »

Okay. It just doesn’t seem believable that if there were a good case to be made that, for example, Hillary wouldn’t have made it in 2008. It is not like her to think she just let it slide.

I have a feeling that if this hits a Republican candidate for Prez, there will be a whole raft of lawsuits making it on the way to the SCOTUS /s   😎
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #709 on: August 14, 2020, 11:05:20 pm »

Everyone on the Democrat side thought Trump would lose.  Why challenge it?

I was talking about the 2008 democratic primary between Hillary and Obama. I know it is late but the date 2008 in my post which you quoted is the clue. If there were a good case to be made, I can’t believe she would have foregone addressing it. Tell me, if there were a good case to be made with respect to Obama, do you think the Republicans would have just let it slide in both 2008 and 2012? Does that sound plausible to you?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:12:32 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #710 on: August 14, 2020, 11:08:06 pm »

Sort of the opposite issue though, asking if “natural born” requires you to be born on American soil.  Equally goofy IMHO, but a wholly different question.
It's not a different question. All these cases go back to the definition of natural born citizen. 

Just to clarify why this became a requirement in the constitution.  Representatives and senators just have to be citizens, either by birth or gaining citizenship like Congresswoman Omar.  But the founders were very concerned that the chief magistrate, executive of the government, and commander-in-chief of the army had allegiance only to the United States.  So the President and Vice President since he could become president had the requirements tightened up.  So they added the phrase "natural born citizen" to the requirements.

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #711 on: August 14, 2020, 11:22:14 pm »

I was talking about the 2008 democratic primary between Hillary and Obama. I know it is late but the date 2008 in my post which you quoted is the clue. If there were a good case to be made, I can’t believe she would have foregone addressing it. Tell me, if there were a good case to be made with respect to Obama, do you think the Republicans would have just let it slide in both 2008 and 2012? Does that sound plausible to you?

Hillary claims she had nothing to do with it, that an operative went rouge, iirc. 

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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #712 on: August 14, 2020, 11:24:24 pm »

Hillary claims she had nothing to do with it, that an operative went rouge, iirc. 


Must have been her mother-in-law, the one with the recipes.

John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #713 on: August 15, 2020, 12:25:33 am »

Earlier in this thread, I said,

"There's an absolute astonishing level of convoluted bigotry here. It sort of makes me embarrassed to visit Lula."

That ran under a comment quoted from Craig Lamson. My comment didn't refer to what Mr. Lamson said in that quote box -- in fact, I don't know how that quote box even got there, as I blocked Mr. Lamson's comments some weeks ago, and don't even see them anymore. In any case, I would apologize to Mr. Lamson. My comment didn't have anything to do with what he said in that quote box.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #714 on: August 15, 2020, 04:17:50 am »

Hillary claims she had nothing to do with it, that an operative went rouge, iirc.

I invite you to re-read my post. Perhaps you could respond to it.
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LesPalenik

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #715 on: August 15, 2020, 04:31:15 am »

Must have been her mother-in-law, the one with the recipes.

Hillary can also cook?
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jeremyrh

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #716 on: August 15, 2020, 06:11:57 am »

Hillary claims she had nothing to do with it, that an operative went rouge, iirc.

Damn. Shoulda stuck to the blanc.
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jeremyrh

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #717 on: August 15, 2020, 06:17:28 am »

I was referring to racial and physical features.  .

So what are her “racial features” that are “white” ?
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #718 on: August 15, 2020, 06:52:04 am »

Right.  That’s my point.  That’s why the terminology is different.  Naturalized citizen = “citizen” natural born = citizen by birth.

That's true. Both a naturalized citizen and a citizen by birth are citizens that share all of the same rights except for one; only a citizen by birth is eligible for the offices of President and by extension Vice-President. The Citizenship Clause in the 14th Amendment contains the only language in the Constitution defining the means by which citizenship is established and there are only two. There is no third type of super citizenship that grants an exclusive right to become President due to having citizen parents or parent.

It wouldn’t get past whatever federal judge had the misfortune to have to adjudicate it first.   (Well, maybe Naomi Reo would buy it, but she’s a hack.)

That's true as well. A great many lawsuits went thru federal and state courts before and during Obama's terms as President challenging his qualification for office including the claim that because his father was not a citizen Obama didn't qualify as a natural born citizen (the Vattel or jus sanguinis argument). Many failed due to standing issues. The cases where standing was granted had testimony, witnesses, documents, multiple hearings, and to put it mildly were pretty bizarre. They all fell flat as well and went nowhere.

One consistent issue brought up by both the government attorneys and judges was that the qualifications for political candidates for any federal office are non-justiciable, meaning that courts can not decide the issue. Courts do not decide political questions, meaning issues that belong to and are decided in the political branches of government, the legislature and executive branches. The qualification of federal political office holders is decided by Congress as laid out in the Constitution in Articles I and II, the amendments that deal with Presidential election and succession, and the federal law that governs the certification process in Congress of the electoral votes.

The only real likelihood of a case making into court and a decision being rendered would be for a state to deny a Presidential candidate a place on the ballot as being unqualified for office. That denial could be challenged in a court as a legal question as a violation of Constitutional rights. Except for that occurring, Presidential qualification for office is decided at three levels by different groups. First, voters can choose not to vote for the electors pledged to a candidate they consider to be unqualified. Second, the electors that actually vote for the Presidential candidates can also choose not to vote for a candidate they consider to be unqualified. Finally, when the electors votes are counted in the joint session of Congress, objections can be made to one or more electoral votes with the objections to be decided by Congress as required under federal law.

And you're also right about it being a misfortune for any judge that got one those cases. Every judge was miserable that had to listen to the crazy conspiracy nonsense and bizarre legal arguments that were presented.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 07:21:50 am by TechTalk »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #719 on: August 15, 2020, 08:02:04 am »

My point was that Trump at least worked in private industry.
He worked in real estate which does not qualify as an industry.  His record was spotty with numerous bankruptcies that required a bailout from his father.  The fact that he was able to structure things as multiple LLCs also provide financial insulation that a manufacturing or retail company would not enjoy.
 
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He understands what's needed for an industrious country.  The tax bill he pushed and passed helped us be more effective from a business and jobs standpoint.
It did nothing to rid the tax code of numerous preferences that favor certain business activities over others.  He preserved the carried interest loophole that he had vowed to eliminate during the 2016 election.  The US has turned into a nation that relies on financial services rather than manuracturing. 
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Biden, having always worked for the government, thinks the government creates wealth.  He's never seen a government agency that shouldn't be bigger. Spending and regulation are in his blood.
I would enjoy seeing evidence for this.  Many US presidents did not have business experience.  Some were in the military, some were landowners, some were lawyers, some were lifelong politicians.  Some were good, bad and indifferent.  There is no common background theme that can be pointed to in this assessment.
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Trump on the other hand hates regulation because it interferes with profits.  It slows down success.  He's very cheap.  What president ever negotiated the price for his own Air Force 1?
Inappropriate regulation is always bad.  Unfortunately, the Trump Administration seems not to be able to discern what is good vs. bad.  Look at the decision to rescind the methane emission regulation which clearly was beneficial.

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