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Author Topic: COVID-19 updates  (Read 82480 times)

KLaban

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #780 on: March 21, 2020, 04:33:48 am »

Thanks, Keith, appreciate the concern. I am in the 11th day of persistent dry cough, very exhausting. I try to save energy by sleeping most of the time.

My symptoms are not apparently serious enough to warrant testing. Some of my friends are not that lucky. A violinist in the band that was playing on March 7, where we got the bug, is hospitalized with pneumonia and corona positive. Some of you might remember a few pics of him I posted. A healthy guy, late 20s, early 30s, non smoker, non drinker.

Wishing you well, Slobodan.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #781 on: March 21, 2020, 04:42:21 am »

Les, you're side stepping my point.  China a country of 1.4 billion people stopped the virus after only a few thousand dead.  Did it burn out?  Or, did they have a vaccine?  Or what? Considering the whole world is shutting down outside of CHina (and apparently South Korea), aren't you curious about the details?  EVeryday, in America at least, each governor of every state is upping the ante of what's being shut down.  The press is playing this to the hilt.  Are we shooting ourselves in the foot? 

I'm not saying there's no danger.  It's just that the problem seems to be gone where it hit first with relatively minimum damage.  Why?   This is important before we destroy our economies?  If Canada lost 500,000 jobs, imagine what larger America has lost and in the rest of Europe and elsewhere.  What damage is that causing?  How many people won't have food to eat soon?  Are we missing the forest through the trees?

The epidemics curve behaves like that. China was the first to be hit, it is the first to get out of it. Europe is now approaching peak epidemics (which in the risisng phase it's an exponential curve). In Portugal cases are doubling every 2 or 3 days. No need for speculations and conspiracy theories.

China has a delegation in Italy, trying to help. Spain is following suit. They did not pay heed to China's doctors warnings they should have closed down sooner.

There are many scientific papers published, we should listen to the science, not politics.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #782 on: March 21, 2020, 04:47:29 am »

Tinfoil hats anyone? 

Just saw an interview with the good Dr Fauci who said he was not ever sure if by Easter we could get back to normal. 

That is unsustainable, and like Alan said, unless there is a drastic up tick in death toll, not something people will put up with. 

Unless I hear a realistic plan by Tuesday or Wednesday, as a libertarian, I cant see the negatived of the economy tanking being outweighed by the positives of what ever we are ad hocking.

If containemnt measures are not enforced in due time, it is not a matter of "if" wrt death toll. The epidemics follows an exponential rise until it reaches the peak. Number of deaths depends on population age and pre-existing health conditions. And on how well timely social distancing measures and quarantine are put in place. Spain and Italy were too late, see where they are now.

In America, I am afraid the USA and Brasil will be seriosly hit by this health crisis.

rabanito

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #783 on: March 21, 2020, 05:54:55 am »


In America, I am afraid the USA and Brasil will be seriosly hit by this health crisis.

And Mexico, I am told.
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William Walker

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #784 on: March 21, 2020, 05:57:54 am »

Well I'm only using that for comparison.  In any case, the regular flu season doesn;t last 12 months.  My point is will it be worse than the regular flu?  I don't know?  If not, why are we shutting down the world?  Meanwhile I'm cooped up and me and my wife are getting awful testy with one another.  And it's only been a few days.

Alan, please send Mrs Klein my sincere greetings, sympathies and admiration, I can only imagine what it's like.... I'm 6000 miles and your'e driving me nuts!!  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 06:47:32 am by William Walker »
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #785 on: March 21, 2020, 06:01:00 am »

Tinfoil hats anyone? 
Just saw an interview with the good Dr Fauci who said he was not ever sure if by Easter we could get back to normal. 
That is unsustainable, and like Alan said, unless there is a drastic up tick in death toll, not something people will put up with. 

I think you boys need to get real.
Just to keep a perspective :

The first death in Italy occurred on the 22-February
8-March forced quarantine for Lombardy.
9-March lockdown orders extended to the whole of Italy.
As of yesterday, 20-March, (less than one month since the first death)

47,021 cases
4,032 deaths
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #786 on: March 21, 2020, 06:04:56 am »

SKYNews (UK) covering the crisis as well, if not better, than anyone.
News, live feed, is broadcast via YouTube

https://youtu.be/9Auq9mYxFEE
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #787 on: March 21, 2020, 06:12:29 am »

The shocking centre of the COVID-19 crisis
SKYNews 5minute documentary

https://youtu.be/_J60fQr0GWo
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Rob C

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #788 on: March 21, 2020, 06:55:43 am »

For those who will inevitable flaunt the "stay and spray at home" edicts, martial law may eventually resolve their mental problems once and for ever. Bang!

I think that the worst will be experienced not in rich countries where stupidity will be the main cause of spread, but in the impoverished third world where options and hygiene do not exist.

Now we get an inkling of how the more intelligent dinosaurs felt.

;-(

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #789 on: March 21, 2020, 07:27:58 am »

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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #790 on: March 21, 2020, 07:45:22 am »

For those who will inevitable flaunt the "stay and spray at home" edicts, martial law may eventually resolve their mental problems once and for ever. Bang!

I think that the worst will be experienced not in rich countries where stupidity will be the main cause of spread, but in the impoverished third world where options and hygiene do not exist.

Now we get an inkling of how the more intelligent dinosaurs felt.

;-(

Quite right if by that you mean number of deaths. We will be worse hit than a first world country. But phycologicaly I don’t think so. If there is no health care in normal times people won’t freak out when the nonexistent care facilities collapse. People that have lived through wars and Ebola are not going to lose any sleep over this. In fact a lot of people live under such poor conditions that this is not going to make any noticeable difference.

I remember several years ago a major first world city had a massive power outage and there was panic and looting. We have power outages almost daily at times each time lasting for or more hours, some places have no electricity at all. So when the nonexistent power we never had doesn’t work we don’t notice.

Rough but there you have it. What first world countries worry might happen is how many people live and have always lived. No panic when it continues.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #791 on: March 21, 2020, 07:55:47 am »

I read that 2 1/2 million Americans will be applying for unemployment insurance benefits in MArch and APril just for what's happened.  If this thing isn't stopped, who knows what it could go too?    Fortunately I'm retired and so is my wife.  WHo knows though if government pensions are that protected? But for those working, how are you going to handle paying for things if this thing goes on for awhile? I also expect inflation to hit big time as the government floods the country with printed money.   
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/20/the-upcoming-job-losses-will-be-unlike-anything-the-us-has-ever-seen.html

It's so bad that the US Labor Department is forbidding the states to release the actual unemployment filing numbers until the Feds do to prevent more panic in the financial markets.  We're not going to see 3 1/2% unemployment numbers again for a long time.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fearing-market-impact-trump-administration-asks-states-postpone/story?id=69710991

You keep bringing up economic costs. Fair enough, they are real enough and need to be kept in mind. But if no measures were taken and the virus made billions sick at the same time, resulting in millions directly dead with much collateral death, that would also have a major economic impact. I'm just saying that we shouldn't pretend that it's one OR the other.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #792 on: March 21, 2020, 08:01:04 am »

No one knows how this plays out, thats the reality.  To suggest there can a real plan that fits your needs, based on the unknown is silly.

Your aspirations really mean nothing at this point.   I think you are gonna go with the flow regardless, like it or not.   I suspect a lot more people have a desire to be part of the better good than those interested in rebellion .

But time will tell.  I have a lot of faith that good people will do what’s right even if it’s painful. It’s not a time for selfishness.   Ymmv.

I dont, not at the expense of their lives.  Eventually not working will entail greater risks than the virus for many, especially given who this virus is mainly killing.  That without a real plan is not a great recipe for confidence. 

Gov. Wolf delays enforcement of order closing 'non-life-sustaining' businesses amid COVID-19

My neighbor, who is a dentist, thought it would be good to plan out some projects this weekend and went to a garden center.  It was open when it was suppose to be closed and he was not even aware it was suppose to be.  Our governor is delaying the enforcement because stores are remaining open.  Until this hits hard, I dont see how you can enforce this. 

I want to see a military like operation in increase ICU beds; without it I just dont think much of this will matter.  The only story I have seen that relates to this is NJ trying to reopen a hospital that closed down last year, and already is working with the CORP on another.  This is what we need, and it is stories like this we need to talk about to instill confidence. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 08:12:39 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #793 on: March 21, 2020, 08:02:19 am »

Good to hear from you, Slobodan. Wishing you a soon recovery.

Same. 
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William Walker

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #794 on: March 21, 2020, 08:31:11 am »

For those who will inevitable flaunt the "stay and spray at home" edicts, martial law may eventually resolve their mental problems once and for ever. Bang!

I think that the worst will be experienced not in rich countries where stupidity will be the main cause of spread, but in the impoverished third world where options and hygiene do not exist.

Now we get an inkling of how the more intelligent dinosaurs felt.

;-(

Rob, I must say that I have been very impressed by our government's response: on Sunday, our President made a very calm and measured declaration of "National Disaster", our Health Minister is giving informative daily briefings. South Africa has a pretty good medical infrastructure in place for treating HIV and TB in terms of tracing the illnesses so we don't have to re-invent the wheel as far as that is concerned.

The vast majority of our 250 cases have been "imported" and, so far, local spread was 19 as of yesterday. Flights from other countries have been restricted, many points of border entry have been closed, restrictions on gatherings, pubs, sports etc. have been implemented. As of yesterday South Africa was testing at a higher rate per million than the US.

Our biggest problem, I think, will be financial. For ten years we suffered under severe corruption and grand theft which has left our coffers near empty - we can't send folk cheques.

It appears that most of our citizens are aware of the impending crisis and we realise that the worst is yet to come.

Having said all that, it is still early days.

My feeling is that everyone, everywhere is thinking about three weeks behind. By that I mean we should be doing now what we will be doing in three week's time....

I live in a small village about an hour outside of Cape Town which sees quite a lot of tourists and we took the decision to close our gallery from this morning.

We are expecting our first grand-child in a week or two and want to make sure we are as safe as possible!
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RSL

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #795 on: March 21, 2020, 08:36:10 am »

Congratulation, William. Grandkids are wonderful. So are great-grands, but you have to wait a while for those to come on the scene.

Stay safe.
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William Walker

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #796 on: March 21, 2020, 08:48:09 am »

Congratulation, William. Grandkids are wonderful. So are great-grands, but you have to wait a while for those to come on the scene.

Stay safe.

Thanks Russ! I have been thinking of you in Florida and hope that you are staying safe!
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #797 on: March 21, 2020, 09:25:48 am »

Let's do a thought experiment.  Let's imagine that for the most part businesses in PA follow the rules, with the exceptions, at first.  What happens when stores that are exempt start selling product they do not normally carry and that other locations do that had to close? 

For instance, hardware stores can remain open.  Now every hardware store I have been to is rather large with lots of storage and display space, so it would be easy for them to add more merchandise.  What if they suddenly start selling office supply, a category not allowed to remain open?  It's not a stretch.  Eventually we will need paper and envelopes; someone is going to have to fill that need.  What if they start selling furniture?  Also not a stretch; hardware already supplies many other home goods.  Sporting goods?  Many-d-it-yourselfers are sports fans; it would be a good way help take care of your customers to provide additional products they enjoy but cant get elsewhere currently. 

What happens when those other businesses start seeing stores allowed to remain open start selling the merchandise they normally sell? 
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D Fuller

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #798 on: March 21, 2020, 09:31:45 am »

What have we learned in a week's time?

We don't know the death rate and the range is rather large. 

No one can give an accurate prediction on how many will die.  I read today from different scientists that regardless of what we do it could be as little as 10,000 or as much as 2,500,000 in the USA, which is a pretty big range. 
This is not what I’ve been reading. Yes, There has been a wide range of total death predictions, but I haven’t read any source that says what we do doesn’t matter. The majority of sources I see are writing that moderate social distancing will be moderately helpful in reducing both the rate of the spread and total infections, and that extreme distancing will be more effective.


China claims to have surprised it, but since they lied about so much already, can they really be trusted. 

We don't know if self-isolation will actually end it, or just delay the inevitable.  There is a very real possibility that as soon as we come out, we will just start infecting each other again. 

We don't know if a second waive will come or even if you can be infected again after already having it. 
There are other possibilities besides “end it” and “delay the inevitable,” neither of which seems like the likely result. Every article I’ve read from a scientific source has suggested that reducing the rate of spread (through social distancing) also reduces the  total number of infections. Of immediate benefit is that it will reduce the demand pressure on the available medical care so that a greater percentage of victims will be able to get the care they need. Longer term, it will give time for treatments to be tested and manufacturing scaled, and for a vaccine to be developed. With conflicting voices in the air, I choose to trust those with epidemiological cred, and those voices all seem to be saying that social isolation is the best tool we have until treatments have been developed.

We should assume that there will be a second wave. But if we have been successful in developing therapies during this first wave, the second should have less-severe consequences.



I have not seen any realistic plan to increase ICU beds, nor have there been any reports on this happening.  So, even if we can flatten this curve best case scenario, we still are going to have one really big mess on our hands with near the same amount of loss of life. 

I’ve seen reports of hospital ships being dispatched to hot cities, and of university dormitories being offered up for hospital use. Neither of these provide ICU beds, but they do provide ways to relieve some of the pressure in hospitals by removing other patients with less-severe disease. That said, this ad-hoc approach is nowhere near sufficient, and the power to ramp up production and distribution of ventilators, etc rests with the POTUS, who seems unwilling to use it.


We have no clear end game and no one in government seems to be thinking about it.  Or if they are, they sure are not telling us. 

So what do we know?  Neither Trump nor any governor has any clue to exactly what is going to happen nor how to handle it.  I mean are you actually feeling confident in our leaders' response, especially all of the govenors'?  I know I'm not.  The economy is being totally destroyed, which will lead to an increase in suicides, drug addiction and related deaths, divorce and family break ups, evictions and foreclosures, prostitution and sex trafficking, and a complete and total depression if we continue down this path that will fundamentally change the country.  And it may be all for naught anyway. I might also add much of this people will not recover from. 

Like I said, I have no aspirations to sit back and watch the world go to hell by our own making.  Unless some serious plan comes out or the death rate skyrockets, dont expect many to keep to this. 

Insofar as what is up to me or not, I by myself certainly cant change this.  But when half of the country changes their minds, it will no longer be up to the government either. 

It seems to me irrational to keep asking for an ”end game” at this stage. It’s like asking for an end game in a war—you know the end game is to defeat the enemy, but you can’t know how long it will take to do that, or what the cost will be. But without total commitment to defeating the enemy, you are bound to lose the war.

There will be economic disruption in any case.

If we enforce “shelter in place” for two months, and it slows the infection curve, there will be much economic hardship.

If we do nothing, and our hospitals are overwhelmed and the virus kills by the thousands, people will shut themselves off, demand will tank, and there will be much economic hardship.

If millions of people die, demand will tank and there will be much economic hardship.

Given that economic pain is unavoidable, it seems to me that the logical choice is to lock the country down for as long as it takes and get the greatest economic pain over with up front so we can start rebuilding sooner.


There is no real plan, and in very short order, no one is going to have any confidence anymore in our elected officials without one.  Then it all falls apart.

Well, that horse has already left the barn at the national level, but there is some very good leadership stepping up at the state level. Governors and state-level CDC directors lack the power to redirect manufacturing and distribution, but some are doing a very good job of articulating policy that should slow the spread of the disease and providing good information on what to do and why. But we really are suffering from the lack of leadership at the federal level.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #799 on: March 21, 2020, 09:41:21 am »

I dont, not at the expense of their lives.  Eventually not working will entail greater risks than the virus for many, especially given who this virus is mainly killing.  That without a real plan is not a great recipe for confidence. 

Gov. Wolf delays enforcement of order closing 'non-life-sustaining' businesses amid COVID-19

My neighbor, who is a dentist, thought it would be good to plan out some projects this weekend and went to a garden center.  It was open when it was suppose to be closed and he was not even aware it was suppose to be.  Our governor is delaying the enforcement because stores are remaining open.  Until this hits hard, I dont see how you can enforce this. 

I want to see a military like operation in increase ICU beds; without it I just dont think much of this will matter.  The only story I have seen that relates to this is NJ trying to reopen a hospital that closed down last year, and already is working with the CORP on another.  This is what we need, and it is stories like this we need to talk about to instill confidence.

The problem with you theory Joe is that people won’t be able to work if the place where they work remain closed.  You can’t force a business to open just because you don’t like the program.

Sure there may be an outlaw business here and there who decides the heck with it, but the major s will follow the rules.  I suspect most restaurants will too since they rely upon a supply chain they can’t control.  Very few businesses are self suficient.  And I really wonder how businesses would feel about restarting just to see it’s workforce become ill and head back home.  Not sure that might happen but it is a possibility.

Building new wards is a nice thought but we can’t stock the ones we have.  I’m not sure who gets the blame one this one but I’m really surprised the hospitals don’t have inventory. This is not a thing the government should have handled, it’s a hospital problem imo.   But without a US based production capacity and a reliance on offshore suppliers it’s out of our hands.

Which brings us back to shutting down and staying home.  Resources are limited.  More will not come on line in any reasonable amounts anytime soon.  Opening the workplace back to business as usual will simply crush the medical system.  If the spread is not slowed it’s going to be a nightmare. 

Slowing it requires people stay at home it’s just that simple.   

Anyways we have beaten this horse to death.  No sense beating it any longer.
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