Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1

[synn]

IQ: Stands for

- Image Quality
- A series of digital backs produced by Phase One.
- Intelligence Quotient

You certainly show proof of 2/3 of those.

[michael]

Mr. Song,

There have been several requests to ban you.

Yes, we know that if people don't want to see your post they can "ignore", but that is not the spirit of this Forum.

Therefore, you are kindly asked to adhere to our norms of behaviour, or be gone.

This is your one and only warning.

Michael

[Primus]

I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep

[buckshot]

Interesting post, particularly the bit about what the P1 dealer offered you for the $50k worth of gear you bought from them. Sheesh.

</begin_OT_rant>

How I still - after all these years - loathe with a passion P1's 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model and the 'exclusiveness' of ownership that comes with it (I'm surprised they don't include a P1 tie with every purchase). Might have been good for P1's balance sheet, but not for photography.

Still, credit where credit is due - not everyone could take something that costs under $5k to produce and retail it at $45k.

</end_OT_rant>

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I may have some issues with Phase One's upgrade policies.

1) If you have some kind of value added protection plan that you are paying for that should include crossgrade/downgrade options to new technology backs, irrespectively of purchase price. You are paying for value protection.

2) Mount change options should be mount change options. The existing mount is dismounted and a new mount is mounted. It seems that the present option is implemented as a replacement of an existing back with another back. Unfortunately, it seems that all backs are not created equal.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep

[eronald]

P1's trick is to motivate dealers to REALLY WANT to sell P1 products. They do this by setting high prices and  offering HUGE margins eg. 40 or 50%, and a threat to chuck them if they offer discounts. This has the effect of making the Phase backs expensive compared to companies that sell with "normal" margins, but it makes the dealers VERY MOTIVATED to sell Phase rather than say Pentax.  Unfortunately this means that a dealer will never offer more than about 40-50% cash buyback price on any piece of Phase equipment - unless of course it is offset by another "upgrade" Phase sale, where one fictitious inflated number offsets the other.

Some smart dealers earn their commission by training their customers, and working their butts off for them, answer the phone at all hours and solve impossible problems, saving the customer's job. Others presumably have good connections and good looks, personality and convincing salesmanship, a bit like art galleries who sell to museums. A few survive on geographical exclusivity and incompetence. Depending on who you deal with and what you want out of life, with you may or not get your money's worth from your dealer, but Phase has managed to bypass any normal price comparison process



Edmund.

Interesting post, particularly the bit about what the P1 dealer offered you for the $50k worth of gear you bought from them. Sheesh.

</begin_OT_rant>

How I still - after all these years - loathe with a passion P1's 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model and the 'exclusiveness' of ownership that comes with it (I'm surprised they don't include a P1 tie with every purchase). Might have been good for P1's balance sheet, but not for photography.

Still, credit where credit is due - not everyone could take something that costs under $5k to produce and retail it at $45k.

</end_OT_rant>

[BernardLanguillier]

In my view, this shows that the only time that can be right to purchase a P1 back is when it delivers fully what you need, not when you think that it's close but still missing something that a future model may make completely right.

As far as I am concerned, that time may be when they come up with a full(er) size CMOS in the 80~100 mp range. That will make the upgrade non sense irrelevant because there will be no rationale for needing anything else.

If that kind of cash is important to you, then knowing when the time is right to buy remains the most important of the buyer's skills. If cash isn't important then no issue to the subscription model, but it is still akin to a form of "let's fund their long term development and get partial value on the way there (status being a form of value very important to some)" thing.

Cheers,
Bernard

[ciccio]

i cannot agree more with edmund 
phase is a company that only exist because of his tricky business model...future is not on their side , because any model of business is never eternal.
best.

[buckshot]

As far as I am concerned, that time may be when they come up with a full(er) size CMOS in the 80~100 mp range. That will make the upgrade non sense irrelevant because there will be no rationale for needing anything else.

Hard to disagree with that.

If (when!) that day comes I hope that HB release it as a sub-$15k back (don't care if it's V-mount) a la the CFV-50c; if it's left to P1 it will be $45k+ ... as usual.

[FelixWu]

I am one of those who tried the upgrade path and felt it was too painful - for my needs certainly. The long thread on GetDPI referenced in the beginning of this topic was started by me.

Just to put things in perspective:

I was a at a workshop at which the Phase salesman happened to be present (it was not a PODAS thing). I had heard so much about the Phase system and wanted to try it. Needless to say, I was impressed (compared to my 1DX) and the deal was clinched when the sales guy told me the Phase policy was particularly attractive to those looking to upgrade as the cost to do so would be at best 20% of the purchase price of the original, i.e. they would buy back the original less 20% and I thought that was great. I won't go into the details of the encouragement from all the other Phase owners present (and there were several) and the subtle push to 'belong to an exclusive club'. I will note for the record that a senior member of this forum did hint to me privately that it was 'perhaps not such a good idea'. Would that I had listened to him....

So I went and bought the IQ180 'value package'. At that time there was very little information available on used values or new values - I only had the dealer's version of the cost - there were no online prices to compare since none of the dealers would list the price (this was September 2013). Others who had bought it before were reluctant to share their cost of purchase simply stating they had received 'huge discounts'. Well, I got 15% off MSRP and then it cost me $42K, local taxes included.

Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories). I approached my dealer to ask if I could get the IQ250 which had come out a couple of months earlier and was a CMOS sensor although of lower resolution. I thought I could make better use of it and did not want to give up on my desire to continue with MF.

My dealer told me that since it was strictly speaking not an 'upgrade' but a 'downgrade' since it was  a lower resolution back (going from the 180 to the 250),  I would have to pay $28K for the IQ250 and give up my 180. I asked what would happen if and when the full frame CMOS back came out. He would not commit to anything. I asked about an upgrade of the camera body when that came out (it was rumored to be very soon). Again, same response.

Needless to say I was disappointed and when my DF645+ had a stuck shutter problem a few weeks later which cost me six weeks and $750 to fix, I decided it was time to bail out. I asked my dealer how much would I get for my entire kit (the IQ180 plus the DF645+ plus four lenses, which had cost me just over $50K), he said he could pay me $17K for it all. At this time, I could see that a 'used' IQ180 was priced at $28K  on one of the other dealer's website.  Since my back  still had four years of warranty left  I sold my entire kit through another forum privately.

So that's my story. Obviously times change and prices change, when you buy a car it drops 30% when you leave the dealer's lot. The higher the technology, the greater the depreciation. I get all that, my only disappointment with the company is the somewhat less than candid disclosure of the real upgrade policy. I have no criticism of the company's prices, anybody is free to charge whatever they want for a product that they manufacture, as long as they can get a buyer. I do feel that there is more hype than substance here but that's just my opinion.

I am now a very happy owner of the Pentax 645Z and a bunch of lenses, taking the kind of pictures I could never have with the Phase IQ 180, but I won't go into that debate here.

Hope this helps answer the OP's questions somewhat.

Pradeep

I would dream to own a p1 kit with 180. Do you use flash with the DB?

[buckshot]

Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

[synn]

How is that different from ANY other peice of equipment you can buy in the open market?
One could find the same model of car of the same vintage (used) at very different prices at two different dealers and of course, cheaper privately.

Like with anything else in life, do your homework as a buyer and as a seller. Blaming others is an easy way out, but that is not the root cause of the problem.

[Primus]

Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

It is a rapidly changing world. Look at the price of the Leica S-E now, dropped to $6K if some of the posts are to be believed.

With P-1, the model has been one of an 'exclusive club' with membership strictly controlled through  a small number of dealers. You paid for the prestige of owning the famed 'Phase' system and hopefully recovered your money's worth in image quality and the service offered if something were to go wrong. The fact that with such a beautifully crafted product things should not go wrong easily is another topic altogether.

With the arrival of Pentax, Hassy and possibly Sony in the near future, offering, IMHO, much better products at a much lower price, transparent pricing, easy access to used lenses and accessories the game has changed completely. P-1 will not be able to continue the status quo despite a core group of die-hard supporters. Prices have to come down drastically, nobody sees the point in paying five times the price for essentially the same sensor (with perhaps even better 'tuning') as the 645Z unless one has very special needs that can only be met with the Phase technology. The monopoly is over.

Which is good news for anybody looking to get into MF at this time.

Pradeep

[Primus]

How is that different from ANY other peice of equipment you can buy in the open market?
One could find the same model of car of the same vintage (used) at very different prices at two different dealers and of course, cheaper at a dealer.

Like with anything else in life, do your homework as a buyer and as a seller. Blaming others is an easy way out, but that is not the root cause of the problem.

I agree, it has ALWAYS been Caveat Emptor, which is why the prices are dropping, because the buyer has more options and cheaper ones at that. You cannot blame Phase for their pricing policies, but you CAN blame the dealer/sales person for not providing full disclosure.

Pradeep

[buckshot]

How is that different...

What are you talking about ? Since when has the P1 dealer network been an 'open market' ? It's essentially operated along the lines of franchise, with all that that entails (price regulation etc.), which makes the significant price differential on the used gear that I highlighted worthy of mention.

[synn]

What are you talking about ? Since when has the P1 dealer network been an 'open market' ? It's essentially operated along the lines of franchise, with all that that entails (price regulation etc.), which makes the significant price differential on the used gear that I highlighted worthy of mention.

What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.

[Paul2660]

Pricing of P1 used gear is also a murky world. I can see a P1 dealer now who has a used IQ180 with VAW for US $17k, and another P1 dealer with a used IQ180 with 1yr warranty for US $28k. Both in great condition. So, what does that extra $11k bring you ? Other than a bigger hole in your wallet, and a bigger bulge in theirs, absolutely zilch as far as I can see.

Since used IQ180s are selling privately for around the $13.5k mark, the dealer asking $17k would seem to be in the right ball park given what the market has determined the value of one of these things to be.

So, what about the dealer wanting $28k ? Completely and utterly living in cloud cuckoo land. If you have one to sell privately, do not use this as a guide price ('Dealers want $28k, so my price of $20k is a steal'. Er, no, not even close).

As a Phase One user, I would have to say, that first deal is a very good one.  If I read you correctly, 17K for a used 180, with VAW, and no trade in?  The going rate for a trade from 260 to 380 is 17599, and that's giving up the 260.  I wonder if that is a typo on the website?  Just curious.

Paul

[buckshot]

Paul - gave them a call - not a typo - US $17k (exc. any applicable sales tax) with VAW 'til Jan 2017.

Also spotted an IQ160 for US $13k from another P1 dealer, but with no warranty (could be purchased separately; the back is probably being sold on consignment). Not quite as good a deal, but still a decent price.

Jim

[buckshot]

What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.

Here you go, have a cuddly wombat:

[landscapephoto]

What are YOU talking about?

Are you required to have special qualifications to own one?
No?
Have money, can buy?


Then it is available in the open market.

What was meant, I suppose, is that Phase One controls their dealers. They are not allowed to publish prices online. They are not allowed to compete on price. To me, it seems similar to the situation with car dealers 20 years ago: you could only get a new car at list price and the list price included a big margin so that the car dealer could give you a good price on your used old car. A friend of mine was a car dealer and explained it to me: let us say that the extra margin on new cars was 5000$, they would use that to offer a price for your used car which was 1000$ above what a private person would pay. They still pocketed 4000$, part of which went to finance used car sales, lending cars to prospective customers, some extra service, etc...

Price control is a necessity for that subvention system to work. If you have no price control, some dealers will lower their prices by 5000$ and not offer the extra services. Customers will complain about the more expensive dealer being more expensive but still require the extra service. When price fixing became illegal in the EU a few years ago, the practices were exposed but many car dealers went bankrupt.

It seems that this is the way Phase One markets their cameras and backs, since they are about 10,000$ more expensive than the equivalent Leaf or Hasselblad systems.