Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1

[DucatiTerminator]

And then there's the tale of an amateur that went to a workshop and was persuaded to blow $42000 on a Phase system before realising it couldn't take the kind of images he thought it could.

Sorry, Pradeep, but fools and their money have always been easily parted.

That's hitting a bit below the belt, isn't it?

As I get closer to pulling the trigger on a Phase system, I appreciate Pradeep's insight and shared experience. I consider my self an amateur; maybe I should consider attending a workshop? LOL

Alvin

[Primus]

+1

I was once told be a photo professor that you don't really know your film until you can take all the rolls you shot, lay them out flat and on top of each other, and get a stack at least 6 inches thick.  I doubt 900 shots would get you there.  

I will repeat what I said in my original post on this thread:

"Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories)."

It was definitely not for lack of intent, but I do not need to prove it to anybody here.

Pradeep

[JoeKitchen]

I will repeat what I said in my original post on this thread:

"Just over a year later I saw that my use of the system had been minimal (less than 900 actuations), the reasons were many but mainly I couldn't take the kind of images I thought I could  but I still believed in the MF system (I had by now bought three more lenses and accessories)."

It was definitely not for lack of intent, but I do not need to prove it to anybody here.

Pradeep

I did not mean this as an assault on you.  I just felt that he had a good point.  

With that being said, after I posted I thought that maybe it was not a true comparison.  Film you could buy as you need it, whereas a digital camera you need to buy outright.  

[Jeffery Salter]

So is mine.

Turner, Schiele, Freud, Bacon, Salter…

Thanks for the lesson.

Thank you Keith.  I very much enjoy your interior studies.

[DucatiTerminator]

Thank you, very helpful post indeed!

Perhaps it is not a good idea to be honest here. It has suddenly become all about my own experience and how foolish I was etc etc. Most have drunk the Koolaid and are happy in their 'new clothes' without having the courage to admit that just maybe, maybe they are indeed naked!

If you cared to read my post fully, you would see that I was never complaining about the price, I happily paid what I did for the camera, just as I did more than twice that for my car. I am very happy with the latter, but the camera never delivered on what was assumed it would (yes, my fault for making the assumptions in the first place). I was complaining about the upgrade policy and depreciation, specifically of P-1 system, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. I also came in on page 8 because nobody had talked about their experience in all that time.

And yes, FYI, I did do all the things you suggest I should. I've done them perhaps for at least as long as you have (I don't know your story since you've not shared your experience on this thread). My first camera was a rangefinder in the 60s and my first DSLR was the Canon D60 in 2002. And yes, I've been to the museums, seen the Masters' work, learnt how to paint in order to understand how light paints an image in a camera, was a beta tester for Photoshop etc etc. That should give you an idea that I am not exactly a foolish amateur with too much money.

Perhaps it would be good once in a while for Professionals to accept the fact that there may be amateurs out there who do not make money from photography but are equally, if not more so, passionate about the art. That we too are eager to learn and improve ourselves and are constantly striving to do so, that we are, some of us, capable of spending the kind of money that keeps the industry going, that keeps the workshops of the professionals full. We learn from you, you earn from us (at least some of you do). It is a symbiotic relationship. We are amateurs ONLY because we do not make money from photography. Do not assume that every amateur is by definition a poor photographer or is clueless about the craft.

BTW, since you've made this personal, your work (at least from what I see on your website) is hardly inspiring, perhaps you need to go see the Masters again. And it is obvious your choice of artists is western, since you cannot spell Kurosawa correctly - BTW, I do have all his work in my collection.

It does not help when on a supposedly 'pro' forum such as this, those who have mastered the craft are quick to jump on the new guy on the forum because he/she has not yet paid his dues in the number  of use(less) posts and pontification.

Pradeep

Just for the record, I've taken over 4000 images with the Pentax in the past three months since I've owned it. Here is one taken in Africa after sunset at ISO1600. Now please tell me how I could have taken this with the Phase IQ180.

Pradeep,

The 900 shot citing was perhaps specific to you, however, I didn't read Jeffrey's post as an attack on you personally. It sounded more like a general nudge towards spending more time improving our craft instead of hashing out the same rhetoric on the forums. My $0.02.

Alvin

[DucatiTerminator]

Please.  Go buy any camera.  If a Phase is calling you buy one.  If a Yashica Mat tlr is calling you buy one.  If a Pentax 645D/Z is calling you buy one.

Then get up early, when the light is right and take that camera for a walk. Shoot lots of pictures.  Sorry gentleman it’s a cop out if you only shoot 900 pictures on a perfectly fine operating camera and decide "it" doesn't take good pictures. I would wager to say it’s more about learning the tool and understanding what’s it capable of doing then applying it to one’s vision.  Its a rare frame indeed for me that a picture is “bad” because of the camera.  I wish it was other wise…

I have made many images which just don’t work because of my choices…. bad composition, poor understanding of lighting, improper camera technique and simply having nothing to say in the image, i.e. poor content.  And all that is okay.  Because the only way to become a great (either technically or artistically)image maker  is to shoot thousands of images and learn from your mistakes. Rinse and repeat.

Excuses don’t take pictures.

If you don’t have any passion for your art.  Spending all your time bitching about camera prices is not going to put a print on your wall.  

If you don’t know:

Rembrandt, Vermeer, Hopper, Peder Balke,

Bill Brandt, Sebastian Selgado, Eugene Smith, Mary Ellen Mark,

Akira Kurasawa, Gordon Willis, Vittorio Storaro, Sven Nyvist

then perhaps you should.  

Learn what makes a great image.  Study how artists who inspire you create.  Find out what you want your images to say.  Study your craft.  All these will help you determine which “black box” or camera will be your partner on the path.

Wake up your passion for the image.

Thank you,
Jeffery

P.S. I realize my list of artists is highly western sensitive.  Others from around the world can share their sources of inspiration.

P.S. Sorry for the typo in my earlier post of Akira Kurosawa last name.

Thank you for this, Jeffrey. I sometimes forget that this passion of ours is about capturing beautiful images after all. You're on MY list, BTW.

Alvin

[Primus]

I did not mean this as an assault on you.  I just felt that he had a good point.  

With that being said, after I posted I thought that maybe it was not a true comparison.  Film you could buy as you need it, whereas a digital camera you need to buy outright.  

I did not see the point myself other than condescension that is so typical of so called professionals towards so called 'vanity amateurs'. To suggest that I need to go and 'improve my craft' from somebody whose craft despite being in the business of earning a living from it is mediocre at best is not helpful at all and is insulting. 

Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

Pradeep

[landscapephoto]

Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

But this discussion actually serves a very useful purpose: unveiling business practices around Phase One products. These business practices are  -how can I say politely?- rather suspect and appear to prey upon whom you called the "vanity amateurs" (possibly also upon the "unsuspecting professional", I don't know).

[Jeffery Salter]

Thank you, very helpful post indeed!

You are quite welcome.

Perhaps it is not a good idea to be honest here. It has suddenly become all about my own experience and how foolish I was etc etc. Most have drunk the Koolaid and are happy in their 'new clothes' without having the courage to admit that just maybe, maybe they are indeed naked!

I appreciate you sharing your camera shopping experiences. Feel free to wear clothes…..

If you cared to read my post fully, you would see that I was never complaining about the price, I happily paid what I did for the camera, just as I did more than twice that for my car. I am very happy with the latter, but the camera never delivered on what was assumed it would (yes, my fault for making the assumptions in the first place). I was complaining about the upgrade policy and depreciation, specifically of P-1 system, which is what this thread is supposed to be about. I also came in on page 8 because nobody had talked about their experience in all that time.

Okay.  I sincerely hope that you find a camera thats suits your vision and helps you express yourself. My post wasn’t about the “buying” it was about the “doing”.

And yes, FYI, I did do all the things you suggest I should. I've done them perhaps for at least as long as you have (I don't know your story since you've not shared your experience on this thread). My first camera was a rangefinder in the 60s and my first DSLR was the Canon D60 in 2002. And yes, I've been to the museums, seen the Masters' work, learnt how to paint in order to understand how light paints an image in a camera, was a beta tester for Photoshop etc etc. That should give you an idea that I am not exactly a foolish amateur with too much money.

Ah. I never mentioned anything about professionals or  amateur photographers.  But since you mention it.  Seeing the world fresh as an amateur.  With no limitations. Would be a wonderful place to be. I grabbed this off of wikipedia:  An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science in a non-professional or unpaid manner.  My post was about passion.  The French got it right.

BTW, since you've made this personal, your work (at least from what I see on your website) is hardly inspiring, perhaps you need to go see the Masters again.

I suck at photography.  I have no problem with that.  Everyday I wake up,  I say to myself “today is going to be a great day.  I can grow.  I can do better. I can learn.”  And you Pradeep?  

It does not help when on a supposedly 'pro' forum such as this, those who have mastered the craft are quick to jump on the new guy on the forum because he/she has not yet paid his dues in the number  of use(less) posts and pontification.

No one is “jumping” on you. Please be well. Go take your camera for a walk.

Just for the record, I've taken over 4000 images with the Pentax in the past three months since I've owned it. Here is one taken in Africa after sunset at ISO1600. Now please tell me how I could have taken this with the Phase IQ180.

Great shot thanks for sharing.  

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Pradeep,

Thanks for sharing you experience.

Personally, I own a P45+ back and I am very happy with it. But, it is also feel that it was a pretty bad expenditure I did.

My reasons to buy it was a bit different to yours. I read a lot about MFD. Being sort of scientific minded a lot made little sense to me. One way to find out was to jump on the train. I bought a used P45+ and a lot of old Hasselblad stuff. I like to shoot with the stuff, so it gives me some pleasure.

The results? Pretty exactly what I would expect from tests and spec-sheets, those data are pretty good!

So, on the plus side, I enjoy with shooting with the stuff. I can see a resolution/MTF advantage compared with the 24x36 stuff I have.

On the minus side:

• Sustainability, repairs can be extremely expensive.
• Weight vs. flexibility. MFD is not a substitute for 24x36, so I carry double kits. Around 18 kg.
• Fligths… having 18 kg of equipment is problematic with air travel.

My plan for the next stage was to buy a technical camera, H-Cam B1. Now, I decided to go with the Sony A7rII a Canon 24/3.5 TSE and a HCam-Master adapter I will use with my Hasselblad lenses.

Clearly, would I have the option to go say 80 MP on CMOS with live view on a 1.0X crop factor 645 back, I would go with it if cost was below 10k$US. But I don't pay more than 10k$US for a sensor and I don't buy less than 1.1X crop factor. So, MFD goes into limbo state and I am spending on Sony A7rII.

- Why I don't sell of the Hassy kit? I would miss it.

- Why I don't go with Canon 5Ds?  Because I don't think DSLRs with a flipping mirror are the future. Same applies for Nikon's offerings.

- Will I be happy with the Sony? Probably not! But, it is just a tool. If it does the job I will be happy.

As a side note, I considered renting some MFD equipment. But, I need to have some time to evaluate. Renting an MFD kit for a week would be more expensive than buying the P45+!

Cameras like the 645Z make some sense to me. Pentax can fall back on existing R&D for technology, has probably best weather sealing and a very competent lens maker. The reasons I didn't look into Pentax is that I don't know about their lens line and newly designed lenses are expensive. That said, the Pentax 645Z seems to be a great camera with a very attractive price.

Best regards
Erik

I did not see the point myself other than condescension that is so typical of so called professionals towards so called 'vanity amateurs'. To suggest that I need to go and 'improve my craft' from somebody whose craft despite being in the business of earning a living from it is mediocre at best is not helpful at all and is insulting.  

Finally, what you say is true. I don't know if you've ever been to a workshop where Phase has its products for testing and trying. There is not enough time to evaluate a truly expensive product thoroughly. The incentives offered are only available if you agree to buy there and then. There is no internet (at least not on a boat in the Arctic) to check facts as they are presented to you. You cannot go home and then rethink a month later and then expect to get the same discounts. There is also  subtle but definite encouragement from the existing P-1 owners and total indifference from the professionals who do not own the product but one sort of expects some guidance from. I suspect Phase pays for part of the expenses of such a workshop and hence it is a quid pro quo.

I am repeating again, that there is nobody else to blame but myself for buying a product that I ultimately could not use to my satisfaction.

I only responded to this thread because of the title and because nobody had so far come up with a real world story. I am sorry I did because now the focus is on me rather than on the (IMHO) unclear upgrade policy offered to the buyer initially.

And I am withdrawing from this discussion, it serves no purpose and I have better things to do.

Pradeep

[eronald]

Sounds great.

Could you share with us the extent of your testing in comparing the Pentax Z and Phase XF?

A. It's my opinion. Quickly arrived at, freely given, and probably worth as much as it costs you. Now, go and try by yourself.
B. My guess is that pigeons fly,  pigs don't. More testing won't necessarily change much here, even if an upgrade to PorcOS 2.0 is promised.

Edmund

[Primus]

I'll answer my own question.

According to the homepage it seems that some Luminous Landscape/Rockhopper Workshops have an association with Phase One in that Phase One cameras are available for use, but I'm uncertain if Phase One are actively selling.

Just to set the record straight.

No, it was not a LuLa workshop but independently organized by several pros from around the world with about 45 photographers present, mostly amateurs (here we go again) several P-1 users among them. The workshop was booked by me for my wife and myself (she is not a photographer) about 18 months in advance. The Phase salesperson just happened to be there.  So it was neither a PODAS nor a joint workshop in that strict sense. There was one pro who was a P-1 user himself and he did try to sell me his used kit during the workshop (which should have been a clue for me but blinded as I was by all the hype - yes, my fault entirely - I did not pick it up).

 I've been on internet forums for years, starting with the Usenet  in '92 and the one thing I've learned is that a pi$$ing contest only makes everyone wet and stinky. Apologies for getting into one. Will not happen again.

Pradeep

[FelixWu]

Thanks to the thread. I have been wanting to "upgrade" to MFD lately and have done tones of research. What I have gone through right now:
1)Initially I was drawn to the entry level such as IQ140, H5D40 then realised the sensor size difference and its limitations.
2)Upon deciding on which system to land to, I have also been told how wonderful C1 is and how is better than competition and how great the P1 ecosystem is.
3))Heard about the TrueFocus, but was told Shineider lenses are better. Even the Mamiya lenses are sharper, much cheaper.
4)I then moved on to P65+ for its full frame awesomeness, I completely drool over the photos taken using P65+ and that's what MF is all about. But its poor LCD and incompatibility with the new XF puts me off.
5)Now upon learning the OP's experience, I hesitate because it seems like the gear I invest will quickly depreciate.
6)Back to square one. I may take a second look at Canon5Ds and Pentax645Z...They are cheap in relative terms. Hope Pentax will release leaf shutter lenses soon. I shoot mostly outdoor with strobes and occasionally may do landscape.
7)Maybe it's just not the best time to buy into the MFD world as the it's certainly heading towards a new era. Maybe by the time I makeup my mind the IQ backs will drop another few grands and become more affordable.

[BernardLanguillier]

6)Back to square one. I may take a second look at Canon5Ds and Pentax645Z...They are cheap in relative terms. Hope Pentax will release leaf shutter lenses soon. I shoot mostly

If you consider those options, I would also consider the a7rII and the D810. They both offer what is widely considered as sensors superior to that of the 5Ds with only slighly lower resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard

[landscapephoto]

3))Heard about the TrueFocus, but was told Schneider lenses are better. Even the Mamiya lenses are sharper, much cheaper.

I don't know who told you that, but Hasselblad H series lenses are excellent.

5)Now upon learning the OP's experience, I hesitate because it seems like the gear I invest will quickly depreciate.

The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Where in the world are you located? It pays to shop worldwide for used MF gear, as the prices vary considerably around the world.

[BernardLanguillier]

The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Another key problem of those is that they typically perform in ways that is not clearly superior to the latest DSLR costing even much less.

It still makes sense if you use them in ways that are not possible for DSLRs (for example on a tech camera or with leaf shutter lenses).

Cheers,
Bernard

[landscapephoto]

Another key problem of those is that they typically perform in ways that is not clearly superior to the latest DSLR costing even much less.

1: that is not a real "problem", especially if the idea is to learn if the limitations of a MF camera fit your way of working

2: and, at least in my experience, that is not even true. I prefer the rendering of the lenses and, for me, this is a clear superiority of my camera (an H4D-50) over anything I have tried in 24x36 format. Obviously, since this is a question of taste, other people will have a different opinion.

[FelixWu]

I cannot say I have much affection towards mirrorless despite people claiming it's the futures . I don't like how EVF works and they are not as responsive in my little experience. I work with Profoto strobes so if I went with the canon I could at least take advantage of its HSS function with my TTL-C trigger. Nikon has one as well but I rather have one camera system or acquire a completely new system (645Z, hassy, P1 etc).

645Z has slow flash sync which isnt a problem for many landscape shooters but I bet they will release some LS lenses in near future. I can deal with slow sync with ND filters outdoor and live with those limitations for now.

I still may buy a second hand P65 if prices come down much further so I will treat it as my specialty portrait camera. But between 645Z and 5DS is there a huge difference to justify the extra cost?

What ever gear I buy I plan to use it to shoot portrait and editorial with flash both outdoor and indoor, and occasionally landscape. Any advice will be appreciated.

[FelixWu]

I don't know who told you that, but Hasselblad H series lenses are excellent.

Just some from other people's experience but they maybe biased. Some said even the expensive Hassy lenses don't resolve very well above 50MP and are not as sharp as the cheap Mamiya ones. I currently have no experience in using either. However I do wonder why the HCD lenses are not capable of producing full frame image?

The solution to that problem may be to buy used. Older MFs can be had for comparatively little money and still work very well. Their main limitations are the often only the poor LCDs on the back, which is of little consequence. You can use one to test whether you like the way MF cameras work and resell them after half a year. You will lose some money, but considerably less than on a new camera.

Where in the world are you located? It pays to shop worldwide for used MF gear, as the prices vary considerably around the world.

I know there are a lot of used glasses around but how does number of clicks affect lens performance? How many shots before a LS lens becomes useless?

Thanks

[eronald]

hmmm, has this thread been derailed by a carefully placed "newbie"?