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Author Topic: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?  (Read 9909 times)

narikin

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Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« on: March 31, 2015, 12:33:43 pm »

Hi All,

I'm trying to print an image with bright RED elements that must really pop out. It does on my (wide gamut) NEC screen, but sadly is much reduced when printed with Epson K3vM inks. Both soft proofing and printed reality disappoint - it's simply not the same image this way.

It's a little better on the 12-ink Canon ipf8300, with a dedicated Red cart, but not enough. Might I improve things on an HP, or some other printer/inkset?   It's being printed on Canson Platine, using hi sat custom profiles. I've soft proofed through multiple papers, and I found Epson Proofing paper seems to give a marginal boost, with its full color volume, but still nothing like the red in the file or onscreen with soft-proofing off. 

So: any suggestions on how to get a rich vibrant red in a print?

Tried looking at soft proofs of C-prints via Lambda or Fujiflex - worse than inkjet, it seems. This needs be pigment ink on a PK paper, as it's an 'art' print, though I suspect dyes may be more vibrant if we were to explore that route.
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howardm

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 12:46:30 pm »

could you consider using a spray-on finish?

John Caldwell

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 12:56:27 pm »

Have you tried a metallic paper?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 01:17:01 pm »


Tried looking at soft proofs of C-prints via Lambda or Fujiflex - worse than inkjet, it seems. This needs be pigment ink on a PK paper, as it's an 'art' print, though I suspect dyes may be more vibrant if we were to explore that route.
Pretty easy to “pop out” colors with a back lit system such as a display vs reflected light from a print. If you have complete control of the environment where the print is displayed often you can use lighting and print things a little dark to pop the image.

Hard to know what “red” you are after, there are many flavors.  I suspect the HP won’t do any better.

You may find the C print reds are better than the soft proof.  I know the strawberries in Bill Atkinsons test page are pretty rich, especially if printed on something like Kodak Metallic or Fujiflex.

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Czornyj

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 04:14:43 pm »

be realistic:
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

namartinnz

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 04:17:24 pm »

The reds on the Z3200 are pretty good, not that I've seen prints from an Epson or Canon to compare. But then again it may well be your monitor's gamut is just too rich to make a comparable print. And what sort of paper are you using for the print?

Neal

mstevensphoto

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 04:50:45 pm »

you are very likely running into the transmitted vs reflected light conundrum. you simply don't get the vibrance off of a reflected surface, even the best c prints never did the projected slide justice.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 05:53:41 pm »

Technically the HP Z3200 wins (by a hair) on the true reds when printing on Canson Platine over the Epsons and Canons. The Epson x900 wins on the orange/yellow side by a larger margin and the Canon 8300/8400 wins on blues/purples. The difference on the reds is really not that big in favor of the Z3200 as it used to be when it was released.
As Marcin said, be realistic. No printer today will give you a red close to what you get on a wide gamut display.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2015, 01:36:51 am »

If you'd like I can do a test print for your. But I think a couple people have pointed out that the screen vs reflective is different, and MUCH more pronounced in a wide gamut screen.
I use a XL30 Samsung as 1 of 3 screens I proof under and the wide gamut is going to be very rich in the reds. I like the suggestions given for differnt papers. I would be happy to do a test for you on the Z3200.
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kers

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 04:21:51 am »

...
So: any suggestions on how to get a rich vibrant red in a print?
...

it is all relative - so as long as your NEC monitor is not shown side by side and you have done your best to enhance it in print- it will pop..
You can also do some things on the display side - put a spot light on the reds... - that will make them pop out ..

PK
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Pieter Kers
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 04:28:32 am »


As Marcin said, be realistic. No printer today will give you a red close to what you get on a wide gamut display.

Right.  Even the Z3200 reds on Epson Proofing White Semi-Matte do not come close to that but they are very saturated for a print. A gloss finish like face mounted Diasec would improve on that impression, maybe not on actual color saturation. Beyond that it is N-color dye and N-color dye + back-lit I guess. Will be difficult to profile.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots






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William Chitham

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 04:56:00 am »

Depending on the image you may be able to accentuate the red by tweaking the colours around it. A given shade of red will look "redder" if surrounded by blue so cooling the rest of the colours in the print might help.

William.
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narikin

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 01:28:46 pm »

Thanks all for the useful replies.

Yes, Czornyj's "be realistic" is a useful sanity check. Also a reminder how far we have to go with our inkjet gamut, before we come close to ARGB. I did wonder about the new 10color (?) small format Epson's announced late last year, but that is not wide enough for a 40" print.

I'll think about the generous HP offers, (thanks Phil!) but it sounds from what's said here, that the gain is marginal, in any case.  This does indeed have to be a classic reflection print, and cannot be on metallics or backlit, or whatever.

Yes, it is relative, and with no comparison looks ok, but it really looks amazing on screen, that's the image I want to get closest to, and makes it very hard to accept the trade-down in gamut.  I'll do an iPF 8300 print, to compare, but expect to see only the smallest of difference.



« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 01:31:16 pm by narikin »
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huguito

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 01:36:44 pm »

Could you post the image in question?
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narikin

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2015, 06:08:49 pm »

Sadly I can't really - not my copyright.
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narikin

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2015, 09:17:01 am »

ps: I was half expecting someone to suggest a new generation Dye based printer like the Pixma Pro-100 as compromise solution.

Does anyone have a gamut plot for that dye-based system compared to Epson HDR or Canon Pigment?

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hugowolf

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2015, 09:59:56 am »

ps: I was half expecting someone to suggest a new generation Dye based printer like the Pixma Pro-100 as compromise solution.

Does anyone have a gamut plot for that dye-based system compared to Epson HDR or Canon Pigment?

Not much joy there…

Epson 9900 red, Canon Pro 100 green. Profiles from Canson for Platine




… and the 9900 and ipf8400 don't differ that much.

Brian A
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:14:36 pm by hugowolf »
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Paul Roark

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2015, 11:08:12 am »

ps: I was half expecting someone to suggest a new generation Dye based printer like the Pixma Pro-100 as compromise solution.

Does anyone have a gamut plot for that dye-based system compared to Epson HDR or Canon Pigment?



I agree that dyes probably have the potential to hit the highest gamut.  I do not have a gamut plot of the Epson advanced dyes (Claria, Noritsu, UltraChrome D6), but is side-by-side comparisons to pigment color prints, the dyes, in general, win the beauty contest.  I never saw a direct red comparison, however.

Paul
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Plateau Light

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2015, 12:02:35 am »

Selective color is your best tool. But I must ask are you clipping the gamut of your working space? And are you using pro photo as you're working space? Using pro photo with highly saturated colors leads to very problematic gamut compression.

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Best printer for a strong vibrant RED?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2015, 01:05:31 pm »

Not much joy there…

Epson 9900 red, Canon Pro 100 green. Profiles from Canson for Platine




… and the 9900 and ipf8400 don't differ that much.

Brian A

So that would seem to put the lie to the claim that dye based inkjet printers have a larger potential gamut than pigment based, yes ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 01:10:57 pm by Simon J.A. Simpson »
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