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Author Topic: set adobe print utility inches margins  (Read 13228 times)

digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 07:03:12 pm »

Tagging an image with a device link won't work, and even if it did, you may want to use a color conversion engine not available in Photoshop - i.e. you shouldn't be forced to use PhotoShop's color management just because Adobe can't imagine that anyone won't want to use it.
Sorry, not following you. First we have a non tagged image? It's got a DLP and needs to be printed in PS? What's the issue?
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Only if PhotoShop assumed that it's the be-all and end-all of color management. In a larger context, this need not be the case - the user may know what they are doing, and actually expect PhotoShop to do as they ask.
Again I'm not following you as to the issue. We've got RGB or CMYK data that either as a descriptor of the numbers or it doesn't. If it does, no problem and that's not under discussion. If not, how is PS supposed to understand how to treat the data? Can you explain a workflow where someone is opening untagged data in PS just to make a print and how PS is supposed to deal with that data when no color space is associated with the data? Why can't the user Assign the proper profile and make a print, why does the data have to be untagged?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 07:16:34 pm by digitaldog »
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 07:07:14 pm »

I'll give one example when I used a no color management print path in PS in the past (and it was rare). I have an image and a profile and I want to gang up two variations using the same profile but using two different rendering intents. Open image and duplicate. Convert to the print space using the profile (Convert to Profile) with both RI's, gang them up next to each other in the same document and print without further color management. Now I have to simply make two prints. Not a hill worth dying on and I can use the CS utility AFTER ganging up the two images in Photoshop.
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GWGill

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 12:46:26 am »

Again I'm not following you as to the issue. We've got RGB or CMYK data that either as a descriptor of the numbers or it doesn't.
If I take an RGB image, construct a device link to convert it to my printer space (using for instance, ArgyllCMS collink then cctiff to get the best possible gamut mapping and smoothest conversion), then it appears that there is no unambiguous and easy way with recent versions of PhotoShop to do anything further in that printer space and/or print it without risking a further conversion. Yes I could tag it with the printer profile and hope that it's bit for bit identical to the printer profile that PhotoShop thinks the printer is, but the whole issue is simply stupid - I should be able to tell it to do what I want unambiguously - do nothing - exactly the same as when I need to print a profile test chart, without having to second guess what PhotoShop is up to.
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If not, how is PS supposed to understand how to treat the data?
It's not - it's meant to do as it's told - print without color management - feed the device numbers to the printer.
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Why can't the user Assign the proper profile and make a print, why does the data have to be untagged?
That may well be a workaround to this missing option, if there is a way of assigning what PhotoShop thinks is the printer profile to the file without having to know exactly where that profile is - but if so, why do people keep trying to use ACPU ?
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 01:27:41 pm »

If I take an RGB image, construct a device link to convert it to my printer space (using for instance, ArgyllCMS collink then cctiff to get the best possible gamut mapping and smoothest conversion), then it appears that there is no unambiguous and easy way with recent versions of PhotoShop to do anything further in that printer space and/or print it without risking a further conversion.
I don't know about Device Link Profiles but you can send output ready RGB or CMYK through Print. When source and destination color space is identical, you will get the warning to download and use Adobe Color Print Utility. Press Cancel and just go ahead and print. It will output as it should. The issue is untagged data! PS will make some assumption about it. Now can you tag it with say sRGB and pick sRGB as I did with the output ready data? No, but can you do so by tagging it with an output profile? Maybe. But again, the only time one would do this is to print targets, something the folks who's software created the targets should handle.

I'm asking my sources inside Adobe about DLP's. But the tag source and destination output color space does work, I just tested it to my Epson (Convert to Epson output profile, pick that same profile in Print, cancel warning to download ACPU and print).
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GWGill

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 07:59:59 am »

When source and destination color space is identical, you will get the warning to download and use Adobe Color Print Utility. Press Cancel and just go ahead and print. It will output as it should.
Sure - but it's a terrible UI. The user shouldn't have to pull a trick like that - the print workflow should accommodate such things as printing calibration test charts or printing images that are already in the output space with something that is unambiguously and straightforward. Every color managed workflow has to have a way of printing test charts, or you can't make profiles for it, so you can never use it! (Catch 22).

So if you're designing a print workflow (Adobe, Apple & others), don't stuff around trying to make believe that this option isn't needed, do it properly.
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The issue is untagged data! PS will make some assumption about it. Now can you tag it with say sRGB and pick sRGB as I did with the output ready data? No, but can you do so by tagging it with an output profile? Maybe.
The correct way to handle test charts (and this is something I know from first hand experience of designing print workflows) is to tag it with a pseudo-space, or (if you like) a wild card space, one that is *always* the output space, no matter what actual profile that happens to be.
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But again, the only time one would do this is to print targets, something the folks who's software created the targets should handle.
Not really - that's a hacky workaround for a borked print workflow. For 100% certainty that the profile faithfully reflects any transformation in the workflow, the workflow should be kept constant, not one important element such as the print program being changed to print the test chart.
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I'm asking my sources inside Adobe about DLP's. But the tag source and destination output color space does work, I just tested it to my Epson (Convert to Epson output profile, pick that same profile in Print, cancel warning to download ACPU and print).
Right, and can you tag with "the output profile", or did you have to know precisely which ICC profile was going to be used ? If it's the latter, then it's not a very robust UI - it would be easy to get it wrong, and as soon as the printer profile is updated, your test chart is no longer going to work properly.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2015, 09:47:57 am »

Adobe could have retained the feature in Photoshop or even put it in LR and given it an eplicit button or dropdown menu that says "For Printing Non-Color Managed Targets for Profiling" or something like this.  I've done some profiles for friends and I always have to go through a lengthy explanation about the do's and don't's of printing targets for me to read.
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2015, 10:02:06 am »

Sure - but it's a terrible UI.
At least this product actually provides the user a UI!  ;)
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The user shouldn't have to pull a trick like that - the print workflow should accommodate such things as printing calibration test charts or printing images that are already in the output space with something that is unambiguously and straightforward. Every color managed workflow has to have a way of printing test charts, or you can't make profiles for it, so you can never use it! (Catch 22).
The product doesn't stop you! It pops a dialog that provides two options: One takes you to the ACPU download page, the other is Cancel and you are not forced to stop the print process. They could have done that (grayed out the Print button). You are free to possibly muck up the output to your heart's content.
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The correct way to handle test charts (and this is something I know from first hand experience of designing print workflows) is to tag it with a pseudo-space, or (if you like) a wild card space, one that is *always* the output space, no matter what actual profile that happens to be.
Then provide said print workflow. It isn't any more Photoshop's task to print untagged printer targets is it's your product's job to edit layer masks.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 10:11:18 am by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2015, 10:04:31 am »

Adobe could have retained the feature in Photoshop or even put it in LR and given it an eplicit button or dropdown menu that says "For Printing Non-Color Managed Targets for Profiling" or something like this.  
They could? They did, for years in Photoshop. It broke all kinds of print workflows most users expect.
I'm still waiting to hear of a valid workflow whereby someone needs to print an untagged target (or dog-forbid image) in this image & color managed pixel editor and why it's Adobe's responsibly instead of the people who built the target in the first place.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 10:40:47 am by digitaldog »
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2015, 02:26:18 pm »

Tried two hacks, one is a possible solution for those who want to go this route in PS to print untagged targets.

First thing I did was take an existing profile for my Epson 3880, duplicate it, alter internal names in ColorSync utility. Then the Print dialog warning about trying to proceed without color management doesn't appear.
Assign first profile to untagged target.
Select profile with altered name in Print, no dialog because it doesn't think it's the same profile but of course it is.
First I used an Absolute Colorimetric intent for output. Not so great. More data below. Then tried RelCol with BPC. That seems to work in producing a NULL transform but I want to do the measurements again tomorrow for a sanity check. Anyone else here with the means to do so, give it a try.

Printed untagged target in both ACPU and i1Profiler. Measure with iSis and compare. These targets didn't' sit over night to dry so I should repeat the test tomorrow.


ACPU vs. i1P:
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dE Report
Number of Samples: 918
Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.35
    Max dE:   1.33

    Min dE:   0.02
 StdDev dE:   0.20

Best 90% - (825 colors)
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Average dE:   0.31
    Max dE:   0.63
    Min dE:   0.02
 StdDev dE:   0.14

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
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Average dE:   0.77
    Max dE:   1.33
    Min dE:   0.64
 StdDev dE:   0.13

--------------------------------------------------
All the high dE values are in blues which I've seen in the past when the target needs more time to dry down.

ACPU vs. Photoshop Hack using Absolute:

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dE Report
Number of Samples: 918
Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.84
    Max dE:   3.97

    Min dE:   0.09
 StdDev dE:   0.53

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.70
    Max dE:   1.56
    Min dE:   0.09
 StdDev dE:   0.35

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
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Average dE:   1.99
    Max dE:   3.97
    Min dE:   1.57
 StdDev dE:   0.40

--------------------------------------------------
Max dE is high, this time in very dark values.

Much better reports using Relative Colorimteric with BPC to print in PS using this hack. Now we might be getting somewhere!

ACPU vs. Photoshop Hack using Relative Coloimetric with BPC:
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dE Report
Number of Samples: 918
Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.27
    Max dE:   0.76

    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.14

Best 90% - (825 colors)
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Average dE:   0.24
    Max dE:   0.45
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.11

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
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Average dE:   0.54
    Max dE:   0.76
    Min dE:   0.45
 StdDev dE:   0.08

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

i1P vs. Photoshop Hack using Relative Coloimetric with BPC:
--------------------------------------------------

dE Report
Number of Samples: 918
Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.24
    Max dE:   0.83

    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.14

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.20
    Max dE:   0.42
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.55
    Max dE:   0.83
    Min dE:   0.42
 StdDev dE:   0.10

--------------------------------------------------

I could supply two printer profiles so anyone who can't alter the internal names of a profile can over-ride the "Use ACPU" warning dialog.
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2015, 03:21:12 pm »

One other test I'll measure tomorrow is using the same profile, selecting "Cancel" when asked to go to ACPU download page, print target with RelCol+BPC. IF that works, hack is a bit easier (no need to duplicate and edit profile name). Should work.....
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2015, 05:13:10 pm »

The level of support requests for things that didn't work or people who misused the option was the reason it was removed.

Photoshop is many things to many people, but it doesn't need to be everything to everyone.  As Andrew has said, the argument is very simple - those who produce such devices should provide the utilities to use them and not rely on a third party product such as PS to use them.  Not everyone uses PS and it's a very expensive option if all you need is some way to print targets.

So Adobe provided a free tool - it's supported at an appropriate level for it being free and given the market size who "require" it.
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2015, 10:37:16 pm »

At least this product actually provides the user a UI!
If ArgyllCMS claimed to have a GUI, then criticizing for not having a GUI would be fair. But it only claims to be a command line set of tools, and therefore naturally it has a command line UI. Feel free to criticize any details of that you like (tool names, function, choice/order/defaults or arguments etc.), but saying it doesn't have a UI is patently false.
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GWGill

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2015, 10:42:46 pm »

Then provide said print workflow.
Sure - go buy a DiceNet/ColorStar/ColorBus RIP (Yes, that may not be easy - they haven't been made for 10 years.).
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GWGill

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2015, 10:46:40 pm »


Select profile with altered name in Print, no dialog because it doesn't think it's the same profile but of course it is.
First I used an Absolute Colorimetric intent for output. Not so great. More data below. Then tried RelCol with BPC. That seems to work in producing a NULL transform but I want to do the measurements again tomorrow for a sanity check. Anyone else here with the means to do so, give it a try.
I'd strongly suspect that it is not doing a NULL transform, but running the colors through the A2B of one and the B2A of the other. This is not a loss-less process for a CLUT profile, and for things like CMYK will re-set the separation, making a CMYK test chart useless.
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 11:14:14 pm »

If ArgyllCMS claimed to have a GUI, then criticizing for not having a GUI would be fair.
I made no such criticism. I'm simply pointing out there actually is a GUI and further, I disagree about your point: but it's a terrible UI.
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I'd strongly suspect that it is not doing a NULL transform, but running the colors through the A2B of one and the B2A of the other. This is not a loss-less process for a CLUT profile, and for things like CMYK will re-set the separation, making a CMYK test chart useless.
I don't know what it's doing and I suspect unless someone like Chris Cox or Dave P from Adobe (who knows the code) tells us, we're speculating. I do know that the dE values suggest that it is possible to print untagged targets though CC2014, not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea. Note that I've said it's a hack. I plan to measure the targets again tomorrow after dry down but even 'wet', it appears the measured numbers match two other products that are made to print untagged targets. And as I've said from the beginning, the folks who need to print untagged targets should look upon those products that built them to print them or find another product that didn't go out of it's way to avoid this workflow. Adobe isn't the least bit unclear that this isn't a task they wish to undertake (nor again should they have to). However, if this hack works, so be it.
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2015, 11:23:17 pm »

Sure - go buy a DiceNet/ColorStar/ColorBus RIP (Yes, that may not be easy - they haven't been made for 10 years.).
Perfect, use a 10 year old copy of Photoshop to print the untagged targets.  8)
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2015, 12:28:56 pm »

I could supply two printer profiles so anyone who can't alter the internal names of a profile can over-ride the "Use ACPU" warning dialog.
Looks like this is a necessary step as I measured a target printed by canceling the dialog in Print when source and destination is the same, compared it to ACPU. Both targets dried over night. Way off (mostly in blues). Seems for the hack to work, one needs to have two profiles that are identical expect for their internal names so Print 'converts' from source to destination with a null condition. Here's the report:

--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 918

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   3.34
    Max dE:  19.73

    Min dE:   0.06
 StdDev dE:   2.20

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   2.80
    Max dE:   5.10
    Min dE:   0.06
 StdDev dE:   1.10

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   8.15
    Max dE:  19.73
    Min dE:   5.13
 StdDev dE:   3.36

--------------------------------------------------
Here is a report from prints made yesterday, measured today (dry down) using ACPU and the proper Photoshop Hack using two profiles:

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dE Report

Number of Samples: 918
Delta-E Formula dE2000
Overall - (918 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.18
    Max dE:   0.70

    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Best 90% - (825 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.16
    Max dE:   0.31
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.07

Worst 10% - (93 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.39
    Max dE:   0.70
    Min dE:   0.31
 StdDev dE:   0.08

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
So, you really, really have to use  PS (CC2014) to print untagged targets? It has to behave just like ACPU (and i1P)? The dE report above illustrates it's doable. An Average dE: 0.18 is what' I'd expect to see from the iSis measuring two different printed targets.
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digitaldog

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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2015, 01:38:35 pm »

Perfect, use a 10 year old copy of Photoshop to print the untagged targets.  8)
And, you can't print a CMYK document with no color management unless you have a CMYK (non-PostScript) printer AFAIK. Anyone here fall into that rare camp?
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2015, 02:08:26 pm »

How you suppose to use it?
What happens if you attempt to print a target that is just smaller than letter size, does it still cause the scaling bug?
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Re: set adobe print utility inches margins
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2015, 06:05:01 am »

I don't disagree, that's just not going to happen. As I said, we had literally years of issues between printer manufactures drivers, Apple and Adobe and Adobe decided one 'fix' was to disable this print path.

Well I guess the saying that U.S companies bends backwards to please the client is valid for small and medium size companies that do have address provided and phone numbers etc. The larger companies like Adobe is like typical EU company.

Why does it always had to be that some Russian guy or somebody like GWGill has to fix something like this? You do not find it strange? The developer seems just lazy.

Long live opensource and freeware software, at least developers respond and have listed contacts, not like big companies.
BTW actually it is a good business practice to not do any business if company has not listed their contact info.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 06:08:15 am by smilem »
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