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Author Topic: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video  (Read 16915 times)

John Koerner

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Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« on: January 23, 2015, 09:06:54 pm »

Curious if any of you has actually used the Canon EOS 1D-C or not.

It is essentially a 1Dx with the ability to record 4K video.

Unlike the GH4, which is said to be terible in low light, the EOS 1D-C is supposed to have awesome, pro-level low-light capability.
It is usable with both EF lenses as well as Canon's Cinema lens lineup. It came out in 2013 ... yet I don't hear too many talking about it.

I guess that's because of the price(??) ... it's almost 10x the price of the GH4.

I would imagine that the next iteration is going to be not only improved, but I imagine cheaper, as other manufacturers are coming out with 4K as well ...

Jack
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:28:17 pm by John Koerner »
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 10:07:29 pm »

I don't do video, but $6000 for an upgrade from 2K to 4K video is pretty hefty!  Ouch!  I would think for $12K there would be better options.
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 10:14:13 pm »

I don't do video, but $6000 for an upgrade from 2K to 4K video is pretty hefty!  Ouch!  I would think for $12K there would be better options.

Like what better options? Or do you just hate it because it's a Canon?

Since the 1Dx is $6,700, it's actually a $5000 upgrade, but I'm curious as to what camera offers better options, better low light capability, better lens range, plus full 4K cinema-quality video, for less money?

I do think there is room for improvement, mostly in duration of recording, which I expect to come in the next iteration ... but it sounds like it is without peer otherwise. Hence the price.

Only when others catch up and offer something comparable will the price probably come down ...

Jack
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eronald

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 11:38:45 pm »

I think you need to say what your parameters are. I have a $1.5K GH4 which does *very* sharp 4K@200Mbs video internally, Blackmagic have some cheap cameras which do 4K *raw* I believe,  Samsung has the NX1 $1.5K camera which has got good reviews and does 4K H265, and of course there is the Sony A7s which has spectacular low light performance, far better than the 1DC, and can do 4K with an external recorder, and then there are a bunch of 4K  camcorders, e.g.. Sony  AX100 at $2K and the very interesting FS7 which is about $8K or $10K with lens. So I'm not going to make fun of the 1Dc, but on the other hand you need to say what your criteria are ... my GH4 is a toy, but it is also not exactly a toy as it can do broadcast-quality documentary work :)

Edmund

Like what better options? Or do you just hate it because it's a Canon?

Since the 1Dx is $6,700, it's actually a $5000 upgrade, but I'm curious as to what camera offers better options, better low light capability, better lens range, plus full 4K cinema-quality video, for less money?

I do think there is room for improvement, mostly in duration of recording, which I expect to come in the next iteration ... but it sounds like it is without peer otherwise. Hence the price.

Only when others catch up and offer something comparable will the price probably come down ...

Jack
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:08:30 am by eronald »
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2015, 01:11:50 am »

I think you need to say what your parameters are. I have a $1.5K GH4 which does *very* sharp 4K@200Mbs video internally, Blackmagic have some cheap cameras which do 4K *raw* I believe,  Samsung has the NX1 $1.5K camera which has got good reviews and does 4K H265, and of course there is the Sony A7s which has spectacular low light performance, far better than the 1DC, and can do 4K with an external recorder, and then there are a bunch of 4K  camcorders, e.g.. Sony  AX100 at $2K and the very interesting FS7 which is about $8K or $10K with lens. So I'm not going to make fun of the 1Dc, but on the other hand you need to say what your criteria are ... my GH4 is a toy, but it is also not exactly a toy as it can do broadcast-quality documentary work :)
Edmund

Thanks for the feedback.

Honestly, I am not sure what my parameters are. I just am interested in making my next camera purchase be one which has 4K video, though I am not only looking for a camcorder.

It looks like the Sony A7 only shoots standard HD, but the NX1 does looks interesting too (forgot about that one!).

I am curious why you would "make fun of" the 1D-C. Have you actually used it?

If so, do you honestly think the GH4 can compare as an overall tool?

Would be interested in hearing from someone who's actually used the 1D-C as opposed to someone "with an opinion" who's not used it.

Thanks,

Jack
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 04:30:05 am »

It looks like the Sony A7 only shoots standard HD

Yes, but the a7s shoots 4k.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2015, 08:00:41 am »

Nobody is making fun of the 1Dc: in fact I will probably buy one used when the prices crash, as a followup to the 1Ds3 I bought used. The guy who runs EOSHD.COM seems to have bought one used just now, you can probably contact him for impressions.

Video seems interesting because there really are huge differences between the results of different brands!

Edmund



I am curious why you would "make fun of" the 1D-C. Have you actually used it?

If so, do you honestly think the GH4 can compare as an overall tool?

Would be interested in hearing from someone who's actually used the 1D-C as opposed to someone "with an opinion" who's not used it.

Thanks,

Jack
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 08:03:55 am by eronald »
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Manoli

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 08:20:03 am »

The guy who runs EOSHD.COM seems to have bought one used just now, you can probably contact him for impressions.

Suggest checking Philip Bloom's blog review and his

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eronald

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2015, 11:23:29 am »

Suggest checking Philip Bloom's blog review and his




If you wanna do 4K, you would also do well to find your computer system before your camera ...
I loaded some of my GH4 rushes into Resolve Lite yesterday,  on a current MBP Retina and the result was stutter, stutter stutter ... probably need to make proxies or something.

Edmund
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 11:52:02 am »

Like what better options? Or do you just hate it because it's a Canon?

Since the 1Dx is $6,700, it's actually a $5000 upgrade, but I'm curious as to what camera offers better options, better low light capability, better lens range, plus full 4K cinema-quality video, for less money?


Actually, his main criteria seemed to be low light shooting so the 1Dx/1Dc looks good for that.

As to alternatives, I would go to a purpose built 4K video camera! Don't know any of his other criteria, but I would start with something like Panasonic HC-X1000 (0 Lux Night Mode = Shoot clear, detailed images even while observing wildlife in the dark (0 lux), taking advantage of infrared rays and IR-LED lighting.) and work my way from $3400 up!
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Manoli

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 01:55:51 pm »

You would also do well to find your computer system before your camera ...
I loaded some of my GH4 rushes into Resolve Lite yesterday,  on a current MBP Retina and the result was stutter, stutter stutter ... p

Edmund,

Don't complain - I didn't even get to the stutter, stutter stutter ... it froze, period!

For the time being, just compiling 60 sec short compilations, friends, family - memento clips - off an RX100 and similar 2K. Nothing too serious. I've been following the advice and suggestions of Morgan Moore, Cooter et al, but can't find nirvana with any of the pro software. Resolve is probably the path I'd go down , but it's a serious commitment in time, knowledge, learning curve etc.  A bit like starting Photoshop all over again, 15 years on, but this time with 10x the complexity.  [  ::)]

So I've settled on using Photoshop (and Lr). Haven't tried any 4K in it, but I see that there's a 4K file render option. Out of curiosity have you tried it ?

M


Edit:
Just saw this post on EOSHD :

Transcode to 4K ProRes over 3x faster with FCPX
FCPXís performance is astounding. On my Macbook Pro Retina 15″ and 27″ iMac 2013 it was the only one capable of playing 4K MJPEG material in realtime, flawlessly. Resolve canít do it. Premiere canít do it. Quicktime and VLC Player canít do it. ...

Need to read the full post, though.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:18:33 pm by Manoli »
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2015, 02:17:01 pm »


If you wanna do 4K, you would also do well to find your computer system before your camera ...
I loaded some of my GH4 rushes into Resolve Lite yesterday,  on a current MBP Retina and the result was stutter, stutter stutter ... probably need to make proxies or something.

Edmund

I don't know Jack squat about Macs, but...

First issue is basic data throughput.  Decoding the video should not be a problem unless some really hateful options are set for encoding and no handheld device probably has the processing to do that in any real time sense.   I decode 2K video on a lowly Intel i3 w/ 4GB of memory using built in Intel graphics on the chip (Home Theater PC).  Encoding/transcoding is a whole other issuing and is extremely processing intensive.  You definitely want a purpose built chip to offload this from the CPU.  I've been using nVidia 750 or 760.  You would also want to add a Matrox, RedRocket or BlackMagic Designs card to offload processing from the GPU.

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bcooter

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 02:28:52 pm »

I briefly tested it when it was $15,000 and passed, mainly because of 8 bits and lower bps, the cost and the ability to function as a real motion camera.

The 1dc is a 422 8 bit camera, the sony a7s 8 bit 420.   Both do high iso well (though the higher you go the softer the file), but grading an 8 bit file usually requires to shoot with decent lighting and/or supplemental lighting and can band.

Al of this is very subject, style, anticipation dependent.  Best is to rent from Borrowlens and work in your style, just like stills.

Or . . .

Maybe you don't want other opinions, but . . .

Actually for $11,000 a C300 though 2k is a better motion camera and will be a lot cheaper in the long run than any dslr as you'll need a cage, some type of xlr inputs, or sound recorder, usually a secondary monitor or monitor recorder.

(The C100's and c300's actually shoot 4k but down sample rather than line skip so moire and alaising aren't usually a big problem).

An A7s to get to 4k goes to up to $6,500 real quick with a 4k recorder, sound accessories and it will also be an 8 bit camera.

Really the best deal is a gh4, some fast voight manual focus lenses, a 4k recorder for 10 bit files though you'll still get up there in price.

If you serious about motion capture there is an endless cost upgrade. 

Also if you manually focus still servo lenses are not easy to use, mechanical lenses are much more precise and 6k or 2k get the same look if your not in focus.

This setup is a $3,000 lens, a $3,500 viewfinder to get to a smallish form factor.



Honestly there is no all in one small 4k that shoots a robust file, except the sony fs7 and even then it doesn't yet shoot pro res and needs conversion for fast editing.

Then again, I'm probably not the best to give advice, because I lug 25 to 35 lb red ones around because I love the look of the file and feel it's worth it, though after a hard week of production I look very hard at a Canon c300 or c500 due to the small and lightweight form factor.



Also keep in mind the 1dc is going to keep going down in price as Canon has to respond to the Sony fs7.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4k c300 type camera soon, but that's just a guess as Canon seems to be very slow in their upgrades.

For quick shooting the very best deal I've found is a Canon 70d.  It shoots a rather dslr looking 8 bit file but autofocuses like crazy and is easy and fast all for a $800 to $900 camera.

Also  remember that the h264 codec was meant for video streaming, not actual video capture and some people have issues with all flavors of avchd (though the latest versions are better).

The most interesting camera is the Samsung NX1.    I don't think it's a true cinema camera, but the price is hard to deny and though it shoots h265 and right now is fairly slow to convert to a useable codec h265 allows for better detail at lower bit rates.

With motion capture there is two ways to go.  You can dip your toe in the water or dive off a cliff, but anything in between will show.

To really get pro with a dslr you can quickly get to something like this.



IMO

BC
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eronald

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 08:07:50 pm »

dupe - deleted
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 11:25:36 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 08:23:13 pm »

Manoli,

 It's interesting, we're both setting down the same road, although I've chosen to start by doing 5 minute documentaries.  

 I know there is some way of using Photoshop for grading, including using ACR, see my GH4 page , but my CC license has just run out, and I haven't yet renewed it.

 There's a link to a one-hour FCPX tutorial off my GH4 page as well. It does get you launched. FCPX has a free trial, Resolve Lite is free, my feeling is that one probably cannot live without using something like Resolve in the long run.  

 The software side really is like going down a rabbit hole.

 The hardware side is frustrating because it looks like rigs are meant for teams. Are you using an assistant or deciding to go solo?

 I just got my interview sound sorted - tip: use a shell and dead cat even around a Lavalier, it totally changes the sound quality. I chatted to a soundman who does records, and found out that there is as much work you can do on sound as on image ...


 Here is a still from the GH4 project I am currently doing. It won't win any prizes, but I think I will get it done without editing knowledge, using the out of camera look. I have model releases.



Edmund


Edmund,

Don't complain - I didn't even get to the stutter, stutter stutter ... it froze, period!

For the time being, just compiling 60 sec short compilations, friends, family - memento clips - off an RX100 and similar 2K. Nothing too serious. I've been following the advice and suggestions of Morgan Moore, Cooter et al, but can't find nirvana with any of the pro software. Resolve is probably the path I'd go down , but it's a serious commitment in time, knowledge, learning curve etc.  A bit like starting Photoshop all over again, 15 years on, but this time with 10x the complexity.  [  ::)]

So I've settled on using Photoshop (and Lr). Haven't tried any 4K in it, but I see that there's a 4K file render option. Out of curiosity have you tried it ?

M


Edit:
Just saw this post on EOSHD :

Transcode to 4K ProRes over 3x faster with FCPX
FCPXís performance is astounding. On my Macbook Pro Retina 15″ and 27″ iMac 2013 it was the only one capable of playing 4K MJPEG material in realtime, flawlessly. Resolve canít do it. Premiere canít do it. Quicktime and VLC Player canít do it. ...

Need to read the full post, though.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:13:20 pm by eronald »
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2015, 09:23:21 pm »

Nobody is making fun of the 1Dc: in fact I will probably buy one used when the prices crash, as a followup to the 1Ds3 I bought used. The guy who runs EOSHD.COM seems to have bought one used just now, you can probably contact him for impressions.

Video seems interesting because there really are huge differences between the results of different brands!

Edmund

Apparently so!
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2015, 09:33:10 pm »

Suggest checking Philip Bloom's blog review and his

Thank you for posting these ...
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2015, 09:34:54 pm »


If you wanna do 4K, you would also do well to find your computer system before your camera ...
I loaded some of my GH4 rushes into Resolve Lite yesterday,  on a current MBP Retina and the result was stutter, stutter stutter ... probably need to make proxies or something.

Edmund

I took the plunge and got my 70" 4K television ... next is my monitor  :D
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2015, 09:36:58 pm »


Edit:
Just saw this post on EOSHD :

Transcode to 4K ProRes over 3x faster with FCPX
FCPXís performance is astounding. On my Macbook Pro Retina 15″ and 27″ iMac 2013 it was the only one capable of playing 4K MJPEG material in realtime, flawlessly. Resolve canít do it. Premiere canít do it. Quicktime and VLC Player canít do it. ...

Need to read the full post, though.

Valuable info ... I need to bookmark this ... thanks!
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS-1D C / 4k Video
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2015, 10:55:26 pm »

Actually, his main criteria seemed to be low light shooting so the 1Dx/1Dc looks good for that.

As to alternatives, I would go to a purpose built 4K video camera! Don't know any of his other criteria, but I would start with something like Panasonic HC-X1000 (0 Lux Night Mode = Shoot clear, detailed images even while observing wildlife in the dark (0 lux), taking advantage of infrared rays and IR-LED lighting.) and work my way from $3400 up!

Hi. And thank you. Actually, I am a still nature shooter, basically.

I want to have video capability in case I happen upon opportunities where recording video would be more valuable ... with the idea of piecing random nature encounters together over time for a pleasing full video sequence.

Because 4K is available, I am merely wanting to make my next purchase with that in mind ... but am by no means a full videographer.
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