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Author Topic: Advice on canvas or paper print  (Read 2280 times)

water1

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Advice on canvas or paper print
« on: January 15, 2015, 08:45:00 am »

I've been asked to print a fairly large print ( approx. 24" high by 84" wide ) that has viewing challenges. It will be positioned above an interior double door entry way. Above the print is a single downlight sconce attached to the wall that projects well enough to wash the print as an accent with adequate ambient light to provide fairly even light to the left and right of the entire width. The problem I see is that as you approach the print for closer viewing, a print behind glass will easily reflect the light and the shape of the sconce as an invasive element.
To help mitigate the reflective issue, my options may be to either print on either a matte canvas or matte paper print, The canvas at that size will come with the problems of mounting and the risk of eventual sagging or buckling. The paper without glass may be vulnerable to environmental effects far sooner than the coated canvas. Either of the materials would be prersented within a frame.

Thoughts on solutions?

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Miles

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 08:59:37 am »

You could try gluing canvas to gator board and then framing.  Coat the canvas as you would for a gallery wrap. 

Another idea would be to use a fine art paper like Breathing Color Pura Velvet or similar and spray a protective coating on the print and eliminate the glass. 

Good luck.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 11:11:48 am »

Or print to a matte adhesived back *"canvas" and place directly on wall, like wall paper prints. This can be edge to edge, depending on placement and image can be very striking
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:45:48 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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bill t.

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 02:28:01 pm »

I hate reflections.

The only affordable way I know to place a piece in a location that has reflection issues like that is to use a media like one of the impressively lovely Epson Cold or Hot Press papers, and present it with absolutely no applied coating or overlaminate of any kind whatsoever.  Just a bare print.  That stuff (and most matte media) has wonderful resistance to reflections.  However, the second you apply ANY kind of coating, you will have either bright specular reflections with a glossy coating, or more diffuse but much larger areas of hazing with matte coatings.

There is a myth that you can suppress reflections or hazing by using matte coatings.  That is completely wrong.  Matte coatings simply change small bright reflections to much bigger more diffuse reflections that are much worse than with no coatings at all.  The only way reflections can ever be suppressed with coated or glossy media is to place the piece in a location that does not engender reflections.

So since your image is sort of out of harm's way from busy fingers, sneeze particles, and maybe even Windex raindrops, you may get away with a bare, matte print.  If not, spend $500 on 1/2 sheet of Optium.

OK, there is one other possibility.  Use an extremely bumpy media surface, and coat it generously with lots of gloss coating.  What you will get is a presentation where you view a starlight sea of extremely bright highlights that nevertheless do not cover so much of the whole image that you can not make out that there's an image there.  The effect maintains the sense of contrast on the surface of the print.  In that situation you can still make out significant areas of the image around the tiny highlights.  It's better than a kick in the pants, slightly.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:31:04 pm by bill t. »
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water1

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 02:43:32 pm »

It appears that no one is feeling the canvas solution. My canvas base would have been Breathing Color's Lyve and my matte print would be Canson Rives. I'm familiar with each of these and I'm looking to print and frame this as truly a legacy piece. Materials cost takes a back seat to permanence and presentation.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 03:10:01 pm »

... I'm looking to print and frame this as truly a legacy piece. Materials cost takes a back seat to permanence and presentation.

+1 for a matte media like Epson Hot Press. It seems to soak up reflections. For permanence I'd mount it behind Optium. If it's totally uncovered stuff in the air will build up on the surface over the years. Museum Glass would be way too heavy so the only viable alternative is Optium acrylic.
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bill t.

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 03:34:16 pm »

I can feel the canvas solution!  For that particular situation, a super glossy coating on Hahdnemuehle Photo Canvas 320 would give a very nice "starlight sea over image" effect under heavy reflections, as I mentioned above.  It's particular weave is not as vertically polarized as Lyve, and I feel the somewhat random sparkles on the Hahn stuff would be almost lovable.  You would need to mount the Hahn 320 on Gator, it's kind of thin and I'm not sure such an awkward size would hold a stretch well over the long term.
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robcoomer

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 04:28:50 pm »

I would go with a nice textured matte canvas with a matte coating, art wrapped with bracer bars, and stretched TIGHTLY, and stapled well. You know you tap the surfaces and you get that nice "thrummm" sound. . . like an artist's/painter's canvas you would see in a gallery.

If there is a big issue with reflection, and that may also have a lot to do with the image, and the light / darkness of it, they could change the bulb, or go with an eyelet or other reflector on the fixture if needed. I wouldn't compromise the piece when a low tech solution may be the best one.
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 10:59:14 pm »

I've used matte canvas, Breathing Color Lyve, with their Matte Timeless coating with great results.  I have a canvas that's 17" x 96" done this way and you can place it just about anywhere without glare.  I use Upper Canada Stretchers 1.5" Gallery Wrap bars (they ship to US as well). They're 'keyed' which means if you get any significant sagging, a little tap with a hammer on the corner keys, and you're back to drum tight.  It's all I use now for canvas.
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Mike Guilbault

water1

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 06:52:38 am »

Glad for the input on the canvas. This was my original thinking as the solution, but ask to be talked out of it otherwise. Regardless of the approach, I thoroughly would like to exhaust the possibilities for both my benefit and others.

The space is a visitors center that has similar multiple downlight sources. I highly doubt adjustments could be made for the framed print. My objective is to fit and complement to the architectural elements and turn what liabilities there are for lighting to my advantage as a display piece.

I had a lengthy discussion last night with the support staff at Breathing Color. As it was late, there wasn't anything conclusive, but the thought of an adhesive to Gator Board, or an archival pH neutral backing was discussed. It was left that among them they would come up with a recommendation for this approach as an alternative to stretching.

Previous posts suggest Optium over paper and Canada stretchers. There is an Optium dealer in my area that I will meet with next week. The Canada stretchers are interesting as their website reveals unusual and creative solutions. I'm inclined to take it it to the printed canvas route as the visitors center relates to historic exhibits. I'll have more later as it may translate for others.
Thanks for your ideas.
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Paul2660

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 07:26:57 am »

I would also consider canvas. Use 1/2 inch gator for a print of this size.

Non coated matte canvas will be a nightmare as it will shiw every fingerprint or smudge plus overtime dust will get on the face of the print and when cleaning the face it will scratch.

Breathing color has a matte version of Timeless that might give you the look you want.

However I just did 3 large 24 x 60 prints for a local hospital all on BC Crystalline.  They looked great and reflections were not an issue. As your print will be up out of reach you should be OK with non coated glossy Crystalline. The latest version of Crystalline from 2013 and out is IMO excellent. Breathing Color fixed all the issues I was having and it's very east to stretch with a mild "hand". No weave issues for me.

A paper print of this size will need to be dry mounted and will be a hassle to work with. Also matte paper is very very delicate and really needs a coating or glazing as over time it will pick up dirt, dust, small bugs etc. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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water1

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 08:27:54 am »

Paul,
so you did stretch rather than mount? I'm curious to see what Breathing Color comes up with as a mounting approach to Gator board. I would have thought they would have immediately recommended a coating of timeless to the board and the back of the canvas to adhere to each other.
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Paul2660

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 09:02:55 am »

I have done it both ways, on the recent order stretched. 

Note, if you Crystalline on gator with miracle muck to mount, you need to coat the Crystalline.  Odd's are you will get some water on the face during the mounting and that will pull the ink.   If I am going to Gator, I still print on 800M, or Lyve and coat it with Timeless before I mount.

IMO Crystalline stretches very easily, I love to work with it now.  I have not had any issues in the last 10 rolls 44 or 36 that were 2013 batch or newer. 

On a 9900, you need to use the "wider" platen gap, BC recommend widest, but I get pronounced banding at widest. No problems with wider.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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AFairley

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 10:53:42 am »

Before going the Optium route, I'd check the placement carefully.  Anti-reflective coats glass such Museum Glass or AR will reflect light sources (as opposed to the ambient environment) nothing you can do about it, and I assume Optium is the same.  May be best to go commando.
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water1

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Re: Advice on canvas or paper print
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 04:28:04 pm »

I set the criteria out as listed above and I just pulled this from a return email from Breathing Color:

"Based on your description of the product, it sounds like mounting the print to a board would be the way to go. I wouldn’t recommend Crystalline canvas. It comes in a Gloss and Satin finish and its primary advantage is that it doesn’t need to be varnished. For your project, I would definitely recommend varnishing(at least 2 coats) so the matte Lyve or Chromata White canvas would be the better option. For the adhesive and the varnish, I would recommend our Glamour 2. It is an archival varnish which comes in a matte finish, perfect for that invisible layer of protection you are looking for. Also, when undiluted Glamour 2 can also be used as an archival adhesive for wet mounting prints. That process is detailed in this blog article. Let me know if there is anything else I can do for you and have a nice day."

 
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