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Author Topic: Je suis Charlie  (Read 32241 times)

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2015, 12:21:49 pm »

Perhaps we (and especially the media) should stop calling these people terrorists and begin calling them what they really are: cowards.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali calls it like it is, something no Western leader today has the balls to do.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4160195.htm

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2015, 12:36:53 pm »

Churchill had something of a penchant for putting down those who disagreed with him. I can't remember the names of those involved but a playwright, critical of Churchill, once sent him two tickets to his opening night, inviting him to bring a friend, "if he had one". Churchill declined the offer saying that , "I can't make the first night but will get to the second, if there is one."

George Bernard Shaw.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2015, 12:40:02 pm »

do we have any genuine muslims here in this thread ?

I don't know: happily, a declaration of religious affiliation is not a prerequisite for taking part in discussions here. Your presence does at least mean that we have an apologist for murder, with all the valuable insight that that is likely to provide.

Jeremy
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Isaac

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2015, 01:05:34 pm »

There is a difference between intentionally offending somebody/something and unintentionally offending somebody/something.

The difference that matters is between offending and killing.
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Isaac

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2015, 01:11:03 pm »

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Those comments seem factual and correct afaict.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2015, 01:34:35 pm »

I don't know: happily, a declaration of religious affiliation is not a prerequisite for taking part in discussions here.

no, but it is a prerequisite for a reasonable discussion about the topic

Your presence does at least mean that we have an apologist for murder, with all the valuable insight that that is likely to provide.


I am lost - for which murder exactly ?
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Misirlou

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2015, 05:18:59 pm »

Here's a thought, say you fancy being a serial killer/mass murderer and are not sure how to best go about it or don't fancy getting caught. Then why not join the local terrorist group where people will help you with your murderous tendencies and even supply you with weapons.
Eamon Collins, who joined the IRA for political reasons became disillusioned with his comrades in the struggle as it became clear that some of them simply liked killing people. The 'struggle' was simply an excuse to hurt people. He wrote about his time in the IRA in the fascinating book Killing Rage. I gather that some of the IRA went back to being gangsters after the ceasefire.

That's quite an interesting point. Maybe it gets even murkier if we consider what Stanley Milgram proved in the 1960s, i.e. that people can be persuaded to do horrible things to one another in the name of "obedience" (which is, in fact, what the word "muslim" really means).
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jjj

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2015, 06:23:01 pm »

But recent history has proven that in some parts of the world, just BEING a non-Muslim (e.g., Christian, Jew) or just being born the wrong sort of Muslim is offensive enough to spur certain people into depraved ‘revenge’.
Only slightly less recent history had Christians doing much the same thing.
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Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2015, 06:28:24 pm »

I can't help laughing at what's going on because of Charlie Hebdo.

There was the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. According to the media it was a "wakeup call."........
[snip]
.......2015 begins with the Charlie Hebdo murders. According to the NYT and similar media a "wakeup call."

I've left out dozens of minor attacks and major attacks -- like Mumbai in 2008 -- outside the U.S. We keep getting these "wakeup calls," but after tossing and turning for a few days we hit the snooze button. When the hell are we going to get out of bed and fight back?
America has already done that. For example when some Saudi's blew up the Twin Towers, you struck back and invaded  Saudi.. Iraq.
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jjj

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2015, 06:31:41 pm »

I don't know: happily, a declaration of religious affiliation is not a prerequisite for taking part in discussions here. Your presence does at least mean that we have an apologist for murder, with all the valuable insight that that is likely to provide.
So why should deejjjaaa apologise for the actions of some terrorists? Are you saying he was involved?
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jjj

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #130 on: January 12, 2015, 06:38:49 pm »

That's quite an interesting point. Maybe it gets even murkier if we consider what Stanley Milgram proved in the 1960s, i.e. that people can be persuaded to do horrible things to one another in the name of "obedience" (which is, in fact, what the word "muslim" really means).
Some people do not need persuading. They just need an opportunity.

Also I recently discovered that being the sort of person who won't agree with someone else just to be polite, means I'm less likely to torture others.

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RSL

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #131 on: January 12, 2015, 07:55:16 pm »

America has already done that. For example when some Saudi's blew up the Twin Towers, you struck back and invaded  Saudi.. Iraq.

Not the same thing, Jeremy. I'm not going to go back over the reasons for attacking the Taliban or Iraq. They're well known. But conventional military operations in neither Afghanistan nor Iraq are what's required to reduce the problem. I say "reduce" because I doubt we can eliminate it. In neither the U.S. nor in Britain are leaders willing to acknowledge that Islam is something other than "peaceful." That's the first step in enlightenment and defense.
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #132 on: January 12, 2015, 08:21:28 pm »

Only slightly less recent history had Christians doing much the same thing.

If you're referring to the Crusades, I suppose you're half-right. I remember the 1200s like it was yesterday.
Or is there something else you have in mind as an example of 'Christians doing much the same thing'?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #133 on: January 12, 2015, 08:22:25 pm »

... I remember the 1200s like it was yesterday...

 ;D ;D ;D

Colorado David

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #134 on: January 12, 2015, 08:44:47 pm »

Everyone conveniently forgets (for their own purposes) that the Crusades were not an effort to conquer Islamic lands.  They were an effort to retake lands that had been taken by Islamic military action.  The Christians did not take the first shot.  Here's a little background  http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?loc=ja&article=1483

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #135 on: January 12, 2015, 09:00:26 pm »

Everyone conveniently forgets (for their own purposes) that the Crusades were not an effort to conquer Islamic lands.  They were an effort to retake lands that had been taken by Islamic military action.  The Christians did not take the first shot.  Here's a little background  http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?loc=ja&article=1483

+1.

I was taught that 400 years of Muslim conquest were countered by 200 years of pushing back by Christians. But then I was educated in the US, so there's that.   ;D

Millions died on both sides, however all this carnage paled in comparison to that perpetrated by the Mongols.

What's the point that's even remotely relevant to what we've seen over the past 15 years?
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Colorado David

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2015, 09:30:39 pm »

Quote
What's the point that's even remotely relevant to what we've seen over the past 15 years?

It's something for them to throw back at the West to try to justify their violence against innocents.

Jonathan Wienke

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2015, 10:08:30 pm »

It's something for them to throw back at the West to try to justify their violence against innocents.

It's also used by liberal/progressive types to justify the action of the terrorists on the grounds that they were oppressed, downtrodden, victims segregated from society at large, and therefore it is understandable that they would act out violently--essentially blaming the victims for their own deaths. "Little Eiechmanns" comes to mind.

What the apologists fail to understand, or more likely deliberately ignore, is that in most Western countries, including the USA, Britain, and France, the Muslims tend to form insular enclaves with their own schools and stores and entertainment and lifestyle. You have the Somali enclaves in the Minneapolis area, a large Muslim population in Dearborn, and similar communities in Britain and France. Children born in these enclaves are usually educated in Muslim schools, and don't see much of the outside world, unless their parents are secular/non-practicing Muslims. In many cases, these enclaves bring the dysfunctional social institutions of the parent country (honor killings, sexual assaults, etc.) with them. But when that self-imposed isolation from the host society causes economic and social disadvantages, they blame the host society for not being tolerant/open enough, and cast it as a historical continuation of the Crusades, which they cast as wars of Muslim oppression (conveniently forgetting the centuries of Muslim conquests that preceded the Crusades).

The Charlie Hebdo kind of crap will continue to go on until everyone is willing to call a spade a spade, and recognize that the jihadis have declared war against all of us, that their motivations are based on a dysfunctional religion, that they do not fear death, and they will not stop until they are all killed, or we all bend knee to Allah.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2015, 10:48:15 pm »

Spot on, Jonathan!

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2015, 11:17:06 pm »

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