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Author Topic: Je suis Charlie  (Read 32184 times)

graeme

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2015, 07:50:37 am »

Something I remember from the furore over Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' during the 1980's.

On a TV news programme a British Muslim was asked why Muslims were so deeply offended by insults to Mohamed. His reply was that it was like having your wife, sister, mother or other much loved relative insulted and caused deep personal offence.

Graeme
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2015, 09:07:46 am »

Something I remember from the furore over Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' during the 1980's.

On a TV news programme a British Muslim was asked why Muslims were so deeply offended by insults to Mohamed. His reply was that it was like having your wife, sister, mother or other much loved relative insulted and caused deep personal offence.

It also has a lot to do with denial, closed minds that shut down, not willing to evolve. It is behavior that is taught, people are not that way by nature.

I'm offended, I won't listen

and a more complete version of the lecture events.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 09:19:17 am by BartvanderWolf »
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

stamper

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2015, 09:09:17 am »

Unfortunately The French cartoonists knew this and chose to ignore it.....with disastrous consequences. :(

Something I remember from the furore over Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' during the 1980's.

On a TV news programme a British Muslim was asked why Muslims were so deeply offended by insults to Mohamed. His reply was that it was like having your wife, sister, mother or other much loved relative insulted and caused deep personal offence.

Graeme

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2015, 09:26:21 am »

Unfortunately The French cartoonists knew this and chose to ignore it.....with disastrous consequences. :(


Yes, if we could all just live our lives assiduously NOT OFFENDING anyone ever, the world would be a peaceable nirvana......not.

You left litter in front of my house, so I'll burn yours down. You called my dog ugly, so I'll poison yours. You said my Mama was fat, so I'll rape and then kill yours. 

The revenge-seeking these maniacs pursue is often not even as - dare I say it - logical as my examples: Its far worse. Its more like "You've offended my Sunni/Shia sensibilities by disavowing some obscure doctrinal detail in your Shia/Sunni sermon or treatise, therefore I'll blow up 20 completely unrelated Shia/Sunni women...and myself while I'm at it....in the vegetable market."
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stamper

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2015, 09:39:31 am »

There is a difference between intentionally offending somebody/something and unintentionally offending somebody/something. The French cartoonists were in the first category. They done it deliberately as a living over a long time and ignored a bombing. As I stated earlier in the thread what happened to them was 100% wrong and I don't in anyway support their killers. However surely at sometime they must have realised their lives were in danger? Was it worth their lives to make a living from upsetting them? I think their relatives will be asking the same question. Yesterday's demonstration was a grand show of defiance but something will have to change to so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again. A brutal crackdown is definitely NOT the answer. :'(

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2015, 09:42:03 am »

do we have any genuine muslims here in this thread ?
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stamper

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2015, 09:44:36 am »

What is a "genuine" muslim?

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2015, 10:17:26 am »

There is a difference between intentionally offending somebody/something and unintentionally offending somebody/something. The French cartoonists were in the first category. They done it deliberately as a living over a long time and ignored a bombing. As I stated earlier in the thread what happened to them was 100% wrong and I don't in anyway support their killers. However surely at sometime they must have realised their lives were in danger? Was it worth their lives to make a living from upsetting them? I think their relatives will be asking the same question. Yesterday's demonstration was a grand show of defiance but something will have to change to so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again. A brutal crackdown is definitely NOT the answer. :'(

I understand what you’re saying, Stamper. But recent history has proven that in some parts of the world, just BEING a non-Muslim (e.g., Christian, Jew) or just being born the wrong sort of Muslim is offensive enough to spur certain people into depraved ‘revenge’. How does a Christian or Jew (or an ‘improper’ Muslim) in Iraq or Syria (or Nigeria) avoid offending the most radical elements? Seems like convert, die or flee might be the only options, and lately, even converting is not foolproof.
 
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NancyP

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2015, 10:23:22 am »

A "genuine" Muslim can be defined as anyone who has made the profession of faith : “there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”. Within that very large category there is infinite variety, just as there is among Christians. Most arguments concerning whether a person is a genuine member of the faith occurs among people of different sects of that faith. Outsiders don't have a personal stake in claiming a narrow definition (sect, legal system, or set of behaviors) of other peoples' faith.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2015, 10:31:48 am »

What is a "genuine" muslim?

somebody who is not pretending to be one for the sake of the argument in this topic...
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2015, 10:38:21 am »

How does a Christian or Jew (or an ‘improper’ Muslim) in Iraq or Syria (or Nigeria) avoid offending the most radical elements?
by rolling back in time before USA decided that they know better how Iraq or Syria shall be governed...
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2015, 10:40:01 am »

Perhaps we (and especially the media) should stop calling these people terrorists and begin calling them what they really are: cowards.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2015, 10:54:30 am »

.... A brutal crackdown is definitely NOT the answer. :'(

But it is definitely a good start.

On the other hand, self-censoring in fear of life is definitely NOT the answer for any civilized society. The cartoonists knew that. There are many examples in human history where people sacrificed their life for a greater cause and a better world. Yes, their families were not pleased. But the humanity is greateful.

RSL

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2015, 10:57:32 am »

I can't help laughing at what's going on because of Charlie Hebdo.

There was the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. According to the media it was a "wakeup call."

There were the 1983 embassy bombings in Kuwait. Another "wakeup call."

Then there was the 1993 World Trade Center bombing in New York. According to the media, a "wakeup call."

There was the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing. A "wakeup call."

In 2000 we saw the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen. A "wakeup call."

Then there was the 2001 attack that brought down the World Trade Center and clobbered the Pentagon, killing roughly 3000 people. According to the New York Times and other similar rags, a "wakeup call."

In 2009 we saw the Fort Hood massacre by a guy yelling "Allahu Akbar." According to Obama and company this was "workplace violence." Had nothing at all to do with the man's religion. Another wakeup call, but muffled by the administration.

Then there was the 2012 Benghazi attack on the U.S. Consulate. According to Obama, Clinton, and company, brought on by a movie shown on the U.S. West coast. Another wakeup call denied by the administration.

2013 brought the Boston Marathon bombings. Another "wakeup call."

2015 begins with the Charlie Hebdo murders. According to the NYT and similar media a "wakeup call."

I've left out dozens of minor attacks and major attacks -- like Mumbai in 2008 -- outside the U.S. We keep getting these "wakeup calls," but after tossing and turning for a few days we hit the snooze button. When the hell are we going to get out of bed and fight back?
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kers

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2015, 11:03:11 am »

Meanwhile in the front row of the demonstration in Paris a bunch of 'worldleaders' that have a problem with free press themselves...

source
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7G8iXkCQAExCv_.jpg:large
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2015, 11:48:16 am »

Meanwhile in the front row of the demonstration in Paris a bunch of 'worldleaders' that have a problem with free press themselves...

I'm bald, a little bit jowly, and I wear glasses. These cartoons offend me.  ;D
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2015, 12:07:19 pm »

Perhaps we (and especially the media) should stop calling these people terrorists and begin calling them what they really are: cowards.

Peter, is that really wise?  It seems to make as much sense as the media and politicians in the UK constantly referring to all our 'brave' soldiers as 'Heroes'.  It demeans the words when they are then used in the correct place.

I can think of all sorts of insults I could make at these murderers, but anyone who picks up an assault rifle, takes it into the centre of a city and attempts to gun down people including armed police while knowing full well they will almost certainly be caught and killed is not what I consider cowardly.  I understand your sentiment but they are dead and calling them cowards is not going to upset or insult them now.  Can you imagine the courage it would take to carry out such an act?  Disgusting, misguided and heinous as it was.

Jim
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2015, 12:10:28 pm »

However surely at sometime they must have realised their lives were in danger? Was it worth their lives to make a living from upsetting them? I think their relatives will be asking the same question. Yesterday's demonstration was a grand show of defiance but something will have to change to so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again. A brutal crackdown is definitely NOT the answer. :'(

Stamper I remember a quote a few days ago in the press.  After the fire-bombing a couple of years ago one of the cartoonists had said in respect of the death threats that he "Would rather die on my feet than live on my knees".  I'm sure he did not want to die but was obviously only too aware of the risks.

Jim
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Gulag

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2015, 12:10:43 pm »

"This Europe, which never stopped talking of man, which never stopped proclaiming its sole concern was man, we now know the price of suffering humanity has paid for every one of its spiritual victories.

When I look for man in European lifestyles and technology I see a constant denial of man, an avalanche of murders.

Man’s condition, his projects and collaboration with others on tasks that strengthen man’s totality, are new issues which require genuine inspiration.

The whole of European thought developed in places that were increasingly arid and increasingly inaccessible. Consequently, it was natural that the chances of encountering man became less and less frequent.

Two centuries ago, a former European colony decided to catch up with Europe. It succeeded so well that the United States of America became a monster, in which the taints, the sickness and the inhumanity of Europe have grown to appalling dimensions.

Let us reexamine the question of man…It is the very basic question of not dragging man in directions which mutilate him, of not imposing on his brain tempos that rapidly obliterate and unhinge it. The notion of catching up must not be used as a pretext to brutalize man, to tear him from himself and his inner consciousness, to break him, to kill him."


— Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth
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Justinr

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2015, 12:13:39 pm »

It also has a lot to do with denial, closed minds that shut down, not willing to evolve. It is behavior that is taught, people are not that way by nature.

I'm offended, I won't listen

and a more complete version of the lecture events.

Cheers,
Bart

Y'know, for a moment there I thought you were talking about folk who teach their children that Adam and Eve had fun with the dinosaurs or good old boys who have an affection for white robes and pointy hats.
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