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Author Topic: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor  (Read 13992 times)

CptZar

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Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« on: January 01, 2015, 03:05:11 am »

I found this at Canonrumors:

>>Northlight has been told that the high resolution camera coming from Canon will be based on the 4.2 micron pixel design of the Canon EOS 7D Mark II

What does that mean? The new sensors will, beside higher resolution,  in terms of DR behave like the ones used for the 7DMKII?

« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 09:52:49 am by CptZar »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 03:33:22 am »

I found this at Canonrumors:

>>Northlight has been told that the high resolution camera coming from Canon will be based on the 4.2 micron pixel design of the Canon EOS 7D Mark II

What does that mean? The new sensors will, beside higher resolution,  in terms of DR behave like the one used im the 7DMKII?

That would be surprising and disapointing. I can't believe a second that this would be the case.

This would mean that Canon has completely misunderstood the reason why many of their customers have bought a7r or gone the D8x0 route.

The main purpose of such a body would be to reach new heights of image quality, resolution is only a small part of the equation.

So my bet is that Canon rumors got their info wrong again.

Cheers,
Bernard

DeanChriss

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 08:52:20 am »

Years ago the same rumors site said the high resolution Canon would be introduced in 2012, and at every major show since. They also said the 7D-II would be introduced at Photokina 2012. There are always "leaked" technical details that make the rumors seem viable. Maybe Canon seeds these rumors or maybe they're started by techno-geek fantasies, but they seem to have no basis in reality until, after being reported for a few years, Canon introduces some camera that coincidentally does some of what was reported. The rumors sites always remind us that these are only rumors, but whenever there's a new one the Internet starts buzzing. Based on the track record it's crazy to put faith in this stuff.

http://www.canonwatch.com/rumor-are-these-the-eos-3dx-specs-more-supposed-details-leaked-a-mini-1dx/
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 09:42:53 am »

I have reasons to believe that this rumor is overall for real, but I just cannot believe the "pixel quality" part.

Cheers,
Bernard

DeanChriss

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2015, 10:29:54 am »

I have reasons to believe that this rumor is overall for real, but I just cannot believe the "pixel quality" part.

Cheers,
Bernard


It may well be true, as most eventually are within a few years, but I won't be astonished if it's once again false. With no inside information my reason for thinking it might be true is because the rumors usually start reporting things about two years before a few of them actually happen, and this one is way past due.  ;) If it is, I just hope the time between announcement and availability is nothing like the 18 months we had for the 200-400 F/4 zoom.  

I'm thinking about the super-high resolution 1D-whatever that, just a couple days after it was rumored to be a sure thing for Photokina 2014, morphed into a 7D2. That was two years after it was rumored that the 7D2 would appear at Photokina 2012, so I have some very sound logic behind this! But this high res rumor has thwarted the logic. Just days after the rumor creators realized the their crystal ball had malfunctioned regarding the Photokina 2014 high resolution camera introduction, they consulted it again and reported the camera would appear in New York in October, but it didn't. I think by now they've probably had enough time to repair the crystal ball and also to consult the stars so this is a definite maybe!  

Of course I'm mostly kidding and wouldn't base any decision on these rumors, but perhaps it'll be an interesting year.

Happy New Year to all.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 10:31:36 am by DeanChriss »
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dwswager

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 11:35:29 am »

I found this at Canonrumors:

>>Northlight has been told that the high resolution camera coming from Canon will be based on the 4.2 micron pixel design of the Canon EOS 7D Mark II

What does that mean? The new sensors will, beside higher resolution,  in terms of DR behave like the ones used for the 7DMKII?

I would find that disappointing.  Obviously, the higher resolution would be nice, but even the 3.9 micron pixel density, 24MP DX (1.5x) sensor in the $500 D5200 has better DR under 1600 ISO and better high ISO performance than the 7DmkII.

And while I don't find the extra 12MP (and associated files size) overhead of the D810 a big deal and it still causes people to opt for the D750 instead.  At 50MP there would be a market, but it would be much smaller than the D800/D800e turned out to be.   Not sure I would opt for a 50MP camera as a general use camera as I did the D810.
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scooby70

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2015, 03:01:33 pm »

The rumors sites always remind us that these are only rumors, but whenever there's a new one the Internet starts buzzing. Based on the track record it's crazy to put faith in this stuff.

I don't know about the site being discussed here as I have only a passing interest in Canon since selling up but I do read the Sony and MFT rumour sites, just for fun, and they do seem to have a pretty good record for accuracy and the closer to product launch date we get often the accuracy increases. They do get things wrong but I wouldn't write them all off every time as sometimes they undoubtedly get it right and not just with hindsight.

I can't see myself being interested in a very high MP count camera but I'm sure many will be.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re:
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2015, 08:04:00 pm »

Increasing pixel count automatically increases dynamic range. Not at a pixel level, but on the overall image which is what really matters. Once scaled to the final output size, the more Mpx in the source the higher SNR, and hence DR.

So even if they use the same photosites on the 7D II's sensor the new camera will have more dynamic range.

Regards

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re:
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 07:14:04 am »

Increasing pixel count automatically increases dynamic range. Not at a pixel level, but on the overall image which is what really matters. Once scaled to the final output size, the more Mpx in the source the higher SNR, and hence DR.

Indeed. It can be demonstrated that images, which have a Poisson/Gaussian type of noise spectrum, reduce noise perfectly in line with downsampling. So read-noise and other (e.g. shot) noise reduces with downsampling, and the signal (if remaining resolution allows) stays the same, hence Dynamic range increases. That means that for anything smaller than full size output, Megapixel count is beneficial, even if it doesn't have higher dynamic range at the sensel level.

Quote
So even if they use the same photosites on the 7D II's sensor the new camera will have more dynamic range.

Yes, although it would be much better if the dynamic range was actually improved at the same time, because it is possible (as shown by Sony's sensors).

Cheers,
Bart
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 08:41:26 am »

Yes, dynamic range will increase but don't get too excited, since the increase is minimal.

According to http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Detailed-computation-of-DxOMark-Sensor-normalization, the formula that relates DR and pixel count is:

DR(new) = DR + Log2 (Square root(N / N (new)))

Where
DR: Original DR
N: Original Megapixel count

DR(new): resulting DR
N (new): Downsampled Megapixel count.

Lets compare the values from the Nikon D810 to those of the Canon 7D MkII using the values from DXO Mark. (The value for DR to be used is the "screen" value, which correspond to the pixel values).
 
D810
DR (screen)=13.67

7D MKII
DR (screen)=11.11

Let's suppose that Canon produces a FF 50 Mpixel camera with the same quality as the 7D MK II, The DR (screen) will then be = 11.11

Now we apply the formula to downsample those 50 Mpixel camera to the D810

DR (new) = 11.11 + Log2 (Sqrt(50/36))
DR (new) = 11.11 + 0.237
DR (new) = 11.34

Results:
D810= DR 13.67 Stops
Rumored 50 Mpx camera downsampled to 36 Mpx = DR 11.34 stops

So, even with the increased DR due to the larger pixel count, the D810 will still have more than 2 stops of additional DR.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 08:57:00 am »

Results:
D810= DR 13.67 Stops
Rumored 50 Mpx camera downsampled to 36 Mpx = DR 11.34 stops

So, even with the increased DR due to the larger pixel count, the D810 will still have more than 2 stops of additional DR.

Hi Frank,

That's correct. Of course, that's the same dynamic range as the (21 MP) EOS 1D Mark III which still produces great images, but at somewhat smaller output. So an increase of output-size potential is still progress, although I'd prefer both Megapixels and Dynamic range. With most output sizes requiring less than 36 MP, the noise characteristics would still offer an improvement (in noise/DR and deconvolution sharpening capabilities).

Cheers,
Bart
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Iluvmycam

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 09:00:34 am »

While they make ubber mp sensors they should also make a good film sensor that will give you real film like results with pixels that look like grain and clean blacks like film.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Biker_no._134_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/832px-Biker_no._134_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
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NancyP

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 10:35:50 am »

Canon Rumors site is for fun, not for serious predictions.
I sure hope that Canon is working out a high DR sensor.
If the Nikon D750 eats 5D3/upcoming 5D4 for lunch, maybe Canon will wake up.
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spidermike

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 11:49:37 am »

Parallel rumours are that such a camera would use a Sony sensor (not a Canon sensor) - and that would be promising given Sony's input to Nikon models.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2015, 03:37:51 pm »

that's the same dynamic range as the (21 MP) EOS 1D Mark III which still produces great images,

Hi Bart,

I agree, a competent photographer can produce great images with the Canons (as there is plenty of evidence) and even with less DR than that. In my experience the main benefit of an extended DR is the ability to recover shadows.

What I really like is when the relation between DR and ISO is linear, which allows to shoot in "ISO-less" mode

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 05:57:09 pm »

Parallel rumours are that such a camera would use a Sony sensor (not a Canon sensor) - and that would be promising given Sony's input to Nikon models.

I believe that this not correct. It will be a Canon sensor.

This is coming from credible sources, I wouldn't mention it otherwise.

On the DR topic, an additional is the possibility to under-expose on purpose some images to reduce the risk of blown highlights in very contrasty/changing light. I had one example yesterday (cannot post this image) where I had to under-expose 2 full stops and got an amazing, noise free ISO64 image in return that I had to brighten up selectively in C1 Pro 8. There is zero concern doing this with high DR bodies.

Cheers,
Bernars

dwswager

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 06:18:02 pm »

Saying you can take a great images with [Insert Camera Brand Here] is a non argument when discussing the relative merits of specific models or the absolute merit of a single camera, especially since it ignores the user and the artistic aspect of image making.

What is missing in all these discussions is an understanding of Marginal Value.  The D810 is 'marginally' better than other DSLRs.  That is because not all photo opportunities, for example, require 14.7 EV of dynamic range and not output formats require 36MPs.  The 5DmkIII for example has 22MP, not 0MP.  So all outputs that only require 22MP are within it's performance capabilities to the exact same extent as the D810.   The D810 is only marginally better!  And it only matters when the situation requires that marginal increase in performance AND the photographer knows how to utilize it!

What higher performance levels provide is the potential to take images lesser performance cameras do not provide.  It also opens additional options and provides more forgiveness.  Interestingly, better photographers gain most from the additional options while lesser photographers benefit most by getting some additional forgiveness.  As an example, on my wall is a small sunset image.  The mountains are for the most part in deep shadow or totally blocked up.  I personalty like the line of dark mountain peaks as it frames the colorful and interesting sky. That was not totally by choice, but was dictated by my decision to not blow the highlights.  A camera with higher dynamic range than the D70 that was used would have allowed detail to be retained in those shadows.  It opens up the option to do that in the final print if one would choose.  Or I could have ended with the same basic image even with a exposure miss (forgiveness) within the DR of the camera.
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Tony Jay

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 07:02:59 pm »

Shooting, now, with both the Sony A7r and the Canon 5D mark III, I do accept the marginal value argument however I will say that for the specific application of static (on the tripod) landscape/cityscape imaging that the A7r substantially outperforms the 5D mark III.

Although the resolution increase is nice the real clincher for me is massive improvement in usable dynamic range. Being able to shoot single images and capture the entire dynamic range of the scene without resorting to exposure bracketing to later merge to HDR in situations where the light is changing rapidly such as around sunset or after (my favourite time to shoot) is a major advantage, especially if one is also planning a several shot panorama as well.

The additional advantage of being able to manipulate tone in post without worrying about noise or the muddy colours so characteristic of the 5D mark III when lifting the shadows means that none of that fine detail captured by the A7r is wasted in crushing the noise.

So, despite the fact that the performance of the A7r is incremental compared to the 5D mark III the A7r has actually changed the way that I can shoot in the sense that the process is so much simpler and the result is so much better.

So, onto the presumed 50MP sensor from Canon. Hopefully it does eventuate and hopefully it does have 14 stop+ dynamic range. I don't think that I will buy it unless it has that dynamic range that I want resolution notwithstanding.

Tony Jay
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dwswager

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Re: Canon's New 50 MP Sensor
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 04:27:53 pm »

Shooting, now, with both the Sony A7r and the Canon 5D mark III, I do accept the marginal value argument however I will say that for the specific application of static (on the tripod) landscape/cityscape imaging that the A7r substantially outperforms the 5D mark III.

Although the resolution increase is nice the real clincher for me is massive improvement in usable dynamic range. Being able to shoot single images and capture the entire dynamic range of the scene without resorting to exposure bracketing to later merge to HDR in situations where the light is changing rapidly such as around sunset or after (my favourite time to shoot) is a major advantage, especially if one is also planning a several shot panorama as well.

Tony Jay

I own a D810 myself for that reason.  But again, the DR is great for Sunrise/Sunset and Nightscape images.  But that is a small subset of all photo opportunities.  If for example you are shooting studio portraits, it doesn't play at all!  And for general landscape images even, the 11 or so EV of DR the 5DmkIII gives you is enough.  Of course, the fact that it is priced way over it's capabilities would deter me.
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BJL

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when "under-exposure" means correct exposure
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 05:41:34 pm »

On the DR topic, an additional is the possibility to under-expose on purpose some images to reduce the risk of blown highlights in very contrasty/changing light. I had one example yesterday (cannot post this image) where I had to under-expose 2 full stops ...
I would say that if the exposure is what is needed to avoid blown highlights, it is not "under-exposure", it is just correct exposure! (Correcting for the default exposure metering of most digital cameras, which assumes no more than about three stops between the average illumination and the peak illumination in the scene.)

There is still this strange idea that digital cameras have "less highlight dynamic range than film" even though most system cameras now have far more dynamic range than (color) film, due simply to default exposure metering that leaves only about three stops between the metered average level and the clipping level, even when the sensor then has nine or more usable stops below the metered average level. (Yes, I am happy to  have a camera whose default metering and signal processing positions metered mid-tones about four or more stops below the maximum raw level; I can adjust my exposure up ["over-expose"!?] when it is more important to reducing noise in deep shadow regions at base ISO speed than to avoid blown highlights -- which is rare for me!)


Back to the rumor!  It could very well be a correct guess, but tracking back the sources quoted, it seem no more than that: an anonymous tipster's guess that Canon will use its most recently revealed pixel design (as in the 7DII) in its next 36x24mm sensor.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:44:04 pm by BJL »
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