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Author Topic: canon ?  (Read 44391 times)

BJBauer

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canon ?
« on: December 16, 2014, 10:23:38 pm »

I was once an avid follower of this site but have been in the 3rd world for several years and dropped out. Michael was once an avid Canon user. From what I gather not so much now. Why? Has the brand fallen that far behind?
dr b
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michael

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 08:06:36 am »

I a word - yes.

Actually it isn't the Canon has fallen behind as much as it is that everyone else has moved foreword. There have been huge strides in sensor technology these past few years, but not by Canon. The compact (mirrorless) segment is steamrolling ahead and embracing an ever increasing share of the market, while DSLR's are shrinking (in marketshare, not physical size).

Canon choose a few years ago to focus on the video aspect of their camera, and to introduce a number of DSLR-like dedicated cameras. Now, a few years later everyone else has caught up, and the C series cameras are pretty much overpriced, underfeatured and forgotten.

Canon will rise again, to be sure. But they do strike me as being a bit like General Motors was a decade ago; still a market leader, but fat, complacent and unresponsive to their customer's changing needs. And we all know what happened to GM.

Michael
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 10:48:59 am »

To be fair though Canon still has an excellent range of cameras.  I have moved heavily into mirror-less in recent years, first with Panasonic and now with Olympus.  They are great small cameras, and I think Canon will need to offer a mirror-less camera soon - I would have loved one like the 5D where I could shoot video through the viewfinder.  But for stills they have some great cameras.

Jim
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Paul2660

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 11:26:18 am »

Yes Canon does, but none of them have the same range of DR at base iso to mid range iso that the Sony chips have, it's very simple to test.  I really don't care about iso 12000 and up as Canon may be better, but it's still not very useable without a ton of work. 

There were two reviews that caught my eye when the Nikon 800 first came out, Michael's review with the bookcase shot and the Fred Miranda review with the awning where Fred showed how much detail there was in the Nikon file in the shadows. 

That was what I wanted, I don't need 10fps, or great iso 51K, just a good single image taken in the iso 64 to 200 range, as that pretty much covers my needs.  Take any Canon (the 6D is an exception) and expose it in a shot where you have bright light and deep shadows, expose for the highlight, and try to pull up your shadows, you will see the red blue banding that Canon has had since the 1ds MKIII.  You need multiple exposures to get there with a Canon.  NOTE, the 6D is much better here as the noise will not have the banding, but instead looks like film grain.  But there is still noise. 

Everyone looks for what they need, I saw it in Nikon and made the switch.  Canon has something coming, who knows when, and what.  Multiple layer chips like Foveon have not shown good results much past base iso, so if that's it then it's still a limited camera.  If it's standard CMOS, I can't see it being much better than what Sony and Nikon already have in DR.  The reality of more DR is becoming smaller and smaller tweaks from what I have seen.

Life is short, and I didn't like selling a bunch of gear that I had used successfully for 14 years or more, but I have had great results since early 2012 with Nikon and only miss the Canon TS-E 17 and 24 as Nikon can't begin to reach the quality of these lenses with their lineup. 

And the world to me looks much better in full frame instead of 1.6 cropped, so even though the 7D MKII is a good improvement, it's focal range is very limiting for landscape work (at least what I shoot).  And many still seem to forget that the D800 family have a great 1.5 crop that still gets close to 16MP of resolution. 

And to speak of resolution, one thing is for sure, I am done in that chase.  The only thing I can think of that really needs more than 36MP is a huge print, either on paper or canvas, and that is very rare sale for me these days.  The world lives on Facebook and Instagram and the instant gratification of posting what you just did for the world to see.  No image created for the web will ever benefit from more resolution unless the world overnight switched to 4K or higher displays which isn't going to happen for a while yet.

For sure it's only one opinion, but in the long run, looking back, if Canon had come out with a 20MP chip that had the same DR as the Sony's I would have been more than happy to stay in their camp. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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NancyP

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 11:50:58 am »

The trouble with Canon is that their lens quality outstrips their current camera sensor quality, aggravating Canonistas that own good lenses. I have thought about renting a Sony A7r and Metabones adapter just to see what the Sony files look like with my lenses. I am an amateur, though, and don't have to compete with anyone other than myself, so I can live with a "pretty good" sensor while I pay attention to learning and shooting.
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Paul2660

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 12:00:54 pm »

The Sony A7 and A7r were one of the best things that happened for a Canon shooter, as you can use all your lenses, with the metabones adaper and still have IS and AF.  The latest adapter is much better on AF accuracy.  Sadly with Nikon it becomes all manual.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Hulyss

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 12:03:51 pm »


Canon will rise again, to be sure. But they do strike me as being a bit like General Motors was a decade ago; still a market leader, but fat, complacent and unresponsive to their customer's changing needs. And we all know what happened to GM.

Michael


Yes and yes. They will rise again but they are a bit slow to adapt. We just have to wait and see. Meanwhile, the 5DMkIII and 1Dx are extremely good cameras for reportage, fashion and landscapes but not at the level of a Nikon D810.

We just have to wait and see.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 12:19:28 pm »

... NOTE, the 6D is much better here as the noise will not have the banding, but instead looks like film grain....

I just posted some samples, taken at ISO 3200 and 16,000 (!) on another thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94724.msg784931#msg784931

dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2014, 03:05:58 pm »

I was once an avid follower of this site but have been in the 3rd world for several years and dropped out. Michael was once an avid Canon user. From what I gather not so much now. Why? Has the brand fallen that far behind?
dr b

Canon has chosen to focus on other things than Image Quality from the sensor subsystem.  Canon makes their own sensors and has been unwilling go outside for better ones. If you compare their latest camera 7DmkII to the best Nikon offers in APS-C sensor, the D7100,  The 7DmkII has tremendously more functionality (dual processor, more buffer, faster frame rate, 65 AF sensors all cross type, etc.), but inferior image quality capability (at least out to ISO 1600 or so where the D7100 comes down to the 7DmkII) in a package that is currently $800 more expensive.  I will say Nikon is lacking in that they don't have a more functional APS-C body than the D7100.

And the D810...just has no competition from Canon.  As an Amateur (that does some work for money), I talked my wife into a D810 because it is almost the perfect General Purpose DSLR that also has some longevity in it.  Unlike my first 3 DSLRs, I expect to have it for some time to come.  My sales pitch to the SuperWife was "It might not be the last camera I buy, but it's the 1st one I wouldn't mind getting stuck with!"

Last I looked, Nikon cut the 17% DSLR market share lead Canon had to under 7% in 2103.  I suspect the all out pricing fit Nikon is having like selling the $1200 D7100 at $900 and dropping the D810 Price $300 is about trying to get the market share lead in 2014. 
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David Anderson

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 05:34:32 pm »

I suspect Canon will have an answer for the D810 any time now and then he whole Canon vs. Nikon debate will turn into the Canon vs. Nikon vs Sony debate.. ;)
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eronald

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 07:12:44 pm »

Nobody knows what is going on at Canon, or at least nobody who is talking :)
Maybe the company will renew itself, just as it did with the FD to EF mount change.

Actually, the products which they have are pretty usable, they are just priced strangely and segmented strangely.
A good example is the 1DC which is the same as a 1Dx, but priced double because the 4K video firmware is unlocked.
When a company starts doing that sort of thing, it's a sign they're in trouble. 
Or the C500 where the customer pays a fortune for Raw video, so all the enthusiasts are using Magic Lantern to shoot raw.
More people seem to be using the 5D3 for video than there are customers using the video models ...

I think there is some sort of internal war between divisions going on, with department heads insisting on their fiefdoms being protected from incursions by other product lines.

There is nothing wrong with the still photography side that a decent 50MP sensor wouldn't fix in one minute. Canon still has some of the best glass out there for pros, including their telephotos. Obviously, Canon have sensor options; why they won't pull the trigger on one of them is anybody's guess.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:20:48 pm by eronald »
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dwswager

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2014, 08:29:20 pm »

I suspect Canon will have an answer for the D810 any time now and then he whole Canon vs. Nikon debate will turn into the Canon vs. Nikon vs Sony debate.. ;)


ROTFLMAO.  Not that Canon can't or won't reverse the current trend as they did before.  But predicting any day now to a guy that is still waiting for the Nikon D400 makes me laugh.  If it was going to be any day, would the 7DmkII not have had a better sensor instead of similar to the 5 year old 7D with a little better gain strategy?
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Tony Jay

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2014, 03:53:10 am »

Nobody knows what is going on at Canon, or at least nobody who is talking :)
Maybe the company will renew itself, just as it did with the FD to EF mount change.

Actually, the products which they have are pretty usable, they are just priced strangely and segmented strangely.
A good example is the 1DC which is the same as a 1Dx, but priced double because the 4K video firmware is unlocked.
When a company starts doing that sort of thing, it's a sign they're in trouble. 
Or the C500 where the customer pays a fortune for Raw video, so all the enthusiasts are using Magic Lantern to shoot raw.
More people seem to be using the 5D3 for video than there are customers using the video models ...

I think there is some sort of internal war between divisions going on, with department heads insisting on their fiefdoms being protected from incursions by other product lines.

There is nothing wrong with the still photography side that a decent 50MP sensor wouldn't fix in one minute. Canon still has some of the best glass out there for pros, including their telephotos. Obviously, Canon have sensor options; why they won't pull the trigger on one of them is anybody's guess.

Edmund
Given that no one knows the exact scenario with Canon (or anyone that would say who really did know) this is a very sensible synopsis IMHO.

Tony Jay
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Paul2660

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 08:15:25 am »

One thing is for sure, Magic Lantern really up shows just how much potential that Canon choose to lock up in cameras like the 6D and 5D-MKIII. For a Canon shooter its a great asset.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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shadowblade

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 08:39:23 am »

One thing is for sure, Magic Lantern really up shows just how much potential that Canon choose to lock up in cameras like the 6D and 5D-MKIII. For a Canon shooter its a great asset.

Paul

You lose a lot of resolution in gaining more DR, though.

I wonder how much DR you could get if you applied similar techniques to a D810.
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Paul2660

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 11:48:32 am »

With Magic Lantern on a 6D What I found most impressive was:

raw video
dual iso, (which has gotten much better with time)
True intervalometer built in, you can actually time exposures longer than 30", thus no need for an internal intervalometer
Focus peaking

Nice additional features along with everything else they give a Canon user.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 01:10:16 pm »

Hi,

My take is that Canon is just fine for all photographers except those who are shooting a low ISOs, on tripod, striving for maximum image quality.

For those photographers, Canon cameras still work fine, but competition will probably make a better work.

Best regards
Erik

I was once an avid follower of this site but have been in the 3rd world for several years and dropped out. Michael was once an avid Canon user. From what I gather not so much now. Why? Has the brand fallen that far behind?
dr b
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Some Guy

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2014, 08:34:16 pm »

If Canon does come up with a 48-50MP FX camera body in 2015, no doubt Nikon/Sony have something better up their sleeve and will show up in short order.

Since Nikon builds microscopes and also the steppers for making these sensors, Nikon probably struck up a backroom deal to have Sony use the Nikon steppers and had first run with the 36MP sensors for a short time, with Sony allowed to use them later.

Canon seemed to miss that microscope era where Nikon excelled and got them into really fine manufacturing control work, so they may do something else like a stacked sensor to hit 50MP, ala Sigma.  Nikon may do it as an array again, just finer.  Canon could go the way of Leica S2 with a larger sensor too and call it 50MP if they cannot get to the finer resolution of Nikon/Sony FX size.

Sort of fun to watch though...

SG
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DeanChriss

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Re: canon ?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 05:29:15 am »

Hi,
My take is that Canon is just fine for all photographers except those who are shooting a low ISOs, on tripod, striving for maximum image quality.
For those photographers, Canon cameras still work fine, but competition will probably make a better work.
Best regards
Erik

While Canon has not come up with a sensor comparable to the D8XX, they haven't exactly been standing still in other areas. AFAIK the 1DX is the only camera dedicating an entire processor (the same one that runs everything in a 5D3) to AF, and is able to lock onto fast moving subjects based on their shape, color, and distance to track them wherever they go in the entire AF area. Over the last few weeks I've seen this repeatedly maintain AF lock on landing birds even when they fly behind tall grass, provided you can still see them through the grass. I also found that a one second burst at 12 FPS when a bird is where you want it relative to the light and background produces at least one tack sharp photo with the wing position you want nearly every time, with good IQ through ISO 6400. I've done this with slower cameras with some good results, but it's much more a trial and error proposition than something you can do almost at will. This camera also has the most customizable AF system I've seen. Similarly, there's another processor dedicated to the metering system, sensing both color and brightness, making it easier to get a good exposure when there's no time to be fussing with adjustments.

As a somewhat unrelated aside, it's not well known that Canon cameras using smaller and lower voltage battery packs than those in Canon's 1-series (7.2 volts vs. 11.1 volts) can not move the heavier mechanisms in large lenses like the 400mm F/2.8 through 800mm F/5.6 at their maximum AF speed. I assume the same is true in the Nikon line, as the D4 uses a large 10.1 volt battery while the D8XX uses a smaller 7 volt battery.

My point here is that you'll always be more successful using the best tool for the job at hand. IMO, for landscapes and slower, easier to track subjects the D8XX is undoubtedly the best small format camera going. For very fast moving subjects at high ISOs there are better tools. Some of those are made by Nikon (D4/D4S), but it's arguable that the best of those is still Canon. If you can't capture a useable photo (focus, exposure) in the first place, more subtle differences in IQ become irrelevant.

Happy Holidays,
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