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Author Topic: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?  (Read 25376 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2015, 06:35:22 pm »

... lads who'd had spoken nothing but Welsh at home...

Were they home-schooled? If not, they had 12 years of schooling to learn proper English. Otherwise, I am sure you are familiar with the Tower of Babel concept.

Justinr

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2015, 07:02:33 pm »

Were they home-schooled? If not, they had 12 years of schooling to learn proper English. Otherwise, I am sure you are familiar with the Tower of Babel concept.

This may help explain things -

In Welsh-medium secondary schools, Welsh is taught as a subject and most, if not all, other subjects are taught through the medium of Welsh,

http://gov.wales/topics/educationandskills/allsectorpolicies/welshmededuca/prim-and-sec-schools/?lang=en

I'm not sure if that was the situation 30+ years ago but there were those who did struggle with English, thankfully many of the lecturers were Welsh themselves.

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jjj

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2015, 07:25:54 pm »

It wasn't an irregular occurrence when I was at college well over 30 years ago, but that was lads who'd had spoken nothing but Welsh at home,  are they as deserving of scorn even though they are as British as you and I?
I'm pretty sure that Rob is referring to native English speakers with poor English. Native Welsh speakers taught only in Welsh are few and far between even in Wales - which is where I am from.
My best mate who is head of a University Department has commented many times on declining standards of English with students. He also mentioned that the model degree used to be a 2.2 with 2.1 being reserved for the better students and Firsts just for exceptional graduates. 2.1s are now the modal degree and Firsts are commonplace. This despite the doors being opened to far more students than there used to be. Unis used to take the top 3-4% of pupils now they are try to get 20-25% of folk to go to Uni [and charge them for the privilege]. To hide this dumbing down, A levels are much easier than they used to be with a similar marked increase in high grades.
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Justinr

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2015, 03:06:58 am »

I'm pretty sure that Rob is referring to native English speakers with poor English. Native Welsh speakers taught only in Welsh are few and far between even in Wales - which is where I am from.
My best mate who is head of a University Department has commented many times on declining standards of English with students. He also mentioned that the model degree used to be a 2.2 with 2.1 being reserved for the better students and Firsts just for exceptional graduates. 2.1s are now the modal degree and Firsts are commonplace. This despite the doors being opened to far more students than there used to be. Unis used to take the top 3-4% of pupils now they are try to get 20-25% of folk to go to Uni [and charge them for the privilege]. To hide this dumbing down, A levels are much easier than they used to be with a similar marked increase in high grades.

I think we are all aware of that but can't quite put our finger on the proof. The cynic in me suggests that shoveling school leavers off to university keeps them off at the dole at their own expense which is what has been driving admission grades down as much as anything. The extra staff needed to teach them also keeps the unemployment numbers down and since the money is being borrowed from the banks by the individuals to do a lot of this then it's a win win situation for the exchequer.

Having said all that it's good to see more people receiving a more fulsome education, just so long it is balanced and they are taught to question and assess rather than simply told what to think.

I don't know which part of Wales you are from but I went to agricultural college at Aberystwyth, I can assure you that Welsh was the first language for many of my colleagues.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 03:51:09 am by Justinr »
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2015, 07:10:11 am »

.... all I have to do is mind my own business and not get nosy about other (non-S.O.) people's genitals.

If only more people had this attitude, the world would be just a little bit better.
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jjj

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2015, 10:36:27 am »

If only more people had this attitude, the world would be just a little bit better.
Absolutely.
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jjj

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2015, 10:57:54 am »

I think we are all aware of that but can't quite put our finger on the proof. The cynic in me suggests that shoveling school leavers off to university keeps them off at the dole at their own expense which is what has been driving admission grades down as much as anything. The extra staff needed to teach them also keeps the unemployment numbers down and since the money is being borrowed from the banks by the individuals to do a lot of this then it's a win win situation for the exchequer.

Having said all that it's good to see more people receiving a more fulsome education, just so long it is balanced and they are taught to question and assess rather than simply told what to think.
It's all a huge pointless con. Prospective students are being told that if you go to Uni you will get a better job and earn more money. Which was only true when the top few percent of people go to Uni, it used to be 3% ish and employers will pay more for the best qualified people. But if a large percentage of population is equally highly qualified, then there is little added benefit to having a Uni education.  Particularly if you also have tuition fees the government has now added to the cost of Uni. The number of high paying jobs doesn't increase in line with Uni admissions either.
Giving everyone high grades is also counterproductive as part of the the grades system is to differentiate people - which most people do not realise. Educate people so that they learn and can pass certainly, but still have gradation in the system so you can see who the best people are. It's foolish and basically lying by omission if you do not show that.
The Uni system worked because it was elitist, lowering the barriers to entry and the ease of getting a degree undermines the whole thing. Changing Polys to Universities was also a dumb move, Polytechs offered a different kind of education, one more geared to getting a sensible job rather than being purely academic. Which is far more important for the vast majority of those doing further education.

Quote
I don't know which part of Wales you are from but I went to agricultural college at Aberystwyth, I can assure you that Welsh was the first language for many of my colleagues.
The South. More populous, but far less Welsh spoken. An agricultural college also has a quite different catchment from Universities, so I'd expect more Welsh speakers there as farming country is where Welsh is more dominant.
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NancyP

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2015, 01:25:10 pm »

RobC said:
"Nancy,

Forgive me for messing up your paragraph into numbered points (thanks, looks better), it's just easier to answer them that way.

1. Some jobs simply require the applicant to have demonstrated a very exceptional quality of personality and achievement for the clear reason that those jobs themselves are demanding of those special abilities that the students have displayed. Degrees don't always/only reflect parrot ability. The job interview also takes cognizance of the other, additional things that the graduate has done in the pursuit of his/her degree, things outwith the strict requirements of the course, self-motivated interests in branches of the subject that (s)he has done on his/her own initiative. For example, a law graduate who has also excelled in inter-university debate; a medical student who has performed lots of voluntary work in various situations where it's applicable, such as first-aid at sporting events etc. People showing willingness beyond the formal, educational part of whatever they are involved with have that on their CV too... So in answer to the question, a good CV reveals the graduate's wider input and value.

(Most applicants don't get a job interview. Most businesses' HR departments  will have a hard requirement for completed college degree for many  positions. Considering my level of education (doctoral degree), I might be inclined to favor strict educational requirements for business positions, but my family history has made me somewhat skeptical. My father had some college, but never completed a degree. He had some manufacturing process management jobs and sales jobs, saved up, started his own business in the early 1960s. He had more business sense than a graduating class of M.B.A.s. If he had applied in the current climate, his application would have been rejected out of hand. Remember, HR types are using Monster and other online services to pre-screen applicants, and "outstanding, but not a college graduate" resumes automatically end up being rejected by computers before reaching human eyes.)


2.  But it isn't just about "a person the upper management types will feel comfortable mentoring''  it's also very much about whom the managements' clients will feel comfortable opening up to/with in business and even social situations. If you have top-end clients, you don't want them to feel they are dealing with 'idiots', because those 'idiots' directly represent the company the clients have hired.

That can be rephrased as "top-end clients don't want to deal with blacks, women, smart country kids from fly-over states who were tops in their class at Large State University". This can also lead to completely missing out on markets or phenomena not in the usual world view of rich white boy graduates of Fancy Private Universities.
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Justinr

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2015, 02:34:10 pm »

It's all a huge pointless con. Prospective students are being told that if you go to Uni you will get a better job and earn more money. Which was only true when the top few percent of people go to Uni, it used to be 3% ish and employers will pay more for the best qualified people. But if a large percentage of population is equally highly qualified, then there is little added benefit to having a Uni education.  Particularly if you also have tuition fees the government has now added to the cost of Uni. The number of high paying jobs doesn't increase in line with Uni admissions either.
Giving everyone high grades is also counterproductive as part of the the grades system is to differentiate people - which most people do not realise. Educate people so that they learn and can pass certainly, but still have gradation in the system so you can see who the best people are. It's foolish and basically lying by omission if you do not show that.
The Uni system worked because it was elitist, lowering the barriers to entry and the ease of getting a degree undermines the whole thing. Changing Polys to Universities was also a dumb move, Polytechs offered a different kind of education, one more geared to getting a sensible job rather than being purely academic. Which is far more important for the vast majority of those doing further education.
The South. More populous, but far less Welsh spoken. An agricultural college also has a quite different catchment from Universities, so I'd expect more Welsh speakers there as farming country is where Welsh is more dominant.

Quite.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2015, 02:52:59 pm »

It's all a huge pointless con. Prospective students are being told that if you go to Uni you will get a better job and earn more money. Which was only true when the top few percent of people go to Uni, it used to be 3% ish and employers will pay more for the best qualified people. But if a large percentage of population is equally highly qualified, then there is little added benefit to having a Uni education.  Particularly if you also have tuition fees the government has now added to the cost of Uni. The number of high paying jobs doesn't increase in line with Uni admissions either.
Giving everyone high grades is also counterproductive as part of the the grades system is to differentiate people - which most people do not realise. Educate people so that they learn and can pass certainly, but still have gradation in the system so you can see who the best people are. It's foolish and basically lying by omission if you do not show that.
The Uni system worked because it was elitist, lowering the barriers to entry and the ease of getting a degree undermines the whole thing. Changing Polys to Universities was also a dumb move, Polytechs offered a different kind of education, one more geared to getting a sensible job rather than being purely academic. Which is far more important for the vast majority of those doing further education...

Strange as it might sound, I actually agree with you on this one.

Rob C

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2015, 03:12:13 pm »

RobC said:
"Nancy,

Forgive me for messing up your paragraph into numbered points (thanks, looks better), it's just easier to answer them that way.

1. Some jobs simply require the applicant to have demonstrated a very exceptional quality of personality and achievement for the clear reason that those jobs themselves are demanding of those special abilities that the students have displayed. Degrees don't always/only reflect parrot ability. The job interview also takes cognizance of the other, additional things that the graduate has done in the pursuit of his/her degree, things outwith the strict requirements of the course, self-motivated interests in branches of the subject that (s)he has done on his/her own initiative. For example, a law graduate who has also excelled in inter-university debate; a medical student who has performed lots of voluntary work in various situations where it's applicable, such as first-aid at sporting events etc. People showing willingness beyond the formal, educational part of whatever they are involved with have that on their CV too... So in answer to the question, a good CV reveals the graduate's wider input and value.

(Most applicants don't get a job interview. Most businesses' HR departments  will have a hard requirement for completed college degree for many  positions. Considering my level of education (doctoral degree), I might be inclined to favor strict educational requirements for business positions, but my family history has made me somewhat skeptical. My father had some college, but never completed a degree. He had some manufacturing process management jobs and sales jobs, saved up, started his own business in the early 1960s. He had more business sense than a graduating class of M.B.A.s. If he had applied in the current climate, his application would have been rejected out of hand. Remember, HR types are using Monster and other online services to pre-screen applicants, and "outstanding, but not a college graduate" resumes automatically end up being rejected by computers before reaching human eyes.)


2.  But it isn't just about "a person the upper management types will feel comfortable mentoring''  it's also very much about whom the managements' clients will feel comfortable opening up to/with in business and even social situations. If you have top-end clients, you don't want them to feel they are dealing with 'idiots', because those 'idiots' directly represent the company the clients have hired.

That can be rephrased as "top-end clients don't want to deal with blacks, women, smart country kids from fly-over states who were tops in their class at Large State University". This can also lead to completely missing out on markets or phenomena not in the usual world view of rich white boy graduates of Fancy Private Universities.


That's possibly the case in some places, and I agree that a lot of talent might not get through when it deserves to get through. But, that's life, and other top talent does get through. You can't expect to have different rules for different social classes by decree; that many 'clients' might not like dealing with black people or women is probably perfectly true as well, but that's also life, and to make official quotas based on nothing more than forced selection arrangements smacks of tokenism too. There's a case of what looks suspiciously like that now in Canada with the 50-50 Trudeau government. We'll see how well that works in practice. (Funny, I seem to remember that Daddy Trudeau had a hellish time at the hands of a wife - or was it a girlfriend? - 'twas a long time ago, just as long ago as my memory, and I might well be mixing them up.)

They were hoping that the new, radical socialist leader of one of Britain's opposition parties would do the same, but it didn't quite get there, and tonight's news shows (to my amusement and delight) that the entire party is at internecine loggerheads, though not on that issue which, I'm sure, no party member wants to raise again right now.

But anyway, I think that tokenism is every bit as bad as the problems that cause it. And that's where governmental interference intended to 'socially engineer' life and society inevitably leads us: tokenism; an insult to the tokens, too.

I'm afraid that it's been my experience that it's impossible to 'arrange' society at the level that your utopìan system would need (one can't even arrange how a family works); there's nothing to recommend it beyond a political determination to have it so, and as political parties aren't the one's paying the salaries of most of the people getting employed (unless they are state pawns, and even then it's the taxpayer wot pays!), they are best advised to keep their noses out and figers off.

Now, were we starved of very bright young things making it, I'd be pleased to rethink my beliefs, but that's not the case: the case is one of preferring a different set of people to make it rather than the set that does right now. You can't do these things and have freedom. It's terribly easy to over-intellectualize life and cause utter confusion, and I fear that's what this kind of 'fixing what ain't broke' will do. In the end, the cream floats, even if not in the same container as originally expected.

Rob C

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2015, 03:37:11 pm »

Strange as it might sound, I actually agree with you on this one.

And as strangely, so do I.

Higher education was an option for me, too, but it played no rôle in the life I wanted to lead. I actually wanted to go to art school, but when we moved back from abroad and I found myself in yet another school, the entry interview went aganst my wishes, because my 'qualifications' at that point were too good to 'waste' in art school. Truth of the matter was that the schools, publicly, looked better the more kids they could ship up to university. So both parties lost out: I didn't want uni so the school lost one unit on its score card, and as I wasn't allowed to study art any longer, and found myself doing science (for which I felt nothing), I couldn't go to art school because I didn't have Higher Art, though I did have Higher bloody Science! I blame family just as much as school, but I imagine that both felt it was for my own good... I also note that kids today probably wouldn't accept that situation. So maybe something got better after all.

Yeah, techs are not unis, and we have some of the same fakes up in Scotland too. But, that's egalitarianism, and everyone must feel as good at everything as everybody else, regardless of the reality. Poor old George Orwell... the man who saw too much too clearly.

Rob C

Justinr

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2015, 04:14:28 pm »

And as strangely, so do I.

Higher education was an option for me, too, but it played no rôle in the life I wanted to lead. I actually wanted to go to art school, but when we moved back from abroad and I found myself in yet another school, the entry interview went aganst my wishes, because my 'qualifications' at that point were too good to 'waste' in art school. Truth of the matter was that the schools, publicly, looked better the more kids they could ship up to university. So both parties lost out: I didn't want uni so the school lost one unit on its score card, and as I wasn't allowed to study art any longer, and found myself doing science (for which I felt nothing), I couldn't go to art school because I didn't have Higher Art, though I did have Higher bloody Science! I blame family just as much as school, but I imagine that both felt it was for my own good... I also note that kids today probably wouldn't accept that situation. So maybe something got better after all.

Yeah, techs are not unis, and we have some of the same fakes up in Scotland too. But, that's egalitarianism, and everyone must feel as good at everything as everybody else, regardless of the reality. Poor old George Orwell... the man who saw too much too clearly.

Rob C

Indeed, what would he have made of the British police spying on democratically elected MP's, or would that be OK because they are of the left?
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jjj

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2015, 07:28:05 pm »

If us lot with our very disparate views on life and politics can all agree on the current state of education, then things must be bad.  ;D
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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2015, 11:16:56 pm »

If us lot with our very disparate views on life and politics can all agree on the current state of education, then things must be bad.  ;D

:D  IMO educational systems have always been mostly rubbish. My mom taught me to read & write before I ever entered elementary school. Genuine education consisted mainly of teachers exposing me to particular authors and books and ideas. Most important were the teachers who encouraged students to think and were good at doing that. Fortunately I had a few such. And advanced mathematics…that was my ticket into the work world. The rest…ppfftt.

-Dave-
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Rob C

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2015, 05:05:33 am »

:D  IMO educational systems have always been mostly rubbish. My mom taught me to read & write before I ever entered elementary school. Genuine education consisted mainly of teachers exposing me to particular authors and books and ideas. Most important were the teachers who encouraged students to think and were good at doing that. Fortunately I had a few such. And advanced mathematics…that was my ticket into the work world. The rest…ppfftt.

-Dave-


In my website I offer a 'thank you' to my last English teacher; the only memory of maths teachers was getting a wooden rule across the back of my hand...

Part of the deal with my entry, as an apprentice swapping from engineering to photography, into the same company's industrial photo-unit, was that I attend night school. This was an eye-opener: the guys doing the teaching were all employed photographers in local studios, and when one told me that were he to photograph like David Bailey, that he'd quit photography, I realised the place could offer me nothing. I didn't go back. By that time, conscription had been abolished, and I no longer cared if I was kept on or sacked for quitting. I was kept on.

But, that said, the daily usefulness of having got a good certificate in Science is manifest. So far, I have failed to electrocute myself in the kitchen or bathrooms; have realised how little people who, in this modern world were able to avoid the Sciences, are able to cope with domestic problems of any size.

A broad, general education carries with it all manner of benefits not connected with earning one's living. You can't be too informed, unless it concerns photography, where it can stunt and cripple you if you let it.

In my view, "The rest…ppfftt." does not seem logical.

Rob C
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 11:07:58 am by Rob C »
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NancyP

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2015, 12:18:46 pm »

RobC, I memorably got a chalky eraser in the face, thrown at a sleeping me by my 7th grade math teacher. I liked math, and did very well at math, but I liked sleep too. I was and am still pretty cheerful about being the butt of a joke too - after the "huh, what????" moment of waking up, I thought it was hilarious. Apparently, so did my classmates, because this was the anecdote for which I was known.
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Justinr

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2015, 12:25:36 pm »

Now here's a thing, Rudolf Diesel, Karl Benz and Carl Linde (father of modern refrigeration) were all German and all attended technical schools and colleges rather than arts based universities. Need we remind ourselves which country went on to become the industrial powerhouse of Europe?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2015, 12:29:47 pm »

... this was the anecdote for which I was known.

Fast forward, and that anecdote would be the one for which the teacher becomes known... for being suspended, media shamed, and fired.

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Re: Ad revenue drying up, what next for free websites?
« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2015, 04:38:49 pm »

Fast forward, and that anecdote would be the one for which the teacher becomes known... for being suspended, media shamed, and fired.
Deservedly fired.
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