dark bands in skies - defective Illuminata paper

[Roscolo]

I've bought some 100% rag 200gsm paper - roll. Looks nice enough, but printing a black and white landscape I see dark bands in the sky that are parallel to the movement of the printer carriage. Definitely not a problem with my file, as I printed the file on other paper and it's perfect. Also, I changed the position of the image and the bands still run parallel with the carriage. So, it's something with the paper or my settings. BTW, these aren't traditional bands associated with dirty heads or head strikes. These look to be related to how this particular paper receives the ink.

I'm printing on Canon ipf8300 and HPz3100. Same problem on both printers. Tried adjusting paper advance on the Canon. Didn't help. Switching to unidirectional printing and a delay of 5-7 seconds between carriage head movements and laying down less ink minimized the problem, but by no means eliminated it. Faint bands are still visible.

Maybe this paper is just crap. Anyone else using this paper or something similar who had this problem know a solution? Thought Canon would have some way of calibrating for this, but judging by the targets used with the Media Config Tool, it looks to be more for show. Definitely didn't come close to fixing this issue. Even if unidirectional printing with a delay solved it, it would still be essentially useless based on the time each print would take.

I've never used any 100% rag paper before. Maybe I'm missing something.

Added photo that shows the problem.

[Mark Lindquist]

That is so bizarre that the image would print the same defects on 2 entirely different printers.  Is the paper cockled by any chance?

I have some ink press Duo and I can get pretty good prints out of it, but too much ink and the paper cockles.

BTW - on my Z3200, I used FineArt paper More Ink for my profile.  (Was the one I liked best of three I tried).

The fact that it would be doing the same thing on both printers leads me to think that your speculation is correct that the paper is crap?

What about printing color?  Same problem?

If it was me, I would take that same image prior to conversion to B&W and try printing it on both printers in color.  If the bands are still there, I'd try an entirely different color image that the aliens didn't perform experiments on and see what happens....

Weird.

[Roscolo]

Thanks. I have not printed much on this paper. The image you see in my first post was one of the first. But the HP TC9.18 color target I printed for profiling on the Canon shows no banding, nor do the targets I printed on the z3100. I printed some quick images of paintings on it using the Canon ipf8300 and saw no bands. And in the example I gave above, I only see the bands in the sky.

Setting it up on the Canon I used Canon FA Brt White 230 and one of the Canon Matte papers as my starting points. Saw the bands on both.

When I set it up on the z3100, I used "Fine Art Paper" to set it up. I don't have an option for "Fine Art Paper - more ink," only "Fine Art Pearl - more ink."

I will take what I can get, but I would really like to get the problem solved on the Canon ipf8300, because I don't use my z3100 that much anymore....mostly use the APS to make profiles for the Canon.

On the ipf8300 I do have vacuum strength set to "strongest" because I thought the paper might be cockling a bit under the ink load, but in digging around on this someone said that vacuum strength on a lightweight rag should be set to "weakest," the opposite of what I would have thought. I have not tried that yet.

[Mark Lindquist]

When creating a new Paper preset, look under Fine Art Material> More Ink.  You're looking under Photo Papers. 

If you do make a profile, I'd try Fine Art Material>Less Ink.  See what that gets you.

My profile for Fine Art Material More Ink is accurate, but it throws a lot of ink on it.  That's why I'm recommending Fine Art Material>Less Ink.

Can't help you with the Canon - wish I could.

-Mark

[Roscolo]

When creating a new Paper preset, look under Fine Art Material> More Ink.  You're looking under Photo Papers.  

Thanks again, Mark. I'm looking under "Fine Art Material" and I definitely do not have "Fine Art Material > More Ink" as a choice on the z3100. You have a z3200. That's probably what it is.

I left everything the same and changed vacuum strength to "weakest" and selected unidirectional printing on the ipf8300. Bands are still there but fainter. That was also sheet fed, not roll fed so I won't really know for sure if they are fainter due to less vacuum or something to do with printing on a sheet until I try printing off the roll again. The sheet was cut from the roll, though, and fed through the same way, so I'm thinking between adjustments to the vacuum, print head height, and ink load maybe I can get some prints on this paper.

[Mark Lindquist]

OK.  My objective is to see if you can print with quad inks on that paper.

Try creating a new paper preset with Fine Art Material> Canvas More Ink.  That is a quad setting that might work, even though it seems counter-intuitive.  If you don't have that setting, then I guess the Z3100 just can't print in Quad inks.  It should though.

If you're game, try it.

[BobShaw]

IMHO if you have the same problem with two different printers then it is almost definitely the file. Banding in the sky screams lack of lack of tonal range from an 8 bit file and 8 bit processing.

[Roscolo]

IMHO if you have the same problem with two different printers then it is almost definitely the file. Banding in the sky screams lack of lack of tonal range from an 8 bit file and 8 bit processing.

Read my original post. Bands run parallel to the carriage head no matter the orientation of the print. And the file prints perfectly on other papers. Definitely not the file.

[hugowolf]

Read my original post. Bands run parallel to the carriage head no matter the orientation of the print. And the file prints perfectly on other papers. Definitely not the file.

That would also seem to rule out the paper, no?

Brian A

[Roscolo]

That would also seem to rule out the paper, no?

Brian A

Seems to rule in the paper. Or the settings regarding how the ink is applied to this particular paper. Pretty sure there is some minor cockling going on, especially since reducing the vacuum on the ipf8300 resulted in fainter bands.

Pretty sure some trial and error will get me to the proper settings. The lack of up to date info on the manufacturer site leaves much to be desired. If/when I get settings that work I'll share it here for anyone else.

[Mark Lindquist]

Another test you could try would be to let the printer manage the file.  Sometimes the Z 3100 does a passable job with B&W - plus it would be another way to see if the paper is the problem.

Also, have you tried the Fine Art Material> Canvas More ink that I suggested?

Which specific Inkpress rag is it?  On their info page, they do specify Fine Art Paper for the HP Z printer profiles.  If I know exactly which paper you're using, I can check to see if I have it and do a profile and send it to you.

-Mark

[Roscolo]

Another test you could try would be to let the printer manage the file.  Sometimes the Z 3100 does a passable job with B&W - plus it would be another way to see if the paper is the problem.

Also, have you tried the Fine Art Material> Canvas More ink that I suggested?

Which specific Inkpress rag is it?  On their info page, they do specify Fine Art Paper for the HP Z printer profiles.  If I know exactly which paper you're using, I can check to see if I have it and do a profile and send it to you.

-Mark

Mark, thank you again for all the good suggestions. I have not tried Fine Art Material > Canvas More Ink yet. I've got a ton of Xmas orders I'm trying to get out. I'm going to revisit this when I get those done. The paper is Inkpress 200 warmtone. Looks like all the stuff on their site is 4-6 yrs. old based on the printer models they show. They don't even show info. for z3200 and ipf8300 and those printers have been out for years. I built a profile for the ipf8300 and I let the z3100 profile the paper as well. Don't think the profile is the problem. Reading up on this it looks like a pretty common issue with rag papers and it usually comes down to paper advance and dry time between carriage movements. I'm sure I'll get it sorted eventually. Thought posting here might lead to a quick fix (and maybe it will - still need to try your suggestions). When I have the time to put in to this I'll update the settings in the event anyone else us using this paper.

[Roscolo]

OK. I've tried A LOT of settings, paper presets, inkload adjustment, etc.  I have noticed something about this paper. See the attached photo. This is a brand new 44" wide roll of paper, never fed into a printer. The paper is pulled up and over my z3100. See the faint lines in the paper running from the lower left to the upper right? These lines coincide perfectly with the bands on my prints! The banding in my print doesn't seem to have anything to do with any printer setting...this paper comes pre-banded!

I noticed the lines on the first roll after I about used it up testing various settings. I have a few rolls of this paper, so after I saw the lines I thought, "must be a bad roll." OK. Open another box. There are the lines!

I tried printing on the side facing the inside of the roll...still got the lines.

Anyone else ever seen any paper with these lines? I've never used 100% rag before...Are these lines/bands common to all rag papers? Anyone here know anything about the paper manufacturing process and can explain what would produce these lines in production? I cannot imagine any profile or printer setting that is going to overcome this, any shadows or large blocks of color and you see these bands from the paper in the print, but maybe there is something I don't know or that I'm missing.

[Mark Lindquist]

It's difficult to see the lines in your photo, but now, after hearing what you're saying, I'm thinking manufacturing defect is right.  Could be a bad batch, which would explain it occuring in two different rolls presumably from the same batch run.

I had a bad roll of Fredrix 777 from Lexjet - cockled and crinkled throughout. 
I ran the 44" out, into the basket and the wrinkles were still there all the way to the end of the roll.

My suggestion is for you to shine light in such a way that the lines show up distinctively and obviously, and document it carfeully and contact the seller and ask for a replacement.  If that doesn't work, go to the manufaturer and tell them your story.

They may send you replacement rolls.

Good luck -Mark

[Harvest Moon]

I had this happen with breathing color lyve  canvas. You couldn't see any lines before printing but any dark solid areas would show banding. 4 different rolls also the same thing. they were purchased through amplis foto and they made good with new rolls. I also had a roll of inkjet technologies metallic canvas that had what looked like water droplets all through it. You could see them before printing. those spots would not accept ink. that was purchased through shades of paper and they replaced the roll as well. document it and contact your supplier to see what they'll do.

[Roscolo]

STILL going through this. When this is all said and done I think I will write a full review of this experience...and the paper, too, if I ever receive any that is printable. So far the seller has just continued to replace the bad rolls with more bad rolls...after 3 shipments...and counting!

[Kirk at ManageColor]

I've read most of this post- I lean toward what Bob mentioned earlier in the thread- its in the file; however in a way that you would not necessarily see if you looked at the file.

The kind of banding I am referring to is caused by having a smoother gradation of tone in the file and not enough available gradations of tone for the print due to the paper/ink combination resulting in gaps in tone. Typically files have 24 bits of color information, 8 bits per each of the red, green and blue channels (it is possible to have 48 bit color - but this is not usual.) Each 8 bit channel can produce 256 possible intensities of that color and when you put the channels on top of one another - 16.7 million possible colors in your file (theoretically.)

Because of the limits of ink that can be laid down on any specific paper, and the limits of the colorant in the inks, you may only be able to represent a fraction of that 16.7 million color palette. It may turn out the you can represent more colors in the red and magenta areas, but far fewer in the blues and greens and grays- it depends on the paper and the ink.

Lets say your sky is neutral gray- but with a wide, smooth tonal range from dark to light. Your file may require 50 tones to represent that smooth gradation but because of the limits of the ink and paper you only have 12 tones to work with in the print (this is a simplification for explanation.)The print process will compress the 50 tones down to 12- and where there was a smooth gradation in the file (50 tones) now you have 12 tone in the print and adjoining tones are now not smooth but staggered. The border between the tones appear as bands.

This will be especially noticeable if one particular area of that tonal ranges in your image has this noticeable border/band, and is surrounded by areas that don't have this issue.

Different papers in combination with different ink sets each will have its own capability in terms of color space, tonal space and the spread of gradation in any given area of the color palette. I imagine that if you printed this image on Epson Premium Luster paper on an Epson 9900 (wide gamut and tonal range) the banding would not be present or much less noticeable.

I hope the information helps.
 

[Mark Lindquist]

STILL going through this. When this is all said and done I think I will write a full review of this experience...and the paper, too, if I ever receive any that is printable. So far the seller has just continued to replace the bad rolls with more bad rolls...after 3 shipments...and counting!

Did you ever try making a custom profile that I suggested earlier:  Fine Art Material> Canvas More ink?

Might surprise you -

Mark

[Kirk at ManageColor]

A custom profile could possibly help the situation. I believe that some profiling software will even allow you to specify more data points in a certain region of color and tone, this would allow for more tones to be represented in that area- and could reduce or eliminate the tonal compression banding in that area. However that would mean that the profile will be weaker in some other areas.

Another possibility, if you are dedicated to printing on that paper, is to manipulate that selected area in photoshop to reduce the gradation of tone to something that will print without the bands.

Softproofing in photoshop might reveal the bands and could be used to assist in modification of the file. I say "might" because soft proofing is not very exact and you view the soft proof on a monitor where the transmissive light source will probably blow out the bands.

Just as an aside- most users have the brightness of their monitors turned way up- without a calibrated monitor there is no way you are going to see an accurate representation of the file on screen, perhaps close if you are lucky but certainly not subtle changes in tone and very accurate color.     

[Kirk at ManageColor]

By the way, I have received defective rolls of fine art paper. Anything that would cause a change in the absorption of ink on paper will produce print artifacts.

Non- uniform paper compression (parts of the paper squeezed more densely then others.)

non-uniform coating of ink receptor on the paper.

Handling marks on the paper