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Author Topic: If this doesn't boil your blood, have your partner check to see if you're dead.  (Read 17419 times)

petermfiore

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Not exactly: "it might be interesting to try to understand their point of view" :-)


For me it's not might be. I might not agree, but it's always interesting.

Peter

Isaac

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For me it's not "the point of view" that I find interesting, but trying to understand.

Did we get there yet? :-)
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petermfiore

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For me it's not "the point of view" that I find interesting, but trying to understand.

Did we get there yet? :-)

After all, tis the season of giving....We are there.

Peter

Michael West

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The author appears to be a tad ENVIOUS!

nothing can be done for people like that!
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stamper

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I think many of us who create art don't really care whether you or anyone else agrees.

If I post one of my many crappy images on here and proclaim to the forum it is art because I say so then will the members automatically accept my proclamation? Somehow I don't think so. My self proclaimed piece of art will get nitpicked. Nothing personal but I see a certain amount of conceit on display in this thread. :(

petermfiore

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If I post one of my many crappy images on here and proclaim to the forum it is art because I say so then will the members automatically accept my proclamation? Somehow I don't think so. My self proclaimed piece of art will get nitpicked. Nothing personal but I see a certain amount of conceit on display in this thread. :(

Nitpicking is a critique. All art is subject to that very process. Go to any museum and stand in front a favorite master work long enough you will hear the praise along with the varied negative points of view. Art is not always universally embraced by all. The artist needs to be secure with their choice of what they exhibit.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 08:03:09 am by petermfiore »
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amolitor

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To say that art is subjective is simplistic to the point of silliness. Nonetheless one can say that art exists largely in the mind of the viewer.

If you think it's art, it is. For you.
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RSL

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Okay Andrew, now please explain the difference between the word "subjective" and the term "in the mind of the viewer."
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amolitor

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Heh.

Art is, technically, "intersubjective", which is pretty much a word invented to describe the social elements of Art. Something is intersubjective if it essentially subjective, from an individual, but also a largely shared social experience. To glibly say that "art is subjective" is to deny that there's a surprising amount of agreement about what's good and what's not. And yet, there is no objective measure of "goodness" in Art.

Hence, "intersubjective"

When I make something and say "Art" then it is Art, for me. If it's not Art for anyone else, well, then it's not part of the bigger social construct that we think of as Art. But it's still, in some sense, art, but just for me.

Perhaps it's purely subjective Art at this point?

It's all kind of hair-splitting and semantic chopping, but it's something I am interested in. And it does get at the fundamental problem of:

- it's NOT objective, there are no objective measurements here
- and yet there tends to be broad, albeit not universal, agreement about what's in and what's out
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Andrew, I would add one more element to yours two (subjectivity and society): time, as in "historic distance." The more we have it, the broader and more universal agreement (of what's art) gets.

amolitor

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Yup! There's a whole kettle of stuff about 'well, how earth do we GET this rough consensus on what's Art and what's Not?'.

It's simultaneously fascinating, and pointless masturbation ;)
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amolitor

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On that note, though, in these modern times (and this is QUITE new) the first step in generating that larger social consensus is to declare firmly that what you've made is Art.

In these modern times, in order to convince "the world" that something is Art you must first take a stand. If you don't believe it, why should anyone else? This is probably what people are really getting at when they say 'art is what the artist says it is'. We can consider it, essentially, a sales job designed to generate social consensus. The sales job does not always work at building a broad consensus.

I suppose you could invent a "scale of Artness" with 0 being "only the artist believes" and 100 being "pretty much everyone on earth agrees" and then, I don't know, discuss something around that.
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Isaac

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In these modern times, in order to convince "the world" that something is Art you must first take a stand. If you don't believe it, why should anyone else?

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" [sometime before 10 CE]
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ripgriffith

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"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" [sometime before 10 CE]
I believe this is from Rebbe Hillel the Elder.
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Diego Pigozzo

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....
- and yet there tends to be broad, albeit not universal, agreement about what's in and what's out

I think this is largely due to the fact that we all share the same biology and, therefore, the same loose categories of "good" and "bad".


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ripgriffith

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It seems to me that this "late to the party" and, by implication, irrelevant post has certainly generated a lot of interest: to date, 2015 views, 57 replies.
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stamper

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 "late to the party" is all about forum etiquette which you seem to be in denial about? You admitted you read the other post but decided to start another thread about the exact same subject. There has now been three threads - one now closed by the member who started it - on the same subject. Most forum moderators would have merged them by now but it doesn't seem to be the policy on Luminous Landscape. Ironically you were a little abusive when this was pointed out and you are still going on about it.  :(

stamper

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You are the one who brought it up? Seems like you don't like to be contradicted?

ripgriffith

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"late to the party" is all about forum etiquette which you seem to be in denial about? You admitted you read the other post but decided to start another thread about the exact same subject. There has now been three threads - one now closed by the member who started it - on the same subject. Most forum moderators would have merged them by now but it doesn't seem to be the policy on Luminous Landscape. Ironically you were a little abusive when this was pointed out and you are still going on about it.  :(
I believe the facts indicate you are in denial  about the interest in this topic, hence the number of views and posts, and you still haven't grasped what the subject was about; not about high-priced photographs and million dollar photographers, but about a self-important critic deciding he alone can determine that photography is not art.  Now, at this point, you bore me, so  I will go shooting.
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stamper

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Don't aim the gun at yourself. ;)
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