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Phil Indeblanc

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Client requests and demands
« on: November 22, 2014, 03:57:09 pm »

I was hired to do a cool shoot that would involve heavy post work. We agreed on 3 images. It changed to 5 with pay. But client wants all the other non-edit images Raw or high resolution. An EU international client that sought me out. On one hand I'm happy to have done the work, on the other how do I know it wont be edited by someone and used commercially? About 30 other images.
The shoot involved client renting renting a unique subject that I likely wouldn't have a chance(nor the burning desire) to shoot in a life time...If that would make any differnece(?)
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Box Brownie

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2014, 05:32:34 pm »

I was hired to do a cool shoot that would involve heavy post work. We agreed on 3 images. It changed to 5 with pay. But client wants all the other non-edit images Raw or high resolution. An EU international client that sought me out. On one hand I'm happy to have done the work, on the other how do I know it wont be edited by someone and used commercially? About 30 other images.
The shoot involved client renting renting a unique subject that I likely wouldn't have a chance(nor the burning desire) to shoot in a life time...If that would make any differnece(?)

Surely all covered by the contract???  You have already said the count went from 3 to 5 with (if I read it correct) more money/pay then a logical surmise is that if he wants all the original RAWs then that also has a price because in effect he is asking for an assignment of your copyright i.e. there is only one original RAW.  so like the 3 to 5 increase work out a mutually acceptable price how high that figure should be only you can determine because you have not given any details for others to "calculate" for you.

Best of luck completing the payout :)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2014, 06:58:39 pm »

I would explain to the client that they hired you for your expertise and part of that includes how the images are processed.  Being such, you do not feel that it is their best interest to have access to the RAW files since they would not be able to process them to your level of quality.  Furthermore, it does you no good to have RAW files available for the public to see that have not been edited to your standards.  Having image such as this out there for people to see could have a detrimental effect on your business and tarnish your reputation. 

If they do not buy this, revert back to the contract which states they only get 5 images and refuse to hand over the RAWs. 
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2014, 07:40:17 pm »

Contract is for the 5. done.

Yes Joe, this is my concern. Even if I say $3K or? for the 30 unedited.
Correction...*They are not asking for the raw directly, but asking for high resolution files.  
The shoot involved over 150-200+ images. and there are about 25-30 they are asking for.

Thats another concern BoxBrownie, I photographed, someelse edits, how does one have say in copyright? Giving them large TIF files allows them to edit.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 07:46:20 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Box Brownie

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2014, 07:52:26 pm »

Hi Phil

Well! if you never have the desire or intent to use the images in any other way then sell them for a suitably high fee?  I suppose a bit like a 'shoot & burn' wedding tog. :)
 
However, as a creative I like you would be reluctant to release the images......................therefore in broad terms I agree with Joe.  In that you have completed your side of the contract (have you been paid yet?) and perhaps should take a strong line telling the client that you always retain creative control over your imagery and as such would be happy to provide them a medium res gallery (watermarked?) for their records but are open to any new contracts for the editing services when they decide they need to use any of the images in future.

You are in a business relationship with them and as such they cannot keep changing the terms and expect you to simply comply without further negotiation and payment for those services..................and they have no automatic right (unless agreed beforehand in the contract) to the unedited files!
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 08:40:42 pm »

They paid the 50% on the 5 edits. They received 4 of the 5. (approval sizes, not full resolution) Once payment is complete I will deliver full resolution of the 5.

So far I have asked what they might be willing to pay for the extra 25-30 images. They asked for a bank route#, but no figure.
They asked about the extra images again. I said lets complete this agreed 5, and then discuss others.

Yes BoxBrownie, that is it.
I want the client to be satisfied.
If they offered me a good sum, maybe I will take it. But I think I would need to draw up a new contract for credit on any photo used in any commercial work?

They are across the globe, I doubt to come across it, but, its worth stipulating in case of misuse.
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Justinr

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 04:51:28 am »

I've had something similar a few times now, once from the Irish agents of a large company that will be familiar to a lot of people here. I basically said no, and the head honcho can barely bring himself to talk to me now, but I really don't give a damn, I'm in business for the same reason as he is.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 12:23:20 pm »

I have a similar situation, just resolved differently. I shoot about 400 frames (mostly bracketed though), select and post-process about 40-50, and deliver it to the client as hi-res jpegs. They do want to see all 400+, and occasionally they would ask for additional one or two to be included in delivery. I told them I am reluctant to deliver all 400+ as hi-res files, for reasons others already stated above (i.e., mainly for the possibility to associate a non-edited file, or one badly edited by someone else, with my name). They understand and agree. They just want to see the whole shoot, to make sure there are no views that I considered unimportant and they do. Ultimately, they are going to use just 3-5 for publication, of those 40-50 I delivered. The trick is, however, in the pricing structure. We agreed on price per shoot. Whether it takes me a day or two to shoot, whether I deliver 30, 40 or 50, the price is the same.

In other words, crucial for your situation is to understand why your client wants those extra files. Two possible scenarios, opposite and extreme: one, as with my client, they just want to be sure they (or you) did not miss something. The second one is more sinister: they want to pay to see your expertise on 3-5 examples, than outsource the rest of the shoot to some post-processing sweatshops abroad for cheap replicas of what you've done.

The less extreme scenario, somewhere in-between the other two, is that they are not really sure today as to what they might need in the future, and just want to be able to come back to the shoot and post-process it later. Ideally, in such a situation, they would contact you to finish your own files. If they are scrupulous. If not, off it goes to a sweatshop.

About scrupulous clients/corporations... most of us all have a rather cynical view on that. We know we can't possibly track all future use of a specific time, territory, and use license, especially for global corporations. We might stumble  upon a misuse by pure chance, like the US photographer whose photograph was used for supermarket advertising in... Czech Republic (his traveling friends sent him a proof). However, based on a recent personal experience, the death of a scrupulous client is greatly exaggerated. I have an active license with a global corporation, exclusive, world-wide, etc., paid handsomely. Half way through the license, they called and asked for additional use, and offered to pay, not as good as the first time, but still substantially high. That additional use was internal, a coffee-table book, something I would hardly ever come across, except by pure chance.

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2014, 01:47:39 pm »

Good examples and experiences. Thank you.

The client initially hired me for personal use, as the shoot involved his wife as model.
I don't really care if they use the 5 for personal or commercial. I do care if the other 30 are used publicly.

Initially after the shoot I uploaded watermarked low resolution of ALL the images, and that is what they selected out of for the first contracted 5(and others) for unlimited use rights no transfer of copyright.
They said they want it for themselves, to just have them.

(good to "see" you Slobodan)
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alatreille

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2014, 08:48:16 pm »

Hi Phil,

I've recently (last 18 months) had this 'scenario' appear with a couple of my clients.  The majority are Architects - and as Slobodan mentioned, clients don't always know what they will want/need in the future right now.

I've resolved this with the following dialog and actions.

When I deliver final files I always provide two pdf contact sheets of:
   1. The final files as delivered
   2. The Contact Sheet prior to final development and post production (watermarked).

I also stress both verbally and in writing, that should they not wish to select a photograph now, and then do at a later date, they are able to do so and 'we' will complete the final development so it reads consistently with the other photographs.

I've since had clients come back 6 and 12 months later for additional development of other photographs they at first didn't think they needed!
They see this as a value added service.

Cheers

Andrew
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rcdurston

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 10:36:07 am »

Seriously, if you are not sure how to play it, I would hire Wonderfulmachine.com to do the negotiations as your agent for this one time deal.
They know the walk between client and photographer and have served me very well in the past with very similar situations.

Good luck
Rob
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:58:10 pm by rcdurston »
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tcphoto

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 03:48:18 pm »

Seriously, if you are not sure how to play it, I would hire Wonderfulmachine.com to do the negations as your agent for this one time deal.
They know the walk between client and photographer and have served me very well in the past with very similar situations.

Good luck
Rob

I think that this is good advice. You should complete the initial contract, hand it off to your Rep or other entity to handle further negotiations. Let the new group be the bad guys and keep the Client from badgering you about images they are not entitled to. There seems to be added value in the other images and compensation should be proportional to the additional uses.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 02:21:55 pm »

Thanks for the recommendation. I wish a company such as them would handle all my dealings and I can just shoot(and edit)!!! :-)
Any others in the west coast?  With some research, it looks like their staff is not only negotiators for photographers. They too are photographers. Doesn't this create a conflict of interest?
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rcdurston

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 02:31:44 pm »

Thanks for the recommendation. I wish a company such as them would handle all my dealings and I can just shoot(and edit)!!! :-)
Any others in the west coast?  With some research, it looks like their staff is not only negotiators for photographers. They too are photographers. Doesn't this create a conflict of interest?

Bill Cramer used to shoot, I don't think he does anymore though. This is way more lucrative

R
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 02:16:33 am »

This is license to use the work. (lately its been universally going to unlimited use!)
Hope this info helps you add some useful feedback.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Client requests and demands
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2014, 12:36:03 pm »

Yes,

Although my question maybe less legal orientented. It was more about these images, that I can use in some other manner, and they want to have and use. I'm trying to see if there is some value I can give them that makes sense to me. I kind of don't mind it, but not for free. Of course it is hard for anyone to put a value on it.
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