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Author Topic: Minimum shutter speed  (Read 16845 times)

armand

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Minimum shutter speed
« on: November 21, 2014, 01:41:33 pm »

So I got the D750 and getting to know the camera.

One thing that's becoming apparent and it's rather annoying is that it looks it has significant shutter shock which I didnt see mentioned I any reviews. Initially I thought it's just the higher resolution body syndrome that came with the D800 but my Fuji has a higher pixel density (and the D90 as a matter of fact).


I learned that the 1/FL is decent but I get very inconsistent results with the D750: it works for the VR (but nothing less) but not for the primes where I need 1/2FL to get consistent sharpness. On the X-T1 it works much better.
And I feel  the mirror slap much more than other cameras. I guess if I downsize to an X-T1 size the difference will be smaller but overall the high ISO advantage is less than full stop.

Any similar experiences?

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 01:44:14 pm »

So I got the D750 and getting to know the camera.

One thing that's becoming apparent and it's rather annoying is that it looks it has significant shutter shock which I didnt see mentioned I any reviews. Initially I thought it's just the higher resolution body syndrome that came with the D800 but my Fuji has a higher pixel density (and the D90 as a matter of fact).


I learned that the 1/FL is decent but I get very inconsistent results with the D750: it works for the VR (but nothing less) but not for the primes where I need 1/2FL to get consistent sharpness. On the X-T1 it works much better.
And I feel  the mirror slap much more than other cameras. I guess if I downsize to an X-T1 size the difference will be smaller but overall the high ISO advantage is less than full stop.

Any similar experiences?


just upsize to A7mkII = EFCS + IBIS... no Nikon (EFCS in Nikon requires MUP/LV, not operating with PDAF/OVF) or Fuji has that.
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armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 02:14:31 pm »

just upsize to A7mkII = EFCS + IBIS... no Nikon (EFCS in Nikon requires MUP/LV, not operating with PDAF/OVF) or Fuji has that.


My question was more specific to Nikon D750 (maybe D6xx) as I just got the D750 few hours before the announcement for A7ii came out.
And I would still have got the D750 because the main reason was continuous/single focus in difficult lighting and for moving objects where the A7, be that mark ii, still has to be proven.

Other things that go against it are lenses (I can use an adapter but I lose autofocus) as that would mean getting new native lenses and their offer has yet to come close to Nikon. Their output from the same sensor is historically inferior to Nikon.
It might be a great choice though with a couple of primes (or a really good zoom) as a maximum quality travel camera but I would wait before it's out on the market for real life takes on the marketing claims.


In my ideal world a Fuji X-T1 like (with a deeper grip) with a 24MP organic sensor with IBIS+EFCs and great continuous focus tracking with double the battery life of what it is now would be the ideal travel/hiking/daily camera. But one can dream.

allegretto

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 02:44:37 pm »



 Their output from the same sensor is historically inferior to Nikon.


you say this because...?
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armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 03:05:05 pm »

you say this because...?

I'm not going to look up the links right now but as far as I recall on the D3x vs the equivalent Sony and on more recent cameras (again, I don't recall right now the specifics) that used supposedly the same sensor the Nikon output was looking a little better as per some experts, mostly in the high ISO (I think Thom Hogan was one of them).
True, it wasn't a big difference but with Sony using lossy raws I don't expect this will change. If it really matters in practice it's a different story, for my level probably not.


Anyway, I'm still waiting for some feedback on my initial question as I want to see if it's the camera or me (or both).

Jim Kasson

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 08:20:19 pm »

One thing that's becoming apparent and it's rather annoying is that it looks it has significant shutter shock which I didnt see mentioned I any reviews. Initially I thought it's just the higher resolution body syndrome that came with the D800 but my Fuji has a higher pixel density (and the D90 as a matter of fact).

I learned that the 1/FL is decent but I get very inconsistent results with the D750: it works for the VR (but nothing less) but not for the primes where I need 1/2FL to get consistent sharpness. On the X-T1 it works much better.
And I feel  the mirror slap much more than other cameras. I guess if I downsize to an X-T1 size the difference will be smaller but overall the high ISO advantage is less than full stop.

It sounds like you're handholding the camera, from your 1/FL point. If that's the case, I don't see how you can discriminate between shutter shock and mirror slap. To see the effect of shutter shock without mirror slap, you have to use MUP mode. If you're hand-holding, mirror slap is almost always the long pole in the tent.

The 1/FL rules was never good for critical work, IMHO. Ansel Adams, in The Camera (from the second series), on page 116, talks about handholding a normal lens camera -- he doesn't specify which one -- and says that he needs 1/250 second for critical sharpness. On a 35mm camera, that's 1/(5*FL). I've done testing to find out how well I can handhold various cameras and lenses, and I advise you to do the same.  Take a newspaper and tape it to your garage door. Back off 20 feet or so. Take pictures at various shutter speeds; lots of pictures per shutter speed, so you'll get an idea of the statistics.. Take a picture with the camera on a tripod in MUP mode for a comparison. See how fast the shutter speed has to be to match the tripod pictures. I bet you'll be surprised.

Here are some test results that show that 1/500 is pretty good with a 58mm lens on a D800E, and 1/250 isn't quite as good..

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=5188

Jim
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 08:22:12 pm by Jim Kasson »
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kitalight

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 08:24:17 pm »

So I got the D750 and getting to know the camera.



I learned that the 1/FL is decent but I get very inconsistent results with the D750: it works for the VR (but nothing less) but not for the primes where I need 1/2FL to get consistent sharpness. On the X-T1 it works much better.Any similar experiences?


Minimum shutter speed without VR/IS is to a great extent/perhaps MOST dependent on USER technique....human body stability, hand-holding the camera, breathing, squeezing shutter...and more.

I can typically handhold my dSLRs steadily @ 1/.5FL I most cases from 50mm to 300mm primes....
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 08:45:09 pm »

I can typically handhold my dSLRs steadily @ 1/.5FL I most cases from 50mm to 300mm primes....

Whereas I, in an attempt to determine whether steadying a tripod mounted camera with your hand helped or hurt -- it hurts -- saw a degradation in sharpness of a 400mm f/2.8 lens on a D800E at 1/500 in MUP/shutter-delay mode from just resting your hand on the camera when the shutter fired.

Jim

armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 10:11:52 pm »

This is for handheld of course, I wouldn't care that much for a tripod.
You are right that I cannot say for sure which one it is, initially I called it shutter shock but than I got the impression that if I use MUP/shutter delay the pictures were sharper. Didn't try enough for much statistical value.
 
Thing is that I can handhold at 1/FL both my D90 the the Fujis (X-E1 and X-T1), and frequently often lower. And with a VR lens I can easily go at least 2 stops under.
With the D750 I feel a slap, almost rotation in the axis of the lens (from right to left, so not from pushing the shutter) despite the fact the body is bigger and I should be able to hold it steadier (true, mirror/shutter are bigger also). I have to relearn my hand holding technique which was working before just fine. If I really need 1/2FL than the high ISO advantage goes away compared to Fuji which kind of sucks.

Now I did a little more testing this evening with the D90+35 and D750+50 and they were similar and "steady" enough at 1/50 if I was really paying attention. Btw, that 50 1.8G is not a monument of sharpness wide open.
I can live with 1/1.5FL for primes but to require 1/FL for the VR lenses is just too much. I can consistently go to 3-4/FL for the Fuji 55-200, and about 2-3/FL for all VR lenses on the D90.


armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 10:22:24 pm »

PS. I just did more testing with a VR lens and I think I'm starting to figure this out.

When I push the shutter the Fuji focuses, then I feel a very slight delay before the shot, regardless if I wanted or not.
When I  push the shutter on the Nikon, it focuses then follows immediately with the shot. For this it needs 1/FL or so. If I do a half press first and give half a second, more or less, the shots are significantly sharper, going as low as 4/FL.
I think the difference is explained by a combination of me moving a little the camera (it's not like I'm jumping on the shutter) and the VR system having too much latency to cope with. If I give it a little time to acquire focus first it's much more effective.

allegretto

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 11:20:41 pm »



I can typically handhold my dSLRs steadily @ 1/.5FL I most cases from 50mm to 300mm primes....

If you have an 800 series nikon or a Sony A7R you CAN hand hold at any speed that makes you happy, but with out some kind of stability program there is no way most mortals can do it at 1/.5fl without support. You don't have to believe me, just tripod it on a good set of legs and compare it to your hold at ^ mag.

I can hand hold pretty well with the lower Pxl counts, but if you're being critical and have a packed sensor it's disappointing...
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Jonathan Ratzlaff

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 11:48:14 pm »

1/FL with that resolution is unrealistic.  That worked for film and for low resolution digital cameras but for anything over 12mp that is too slow for handholding.  2 or 3/FL is more realistic.
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Dave Ellis

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 01:05:46 am »

Armand another thing you might like to look at is the Custom Settings Menu, a1 and a2. These relate to how the shutter behaves for AF-C and AF-S respectively. There are two options, "Release" and "Focus". With "Release" selected, the shutter will operate as soon as the button is fully depressed, irrespective of whether AF has been properly achieved. With "Focus" selected, when you press the shutter button, the shutter will not operate until AF has been properly achieved. These options don't really matter if you half press and pause but it can make a difference for a hurried shot when you press the button right down in one action.

This is how it is on the D610 but I suspect it is the same of the D750. My apologies if it is not.

Dave
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kitalight

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 01:48:56 am »

If you have an 800 series nikon or a Sony A7R you CAN hand hold at any speed that makes you happy, but with out some kind of stability program there is no way most mortals can do it at 1/.5fl without support. You don't have to believe me, just tripod it on a good set of legs and compare it to your hold at ^ mag.

I can hand hold pretty well with the lower Pxl counts, but if you're being critical and have a packed sensor it's disappointing...

That may be true with smaller pixel sensors....I hadn't thought of that...still...
Here's a 1/125 hand-held shot taken @ appx 200mm on a crop sensor with a beast of a lens...the 1+kg Kino/Kiron (Vivitar series1) manual focus 70-210....near full frame and 100% crop that would reasonably approximate the larger pixel count sensor I think...

This is not a contest, nor do I wish to contest your remark...just wish to say that it can be done and done so regularly, with practice...a lot of practice....





Of course it helps to have a cooperative, nay, captive audience/subject.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 01:50:35 am by kitalight »
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allegretto

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 08:06:24 am »

do forgive me, I may have come off more truculent than had wished to.

is there a way to denote sarcasm/teasing in font?

in any case, don't ever take me too seriously...fun is better

no, was referring specifically to the 36Mpxl and above crowd. Whether it's simply an exponential function due to the sq area or something even more insidious... slappy shutter, mirror or both... I don't know. But they become far more sensitive to tiny motion.

I can take "sharper" hand held with the A7s than the A7R. The lower count images above 100% won't hold up to the 36'er but if it's OOF or otherwise blurred... who cares? It's toast either way .

Spent a lot of time in dark/bright spaces where we took "steady" to places most never see. But humans still shake, regardless of practice... every one of us... there is no discounting technique and postural considerations however as your shots testify to. They are extremely cool BTW. But if you had that birds eye you would see many flaws in the picture... they are quite special avians...

Cheers and Peace




That may be true with smaller pixel sensors....I hadn't thought of that...still...
Here's a 1/125 hand-held shot taken @ appx 200mm on a crop sensor with a beast of a lens...the 1+kg Kino/Kiron (Vivitar series1) manual focus 70-210....near full frame and 100% crop that would reasonably approximate the larger pixel count sensor I think...

This is not a contest, nor do I wish to contest your remark...just wish to say that it can be done and done so regularly, with practice...a lot of practice....





Of course it helps to have a cooperative, nay, captive audience/subject.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 08:08:28 am by allegretto »
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kitalight

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 08:33:37 am »

....was referring specifically to the 36Mpxl and above crowd. Whether it's simply an exponential function due to the sq area or something even more insidious... slappy shutter, mirror or both... I don't know. But they become far more sensitive to tiny motion.

Cheers and Peace

I know....with my 610 I'm still short of 36mp but I understand that I'll have to be even steadier jumping from 12 to 24mp...but the better high-ISO/IQ capabilities mean faster shutter speeds, thankfully....
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armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 09:29:29 am »

I would rather have unrealistic expectations than poor technique  ;D

What I don't get yet is how the motion blur is higher on 24MP FF vs a 12 and 16 MP APSC-C which have higher pixel densities?

armand

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 09:39:26 am »

Armand another thing you might like to look at is the Custom Settings Menu, a1 and a2. These relate to how the shutter behaves for AF-C and AF-S respectively. There are two options, "Release" and "Focus". With "Release" selected, the shutter will operate as soon as the button is fully depressed, irrespective of whether AF has been properly achieved. With "Focus" selected, when you press the shutter button, the shutter will not operate until AF has been properly achieved. These options don't really matter if you half press and pause but it can make a difference for a hurried shot when you press the button right down in one action.

This is how it is on the D610 but I suspect it is the same of the D750. My apologies if it is not.

Dave

The test shots were in AF-S with focus priority.

I'm mostly an AF-S type, I dont use AF-C that much, but I'm trying to have release priority if I will get bursts and focus release for less frequent shots. I guess I have to try more often the AF-ON button, I never warmed up to it, prefer half press. Paradoxically maybe I use AF-ON much more often on the X-T1 when in manual focus.

dwswager

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 12:49:46 pm »

So I got the D750 and getting to know the camera.

One thing that's becoming apparent and it's rather annoying is that it looks it has significant shutter shock which I didnt see mentioned I any reviews. Initially I thought it's just the higher resolution body syndrome that came with the D800 but my Fuji has a higher pixel density (and the D90 as a matter of fact).


I learned that the 1/FL is decent but I get very inconsistent results with the D750: it works for the VR (but nothing less) but not for the primes where I need 1/2FL to get consistent sharpness. On the X-T1 it works much better.
And I feel  the mirror slap much more than other cameras. I guess if I downsize to an X-T1 size the difference will be smaller but overall the high ISO advantage is less than full stop.

Any similar experiences?


I can't comment on the shutter shock or mirror slap on the D750 as I don't own one.

But, when I upgraded to the 24MP D7100 from the 12MP D300 there was some initial adjustment time in technique necessary before I got back to normal.  The D7100 has no OLP filter and is super sharp when steady, but the increased resolution (really pixel density) demanded better technique when viewed at the pixel level.  If you down sample the 24MP to 12 MP image size though, they were relatively comparable.  As I just got a D810, I expect to see similar demands at 36MP though the actual pixels are 4.9 micron where the D7100 pixels are 3.9 micron.  The quiet and smooth shutter/mirror system of the D810 is one reason I went with it over the D750 though.  That is one aspect of the D810 that has gotten rave reviews though the overall performance of the 5.9 micron pixel sensor of the D750 outperforms the D810 at all ISOs except when the D810 is at base ISO 64.

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Lightsmith

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Re: Minimum shutter speed
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 08:24:13 pm »

I found when switching to digital SLR cameras that I needed more like 1.5x the old 1/FL shutter speed. I can use slower shutter speeds with heavy lenses or with heavy cameras where there is more mass to absorb the mirror movement. I can shoot at half the speed with a camera like the D4 thanks to it greater weight than with a camera like the D750. One way to minimize the problem is to use the battery pack grip. I find I have to be more careful with my shutter releases and practice the best technique I can. This often involves slowing down.
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