Sinar Hy6/Leaf AFi and Sinar eMotion/Leaf Aptus series backs

[Carsten W]

Hello all,

I have just picked up a Sinar Hy6 and the eMotion 75 back for it. It should be a 75LV, as the LCD goes right to the edge of the opening in the case.

It looks like some things have changed a bit since I had an eMotion 54LV on a Contax 645 a few years back, and I am wondering if there are other Sinar users here who would be willing to discuss software and workflow, and perhaps other issues.

Btw, it looks like the previous user never set up the back properly, as the spacer was not inserted, and the back/camera back-focuses furiously. I will get it inserted and try again, but unfortunately I left it at work.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Carsten W]

86 views and no one has any tips for getting started?

I installed the spacer today, and now it focuses correctly. I need to test at various distances with all the lenses, but it looks promising. I also went out and made a few shots to test shooting workflow, and can report that the RRS generic L bracket I am using gets in the way, so I will have to think of something else there. I can rotate the back by removing and reattaching it at 90 degrees, but this is obviously not terribly desirable, so an L-bracket is a must until I can get the rotating adapter.

I have just been opening the files in CaptureFlow Studio, setting white balance and exporting as DNG, and this works smoothly. I need to examine how to work the colour this way, however.

Any further tips are welcome.

[paratom]

Hi Carsten,
when I had the combo I used the "other" Sinar software (dont remember the name) and not capture flow.
I was close getting back into Hy6 system several times but the S works too good for me...even though I believe when you get everthing right with the High6 and the Sinar back you can achieve beautiful files. Skin tones can be excellent.
What was the question again?

[lowep]

I have worked for a few years with the eMotion75+Contax645 combo and like a farmer content in his mountain valley am so satisfied with the results that I have managed to avoid upgrading to a newer system as you have done, so would be interested to hear what advantages have you found moving "up" to the Hy6? How do you find the ergonomics and autofocus system of the Hy6 and do the far more expensive lenses you are using with the Hy6 give far more superior results than the Zeiss lenses in the Contax 645 lineup or not?

[Carsten W]

Hey Tom!

I guess my question is just what the workflow is I mean, which capture settings on back, how you loaded files, and how you processed. I don't mean the little things dictated by taste, just the broad strokes.

Currently I shoot at base ISO (100), pop my CF card into a card reader, open CaptureFlow Studio (was eXposure), double-click on the card, select all, drop them on the Desktop, and then import into Lightroom. I have not done many shots yet, due to other obligations this week, but this seems to work fine. On the other hand, I am also not getting amazing colour yet, I will likely have to pay more attention for that to happen.

And so the second part of the question is what steps I could take to maximise the quality of the files I get out, including colour. Shoot the Passport on every shot, make a white shading file, whatever else?

Hello lowep,

I wouldn't say that there is any huge jump in quality, no. Certain lenses in the Rollei lineup are unmatched in the Contax lineup, such as the 110/2, 180/2.8, and so on. Others are just different (35 vs 40, 120 Makro vs 90 Makro). Overall, I prefer working with the Hy6, mostly because of the brighter, larger viewfinder, and the ability to do 6x6 film if I want to. The darkish viewfinder of the Contax 645 AF was its weak point, I found. I never did try a focusing screen by Maxwell though, maybe that would have fixed it. The smaller waist level viewfinder of the 645 system was also less satisfying than the Hy6. Other than those point, I like both very much. Ergonomics of both are excellent, with the Contax being a bit more classical, and the Hy6 a bit more modern.

If you like the Contax, I don't see any reason to move, unless you find something very specific lacking. If you have an itch to try other things, what about a Cambo tech camera for your back?

[Theodoros]

Hi there... My suggestion is to use Sinar's software... export to DNG and then import to LR and either export directly to TIFF or fine-tune the DNG a bit and then export...
I haven't used the 75LV on my Contax, but Emotion 22 was my first back and I've used (and processed) HY6 with Emotion 75.... I've also used 75H on Contax (same sensor, different adapter - same adapter as 54m, tethered only and 4x multi able). MO is, that your back is the best Single-shot back ever made! As simple as that... But I wouldn't say the same for the HY-6... Lenses are absolutely beautiful, but... I would much prefer the camera to be the C645... and wouldn't mind a bit C645 lenses or R6xxx ones... Could you please drop me a note if you ever decide to sell your back for good price?

Don't worry about the adapter not being the C645 one... I have access to my E-22 adapter and shimming I previously used to own...

[lowep]

Thanks Carsten for the reassuring reply :-)

I use the same workflow as you mention apart from post processing in Photoshop rather than Lightroom mainly because it is just the beast I know best. I often export a few different ëxposures" of the original raw file from Captureshop after discovering a lot of detail in shadows and highlights is hidden in the raw files and only appears, as if by magic, when the exposure of the raw file is adjusted.

For capture outdoors I always use the "cloud" setting for colors then adjust to get the pop I want in Photoshop. I save to the internal HD rather than the CF card that is a lot slower then if the Internal HD fills up and time permits I copy the files from there to the CF card. Rather than fiddling with white balance settings in the field I just grab whatever I can get and adjust the white balance later though am not sure if this is a good idea or not.

Using the LCD to evaluate images is about as useful as trying to aim via a shaving mirror at a tiger coming up behind you, even basic stuff like focus is hard to evaluate though if I understand right the LV model has a better LCD than mine. Once upon a time Sinar did offer an upgrade path from the original eMotion75 to the LV model but by the time I found this out it was already history.

It took me a while to figure out how to drag and drop raw files from the camera into folders on my laptop in order to automatically process them into .dng files, which as far as I can figure out is the only way to do this.

I have found that using flash makes quite a difference to the vibrancy of the colors I can squeeze out of this old CCD sensor that needs a lot of light to deliver good results. 100asa delivers the best colors but when necessary I shoot the back at 200ASA that gives me acceptable results though flatter and less detailed colors and only go up to 400asa in an emergency. So have had to learn to work within these limits. I am sure you would agree it is not an easy system to use but with patience can deliver quite satisfying results, no cierto.

Another thing I like about this combo is that it is so heavy if anybody ever attacks me I can probably use it as a weapon to protect myself :-) the closest I can get to digital copycat of my old 4x5 setup without having to rob a bank.

[Theodoros]

I think it is important to mention that this back is more view or tech camera friendly than any other... second only to the Dalsa 22mp sensor (not by much)... It is better with movements than all backs with kodak 9μm sensor... This is due to the pixel wells being particularly shallow and no micro lenses existence... The back is also less prone to moire than the Kodak 39mp sensor... (don't know why, the pixel size is slightly larger at 7.2 microns, than Kodak's 6.8 microns). My (personal) judgement is that its colour (as recorded) is the most accurate out of all backs out there that are single shot... I also believe its DR being the best... It also has the cleanest output at 400 Iso out of all CCD sensors, with only little DR degradation too... I would take its output over any back on the market... The screen is rubbish alright... but who cares if he knows what perfection has been recorded in the card?

Another thing to mention is processing latitude... su-pe-rb! (the only word that can describe it)... Files my seem to luck "bite" to some... but they are so accurate and can take as much "bite" as one wants in processing... The best back that there is IMO.

[lowep]

good luck with finding your sinarback theodoros. i dont have experience with other MFDBs but have noticed that with this one some moire can be an issue with some fabrics.

[Carsten W]

Theodorus, thanks for your tips and knowledge! I do not imagine that I will sell the back. I could imagine selling the camera, for example if I move to a tech camera one day, but I will not sell either for a long time. When I sell, it will be for market value

I use the same workflow as you mention apart from post processing in Photoshop rather than Lightroom mainly because it is just the beast I know best. I often export a few different ëxposures" of the original raw file from Captureshop after discovering a lot of detail in shadows and highlights is hidden in the raw files and only appears, as if by magic, when the exposure of the raw file is adjusted.

For capture outdoors I always use the "cloud" setting for colors then adjust to get the pop I want in Photoshop. I save to the internal HD rather than the CF card that is a lot slower then if the Internal HD fills up and time permits I copy the files from there to the CF card. Rather than fiddling with white balance settings in the field I just grab whatever I can get and adjust the white balance later though am not sure if this is a good idea or not.

[...]

I have found that using flash makes quite a difference to the vibrancy of the colors I can squeeze out of this old CCD sensor that needs a lot of light to deliver good results.

That is interesting information! I could occasionally use flash, although not in general. I will keep it in mind. So you mean that doing longer exposure does not give the same image quality as having more light?

Your tip about doing several different exposures is also very interesting. That would mean that either some data is lost in the translation to DNG, which surprises me, or it is simply easier to process the image in that way, rather than trying to do the same in Lightroom. I will try it out and see how it works for me. When you say that the detail in the shadows and highlights only show up when the exposure is "adjusted", do you mean that just touching the slider initiates a different behaviour of the software, or do you mean that CaptureFlow can bring out the detail better when shadows and highlights are adjusted here?

The cloud setting is the overcast white balance preset? I think that shouldn't affect the raw, just the preview image. Good tip about writing to internal memory and copying to CF later. I don't tend to shoot a lot of images, so that would probably not limit me in any way.

[Carl Glover]

I use the Hy6 eMotion 75LV combo myself, but have the files go through the old Brumbaer converter as it's extremely straightforward. Anything that gets me into Photoshop quickly is alright by me.

I love the camera and the back too - it's pretty rock-solid and has put up with a lot of punishment from me in a great variety of weather conditions. The resulting photographs don't disappoint either!

[Carsten W]

Does anyone in this thread have galleries where I could look at some of the results achievable with the back? The pro I bought my camera from provided this little gallery:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8370520@N04/sets/72157644824474024/

My own recent photos are here, but have nothing to do with medium format, being mostly Nikon D3 and D800, and some Sony A7.

http://500px.com/CarstenW

[lowep]

you mean that CaptureFlow can bring out the detail better when shadows and highlights are adjusted here?

in my experience yes though am no expert

[Carsten W]

Okay, I'll try it out and see if I can devise a test which would determine it conclusively, and report back here for critique.

[dergiman]

Watch out for the green cast in the 75LV files! IMHO the files from the eMotion 75LV have a green cast to them, tim-xxx´s gallery shows this. When i converted the raws in Exposure or CaptureShop and imported into LR i always had to dial in a tint correction of +66 magenta in the WB panel in Lightroom. The DNGs out of CaptureFlow Studio are a lot better in this regard. I am using CaptureFlow Studio now exclusively, ISO800 is also a lot better in CFS, actually quite usable. Not all DNGs are created equal.

About processing in LR: Also try the older 2010 process version, it gives drastically different results. I want to make my own camera profile for LR but i haven't done it yet. But i made some lens correction files for my lenses. Never needed a white shading file. The e75LV likes light, longer exposures are possible but more light is better. Exposure over 10-15 seconds do suffer a lot.

The revolving adapter is a must have! BTW: you should grab one of the many 50AFD and 80AFD lenses on ebay too. At current prices these are a steal.

[Carl Glover]

Philipp is right!

The revolving adaptor is a must - it makes things much simpler and it is easy to know if it is portrait or landscape whilst shooting just by feeling the orientation of the back with your hand.

I haven't found a green cast with the 75LV, probably a bit on the blue side though with my setup.

[Carsten W]

I'll have to pick up a rotating adapter, it seems a very useful thing. IIRC these things are very expensive, does anyone know the price? I would guess 1200-1500 Euro or so...

I am on track to pick up the Schneider 40/3.5, but I am wondering if anyone here has compared it with the Zeiss 40/4? I saw a comment on photo.net that the Zeiss was meant to be a bit sharper. Are there different versions of the two?

I tend to use a fairly wide lens combined with a short tele, so I think that the 40/90 set will probably be perfect for how I shoot, but I will start with 40/80 for now, since I have the 80.

I'll have to think about how I shoot with low light, since I have relied on long exposures so far. I will experiment a bit and see where the quality cutoff is for me. Since I do a fair amount of UrbEx and forest photography, I don't really ever have loads of light...

[dergiman]

The 90mm APO-Makro never appealed to me. It seems to be a great lens optically but 90mm and F4 just don´t do it for me. I have the 80mm and 110mm Planars, 80mm AF-Xenotar and the 120 Makro-Planar.

I never tried the 40mm Zeiss lens but i think the Schneider is the better lens. It is smaller, lighter, faster, takes regular 77mm filters and the floating element floats automatically. The Zeiss has the Zeiss look though.

[Carsten W]

I know what you mean about the 90mm, but f/4 is the same as the 120 Makro, and I do prefer a slightly shorter lens. The 90mm focal length I think comes into its own a bit on a 36x48mm sensor, being 105mm effective, or just a bit longer than a normal lens. I could also get along with the 120, but apparently it flares badly, and I prefer the stronger lens in that case.

How do you find the 120?

What is the "Schneider look", compared to the Zeiss look (and Leica, etc.)?

[dergiman]

Schneider look: High local contrast with low global contrast and very gentle transition into out of focus. Very un-Zeiss with the low global contrast.

The 120 Makro-Planar is a real Zeiss lens. Nice rendering (also for portraits if you like it sharp). I only had a flaring problem once but that was with a studio strobe pointing directly into the lens. It is one of my favorite lenses.