Glencoe, Scotland

[john beardsworth]

You're missing the point, Kevin. What is causing the problem is not nature's colours or any saturation adjustments. The scene may well have contained amazing yellows and oranges, but the absence of the colour profile is sending those colours way beyond believability. You need to review your Save for Web process and ensure you embed the profile.

[jjj]

I'll tell you what.  When I get back from the damp and wet Scotland trip I am presently on I will pull the original raw and do a small article on it.  The image I used was tiff file I made a while back.  Let's look at the file and see where the color really was. Yes, I do saturate sometimes but my recollection is that this scene didn't need much saturation.  I opened the shadows in the rocks and foreground.  Let's all take a step back and I'll be happy to go to the original RAW and go from there.  So, be patient for a week or so until I get back. I can tell you though the color was pretty overwhelming.

The colour of the foliage was fine to me, well within what I've seen. The sky however seemed a bit cyan rather than blue, which may be a profile issue as John thinks.
Overall the image looks a bit HDR as shadows as you mention below  have been opened up. But that's simply personal taste as to whether folks like that style. You do which is fine, other's don't, equally fine.

I am sitting with Joe Cornish and Steve Gosling who are well known for photography in this region.  Their feeling is that the yellows are acurate but maybe the way I opened the shadows is causing some illusion. Their suggestions is to pull the saturation in the shadows.  But the garish yellow everyone is claiming to be inaccurate is looking correct based on bright sun and the time of year it was shot.

So, I will revisit this and ask Joe and Steve to contribute to the article with me.  As they both tell me, here in Scotland color and light go from one extreme to the other.  I will ask each of them to process the same file in their way.  

How about that as an idea?

Should be illuminating.

[Isaac]

So unless you were there you can't be certain?

You seem to think that people have accurate memory and recall of colour.

However --

"In many cases, significant memory shifts have been found. Considering only one type of object (sky or skin or plant), memory shifts turned out to be systematic in the sense that they were directed toward specific intervals of hue, chroma, and lightness. This tendency was more explicit for photos than for standalone colour patches."

Unless you recorded the colours when you were there you can't be certain. (If you could, Dulux wouldn't waste money on colour strips.)

[stamper]

No one's doubting Kevin's honesty (you're the one who mentioned it, Stamper) and I'm not questioning his artistic judgement. Just how hard is it to understand the colours are unbelievable not because of creative choices or nature - but because of a simple post processing error?

You and Jeremy should rethink your posts because imo you both are in danger of looking as if you are making this personal? Kevin has explained his position clearly yet both of continue to disbelieve him. Calling his process an error is personal? If you remember correctly he didn't put the image up for critique.

[jeremyrh]

You and Jeremy should rethink your posts because imo you both are in danger of looking as if you are making this personal? Kevin has explained his position clearly yet both of continue to disbelieve him. Calling his process an error is personal? If you remember correctly he didn't put the image up for critique.

There's nothing remotely personal in any comment I have made. and I feel sure the same is true for John. Reasonable people can vigorously disagree without making it a personal issue.

[stamper]

Quote

Glencoe, Mars, as far as I can guess. Certainly no resemblance to any Scottish landscape I have ever seen.

My conclusion is that Kevin's photo is unrealistic. I am not making a moral judgement, or questioning his honesty. Kevin can create, enjoy, and post whatever pictures he pleases - it's his site, after all.

unquote

The last sentence sums it up nicely except that it is Michael's site....unless he has lost it to Kevin in a poker game?

[john beardsworth]

You and Jeremy should rethink your posts because imo you both are in danger of looking as if you are making this personal? Kevin has explained his position clearly yet both of continue to disbelieve him. Calling his process an error is personal? If you remember correctly he didn't put the image up for critique.

Huh? You are the only one who has brought up questions of honesty or tried to make criticism personal. Stop trolling, and just shut up if you've nothing sensible to say.

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

In defence of Skye and Scotland in general and just to let everyone on this thread know, that Scotland is NOT constantly under low lying cloud and torrential rain, nor is it midge infested for most of the year, and even though the colours can be very bright on occasion, they are never unbelievably so. So here is one of my shots of the old bridge in Glen Sligachan on Skye, taken just a few days ago and before these awful storms came barrelling through and making it difficult for Kevin and his team.

Just thought I should stand up for the place where I live, so please forgive me for feeling the need to show you all a recent picture of just how photographic this island can be.  

Dave

[john beardsworth]

In defence of Skye and Scotland in general and just to let everyone on this thread know, that Scotland is NOT constantly under low lying cloud and torrential rain, nor is it midge infested for most of the year, and even though the colours can be very bright on occasion, they are never unbelievable so.

... and there's only one Stamper there, people don't all have ginger hair or wigs, and photos of Scotland can have sRGB profiles (at least on days when it's not blowing a hoolie).

Just thought I should stand up for the place where I live, so please forgive me for feeling the need to show you all a recent picture of just how photographic this little island can be. 

Quite right too, Dave!

John

[stamper]

Huh? You are the only one who has brought up questions of honesty or tried to make criticism personal. Stop trolling, and just shut up if you've nothing sensible to say.

Resorted to type John? I think the members can make up their minds as to your comments regarding Kevin.

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

John and Robert, we need to keep things cool here, because all you are doing is letting all the other people on this site think, that we who live in this beautiful country of Scotland, do nothing but bicker with each other on this forum, to the point where the thread ends up being locked by Chris.

You have both said your piece, so let's move along quietly shall we, or this will become yet another dead thread.  

Dave

[john beardsworth]

Resorted to type John? I think the members can make up their minds as to your comments regarding Kevin.

Quit stalking me, will you? You've done it in this and a number of other threads.

To repeat, you are the one who raised questions about Kevin's honesty, not me. I have simply said that his colours are unbelievable because of a simple post processing mistake and pointed out exactly what it was. Now if I had wanted to criticise him, maybe I would have used "stupid" or "simple minded" - but no, I just referred to a simple post processing mistake. That is not hard to understand, is it?

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

John and Robert, we need to keep things cool here, because all you are doing is letting all the other people on this site think, that we who live in this beautiful country of Scotland, do nothing but bicker with each other on this forum, to the point where the thread ends up being locked by Chris.

You have both said your piece, so let's move along quietly shall we, or this will become yet another dead thread. 

Dave

Quit stalking me, will you? You've done it in this and a number of other threads.

To repeat, you are the one who raised questions about Kevin's honesty, not me. I have simply said that his colours are unbelievable because of a simple post processing mistake and pointed out exactly what it was. Now if I had wanted to criticise him, maybe I would have used "stupid" or "simple minded" - but no, I just referred to a simple post processing mistake. That is not hard to understand, is it?

Well that obviously fell on deaf ears didn't it 

Dave

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Well that obviously fell on deaf ears didn't it  

Well, Dave, it looks like this discussion has become as subtle as the Scottish landscape.Both seem to be in a torrential phase currently 

[Hans Kruse]

In defence of Skye and Scotland in general and just to let everyone on this thread know, that Scotland is NOT constantly under low lying cloud and torrential rain, nor is it midge infested for most of the year, and even though the colours can be very bright on occasion, they are never unbelievably so. So here is one of my shots of the old bridge in Glen Sligachan on Skye, taken just a few days ago and before these awful storms came barrelling through and making it difficult for Kevin and his team.

Just thought I should stand up for the place where I live, so please forgive me for feeling the need to show you all a recent picture of just how photographic this island can be.  

Dave

Dave,

You don't need to make apologies for Scotland and Isle of Skye This shot was taken this morning https://www.flickr.com/photos/hkruse/15681874125/
Since I came on wednesday it has been raining a lot and it has been very windy (as you know) but I guess this is how it can be at this time of year. I have a few days left and I have booked to stay in Glencoe on my way back Then maybe I will see what colors there are

[john beardsworth]

Well that obviously fell on deaf ears didn't it 

Dave

To some extent, Dave, yes. But am I really so wrong to label Stamper as a troll for trying to cause an argument with silly ideas about Jeremy and I questioning someone's honesty and making personal attacks? Neither of us has done anything of the kind - we have made aesthetic and technical points, based on factual evidence (examine Kevin's original image and you'll see that, unlike yours, it has no sRGB profile). After observing his contributions to threads where I participate, I don't think it's unfair of me to accuse Stamper of something close to stalking. I just wish he would add me to his ignore list - sadly when others quote his comments directed at me, I end up reading his half-witted drivel (you see, I can give compliments too).

[jeremyrh]

I have a few days left and I have booked to stay in Glencoe on my way back Then maybe I will see what colors there are

Take your sunglasses, Hans 

[Kevin Raber]

Really guys!  I think I have already suggested a way to look at this and evaluate the image. Why not wait and let a few of us show you what we do with this particular image.  I explained myself and the image.  And, the image was properly posted for the web.  We are not a WordPress site.  The color and profile is fine.  As the artist I have the right to do what I please with my images.  If you don't like them fine.  There are no rules as far as how we present an image as long as it is the way we want to present it. I post plenty of my images and will continue to do so.  I enjoy working my images as much as I do taking them.  If you don't like them fine.  As far as color and all goes I have had this happen with images of icebergs and folks saying there can't be a blue like is shown in some images but those that have seen these icebergs know they are that blue.  Every artist is free to manipulate or work their images they want.  Folks using iPhone do it all the time.  Folks that like HDR do it all the time.  BW artists do it all the time.  Are they wrong because they have changed the image in any way?  Not in my book.  Two photographer I respect a lot Seth Resnick and JP Caponigro work their images all the time as well as dozens more photographers that you an I know.  Are they wrong?  In my book they aren't. 

So, let's be patient and wait until I get home and can do as suggested earlier in this thread.  And, I'll include Michael now too.  We'll do an article on how each of work the image.  You might be surprised though as the colors I presented in my image were pretty true, garish or not.

Kevin

[dennbel]

Great response Kevin! I was wondering when this conversation would finally come to some understanding/conclusion as you have now stated. Not being sexist but, this was sounding like a bunch of women, like that TV program "The View".

[john beardsworth]

And, the image was properly posted for the web..... The color and profile is fine.  

Kevin, that's just not the case. Your original picture may have a profile and its colours may be as you intended, but the  JPEG that you posted does not have any profile. As a result, the colours are way beyond believability - even more saturated than I think you intend. It's exactly the same problem as a few months ago (link earlier in thread).

To see this, download the JPEG to your desktop, examine it in Bridge, and you will see no colour profile. As you pointed out before, we can't blame WordPress, so you've probably overlooked the Embed Profile checkbox in Photoshop's Save for Web - a simple enough mistake. So go back into Photoshop, Save for Web again and check that Embed box. Post the properly-tagged JPEG and you'll see a big colour difference in the browser.