Capture One 8 won't support Pentax 645z

[Pentax645]

I am trying C1 v8 and I love it (all what i missed in v7 its now there!)
I am ready to abandon Aperture and jump over here but..
sadly i discovered while reading your forum that you won't support the Pentax 645 since its in competition with the Phase One Digital Backs

With all my respect i don't think this attitude will help to sell more Phase One DB ...and less Pentax 645
perhaps in my opinion less C1 licenses..
Today Capture One is probably one of the very best (or actually the best) pro raw converter in the market, with the ambition to compete against product such as Lightroom but this all story rise an important question:
"is it wise to commit to a pro software that won't support a camera just because of strategic marketing reason??"

I was burned from Apple/ Aperture... seeing this..i want do the same mistake again

Best to all
Paul

[gdh]

Paul,

I agree with you--and if it is true, and a decision on the part of Phase One and not licensing issues, I think it's conduct below what I'd expect from Phase One. 

I can, however, see their motivation (not justifications).  After all, the Pentax 645Z is directly competing with their IQ250, in that they are the same sensor and same sensor size.  Further the Pentax 645Z just got a glowing review from Luminous Landscape's Michael Reichman himself!  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a_pentax_645z_diary.shtml.

People are asking why is Pentax able to sell back and camera for under $10k and the Phase IQ250 costs about $25k or more just for the back.  And that's a good really question. Some people might feel exploited?

Phase is a great company and I love their camera and backs, but if I wasn't so invested in my IQ280 with a 645DF+ and lenses, I'd be seriously looking at the Pentax.  And I'm not the only one.  Now, if they came out with a camera with a sensor matching the IQ280, priced comparably, it would be a much harder question. Phase must realize that we are all thinking the same thing.  And yes, it would make the decision harder for me if I knew I could no longer use Capture One, but I think these kind of tactics backfire.  Phase always touted themselves as an open architecture back--use any camera that it fits even if not their's. This doesn't seem to follow this policy.

Lastly, If Phase were an American company, they could be creating for themselves a bit of an antitrust problem, but I'll leave that for others.

I hope you get them to rethink their current position, if in fact it is as you believe and not just some licensing snafu.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

With all my respect i don't think this attitude will help to sell more Phase One DB ...and less Pentax 645
perhaps in my opinion less C1 licenses.

Hi Paul,

I agree.

People who buy Phase One backs, buy more than just hardware (and the availability of a huge number of lenses from various brands). They buy into a great support system and dealer network, with replacement/backup facilities, trade-in programs, etc.

People who buy a Pentax 645Z, either cannot afford a Phase One solution (initial purchase is expensive, upgrades/trade-ups less so), or need specific features that the Pentax offers and the Phase One units don't. They may need to buy a second body as insurance against down time that might interrupt doing business during repairs or in the midst of a shooting session.

Then there are those who are undecided, entering the MF market, not sure yet about their return on investment. That's a perfect opportunity for dealers to make a difference. Getting positive feedback on forums like this one can also help. Creation of antipathy (by crippling of software) doesn't help to decide favorably.
This is where opening up Capture One to support the 645Z may even help Phase One, at least they will sell licenses and upgrades of Capture One to many more people (including those who would never buy a Phase One back for various reasons), and it will keep the door ajar for future developments (think next generation/size CMOS sensor exclusive to Phase One).

Of course, Phase One marketing could be much more clever in reducing the risks of people deciding for Pentax instead of Phase One solutions. Being pigheaded won't help, it may even give rise to the development of viable competing Raw converter solutions that do support Pentax, and that will kill future sales of Capture One (there are probably many more 645 users than Phase One users, i.e. a big market potential which is/can be lost), or even their MF backs.

Cheers,
Bart

[deejjjaaaa]

This is where opening up Capture One to support the 645Z may even help Phase One, at least they will sell licenses and upgrades of Capture One to many more people (including those who would never buy a Phase One back for various reasons), and it will keep the door ajar for future developments (think next generation/size CMOS sensor exclusive to Phase One).

many more ? numbers wise people who use Ricoh/Pentax 645* and who might be willing to pay for C1 are simply zero vs the rest of paying C1 users (Nikon/Canon/Sony/etc)... just like the market share (body wise) of Ricoh/Pentax 645* vs the rest of cameras (for which you need to pay for C1)...

[deejjjaaaa]

sadly i discovered while reading your forum that you won't support the Pentax 645 since its in competition with the Phase One Digital Backs

btw, I converted 645z .PEF to .DNG and C1 v8 opens it OK (granted there is no profile created by P1 specifically for the camera - but you can try to use generic DNG profile or create your own .icc camera profile).

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

many more ? numbers wise people who use Ricoh/Pentax 645* and who might be willing to pay for C1 are simply zero vs the rest of paying C1 users (Nikon/Canon/Sony/etc)... just like the market share (body wise) of Ricoh/Pentax 645* vs the rest of cameras (for which you need to pay for C1)...

Do you have any idea of the size of the existing (and/or future) 645D/Z/? population (especially in Japan)? And what about new models? There is market growth potential in MF. And how about former Capture One users that abandoned C1 if favor of e.g. Lightroom.

I personally know users who have switched from Capture One to Lightroom because of the lack of support for Pentax PEFs. Those are lost customers, not because they wanted to, but because there was no viable solution (DNG conversions were substandard compared to Lightroom). How easy do you think it will be to re-gain those lost customers, and how willing they would be to consider a Phase One platform???

Cheers,
Bart

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

btw, I converted 645z .PEF to .DNG and C1 v8 opens it OK (granted there is no profile created by P1 specifically for the camera - but you can try to use generic DNG profile or create your own .icc camera profile).

It takes more than a profile to do a good Raw conversion. Having the same sensor as an IQ250 as a basis does help, but it's not a given that Pentax uses the same support electronics and ASICs to quantize and write the Raw data. Besides, DNG is just a wrapper, it's the Raw converter software that decides which EXIF (and Makernote) data it uses for the actual conversions.

Users report amazing high ISO performance, which may be even better than that from the IQ250. Where does that come from, and how does (or should) that impact the Raw conversion routines?

Cheers,
Bart

[Pentax645]

I dont expect them to create profiles for the Pentax 645 lenses or to offer tether capability.. but at list to be able to import the DNG from the camera is the minimum i would expect for a pro software of 300$...


Paul

[deejjjaaaa]

but it's not a given that Pentax uses the same support electronics and ASICs to quantize

it is Sony = ADCs are on sensor die, so you get a digital data off this sensor... granted firmware might have an option to control their work to some extent, but then who says that C1 gets the best out of NEFs or PEFs or any non P1 raw files except users own experience - it works with this situation the same way - try and see.

[deejjjaaaa]

Do you have any idea of the size of the existing (and/or future) 645D/Z/? population (especially in Japan)?

it is enough to know the total (including dSLRs and dSLMs) marketshare of Ricoh/Pentax vs C & N & S & m43 makers of this world to understand that it is not of any sizeable market, more so there is nothing specific P1 can do for Ricoh/Pentax that will change the ratio or C1 vs non C1 users for those cameras vs what P1 sees in other brands... and that will tell you that even the miniscule Ricoh/Pentax 645* size will not be fully P1s - so the miniscule numbers will be further low...

And what about new models? There is market growth potential in MF.

yes, indeed... I see your vision how Ricoh/Pentax and their MF sensors cameras will be taking the over world  ...  because otherwise a paying C1 user of MFD camera is worth no more than a paying C1 user of any Canon or Nikon camera

And how about former Capture One users that abandoned C1 if favor of e.g. Lightroom.

if they abandoned C1 in favor for LR because C1 does not support Ricoh/Pentax 645* then they are few and nobody miss a sleep over them

I personally know users who have switched from Capture One to Lightroom because of the lack of support for Pentax PEFs.

Bart, who cares who you know personally in this aspect... I personally know more communists than you know users who switched from C1 to LR, does it mean that we are in danger of being overtaken by reds  ?

[Pentax645]

the main point is that a 300$ pro software that won't support a top pro DSLR for some stupid marketing reason...its a real shame!

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It seems that Phase One has little acceptance for DNG. In part I guess that it is a bad case of the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome, a marketing reason or something else.

Another explanation may be that the DNG-specification may have not been translated to Danish.

It is a pity that Phase One ignores DNG, as DNG has a pretty good specification of both processing parameters and lens profiles. Programs like RawTherapee and Iridient Developer handle both DNG-files and DCP profiles. But well, why be constructive when you can be destructive?

Best regards
Erik

the main point is that a 300$ pro software that won't support a top pro DSLR for some stupid marketing reason...its a real shame!

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Bart, who cares who you know personally in this aspect... I personally know more communists than you know users who switched from C1 to LR, does it mean that we are in danger of being overtaken by reds  ?

Are they photographers?

Cheers,
Bart

[Paul2660]

the main point is that a 300$ pro software that won't support a top pro DSLR for some stupid marketing reason...its a real shame!

Maybe Pentax should step up and make a raw conversion software. 

Phase One has always kept the Pentax 645D and Lecia files in a non supported fashion.  Their support for 35mm DSLR files is hit and miss.  For example, they made one attempt to make a profile for the D800e and it was less than perfect, and as far as I know never updated.  I often use the Phase One IQ250 profile on my D800e files however C1 will open these so it's much easier to work with them.   The profile for the D810 is much better in C1 ver 8.  Their profiles and raw support for Fuji is excellent. 

I believe it's  possible to convert the 645z to a file format so that Phase One will open it as a IQ250 file as there has been a lot written about this.  So it can be done. 

If the 645z takes off to mainstream, their might be a utility, 3rd party, that will make the conversion so you can work with the files in C1. 

The other big loss to users is the tethering support for the 645z/d and Lecia DSLR.  C1 has an excellent tethering ability.  I have used it with Canon, Nikon and Phase backs.

I don't believe you will ever see Phase One, openly, support the 645z.  It's not just the 645z, as they don't support any other Medium format back I am aware of, besides Phase One.   

For now there is always ACR and LR and LR 6 should be out soon. 

Dare I say it, one of the reasons I went with a P45+ back in 2008, was that I had been using C1 since 3.7.6 and loved it on my Canon files.  I knew that I would be paying a lot for the back, loved the Phase One software already so it did steer me to purchase a Phase One back.  Since moving to a tech camera, I am even more dependent on C1. 

Paul

Paul

[Pentax645]

Maybe Pentax should step up and make a raw conversion software.  

Phase One has always kept the Pentax 645D and Lecia files in a non supported fashion.  Their support for 35mm DSLR files is hit and miss.  For example, they made one attempt to make a profile for the D800e and it was less than perfect, and as far as I know never updated.  I often use the Phase One IQ250 profile on my D800e files however C1 will open these so it's much easier to work with them.   The profile for the D810 is much better in C1 ver 8.  Their profiles and raw support for Fuji is excellent.  

I believe it's  possible to convert the 645z to a file format so that Phase One will open it as a IQ250 file as there has been a lot written about this.  So it can be done.  

If the 645z takes off to mainstream, their might be a utility, 3rd party, that will make the conversion so you can work with the files in C1.  

The other big loss to users is the tethering support for the 645z/d and Lecia DSLR.  C1 has an excellent tethering ability.  I have used it with Canon, Nikon and Phase backs.

I don't believe you will ever see Phase One, openly, support the 645z.  It's not just the 645z, as they don't support any other Medium format back I am aware of, besides Phase One.  

For now there is always ACR and LR and LR 6 should be out soon.  

Dare I say it, one of the reasons I went with a P45+ back in 2008, was that I had been using C1 since 3.7.6 and loved it on my Canon files.  I knew that I would be paying a lot for the back, loved the Phase One software already so it did steer me to purchase a Phase One back.  Since moving to a tech camera, I am even more dependent on C1.  

Paul

Paul

You see Paul, you don't want to use the Pentax software because since many years you use C1 which does a terrific job with your canon and fuji raw files
What are you supposed to do? change converter...after spending hundreds and hundreds of $$$ and hours and hours of work???
If you convert the Pef to DNG via Adobe DNG converter.. it works.... but its a pain!
Whom is it benefiting from this politic...?   I just  know that the only one which get unhappy are the loyal costumers of C1 which want to use the Pentax 645z !

[deejjjaaaa]

It's not just the 645z, as they don't support any other Medium format back I am aware of, besides Phase One.   

645z is a dSLR, not MF back

[deejjjaaaa]

But well, why be constructive when you can be destructive?

why twist the logic ? P1 does not destroy anything, they simply support a certain subset of cameras... you don't complain why ACR does not support ICC "camera profiles" but only DCP, do you ?

[deejjjaaaa]

the main point is that a 300$ pro software that won't support a top pro DSLR for some stupid marketing reason...its a real shame!

I do suggest first to find significant issues with the shots from 645z (converted DNG) in C1... did you ever try ?

[Pentax645]

I do suggest first to find significant issues with the shots from 645z (converted DNG) in C1... did you ever try ?

Its what i am doing... and it works...
but i found unfair to have to have to do this time cosuming step !
Couldn't they just ingest the DNG from the Camera... ?
I am not asking for any specific support just  a basic one

P

[deejjjaaaa]

Its what i am doing... and it works...
but i found unfair to have to have to do this time cosuming step !

amen !