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Author Topic: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations  (Read 6165 times)

samueljohnchia

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X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« on: September 22, 2014, 08:53:20 pm »

I've just acquired a brand new iSisXL, the REV E model, which according to the label on the base is manufactured in August 2014.

I noticed that the rollers, the orange rubber bands, are causing roller marks on paper that I feed to the iSis. I see pressure dents and also scuffing from the rollers. Please see the attached pictures.

I am now cleaning the iSis rollers after every sheet of paper I feed to it but the marks still remain. Is this normal operation for this instrument?


I also notice that the iSis status LED pollutes the insides of the measuring chamber - it is blue when the measurement is ongoing, and does not turn off. I have an i1 Pro 2 and the status LEDs turn off when the instrument is measuring patches.

This is what the glow looks like from the front slit of the iSis while it is measuring a sheet:


I shielded the LED source with some ProtoStar flocking material and remeasured the sheet.

Despite the scuff marks and the LED now shielded, the biggest difference is just 0.41dE2000, in a very dark patch, 6,0,0. This seems normal to me. I'm actually surprised that the scuffing, which looks quite severe now that the chart has passed through the iSis twice, has not thrown off the measurement data by more.

Quote
--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 3042

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (3042 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.05
    Max dE:   0.41
    Min dE:   0.00
 StdDev dE:   0.03

Best 90% - (2737 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.04
    Max dE:   0.08
    Min dE:   0.00
 StdDev dE:   0.02

Worst 10% - (305 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.12
    Max dE:   0.41
    Min dE:   0.08
 StdDev dE:   0.05

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

And a short rant about build quality - the aluminium chassis is very solid, no complaints. But the plastic bits are atrocious. The front bits are two pieces, instead of one. The white backing for measurements is also two separate pieces, instead of one. I suspect this is due to some cost saving measures - since a smaller iSis model is also manufactured.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 07:09:46 pm by samueljohnchia »
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digitaldog

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 08:56:59 pm »

I've never seen this on papers but maybe this one brand of paper is super sensitive? While it isn't great for the paper, I don't think it should affect reading of the targets.
The report of dE is two measurements made in a row? That looks fine but I don't understand when you wrote:in a very dark patch, 6,0,0
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samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 09:10:20 pm »

Hi Andrew, this is measuring Epson Hot Press Natural paper, and the inks are the Canon Lucia EX inks. I find it a more durable combination than other fine art/matte/watercolor media I have tried. Would you say this is a super sensitive paper?

The report of dE is of two separate measurements made of the same chart. The largest difference I am getting is 0.41dE2000, in a patch with a reference value of 6,0,0 - a very dark patch. Quite an unexpected and remarkable performance considering that the two measurements were made about 24 hours apart and I have not treated the chart with the greatest of care.

I understand from Ethan Hansen that the iSis when using i1Profiler to drive it for measurement, produces an average error this large for the darkest patches, due to suboptimal hardware and software. He says it is slightly more accurate when used with MeasureTool, but slower.

P.S.
I just edited my post and added a rant about build quality.
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digitaldog

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 09:13:43 pm »

Don't know off hand about that paper. You're letting it dry down 24 hours?
0.41dE2000 is AOK, so I wouldn't worry about that.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 10:26:55 pm »

The target was allowed to dry for over 50 hours before I first measured it.

The iSis is chewing worse through other papers which are even softer like Canson Rag Photographique.

Quite honestly I think it could be a much better device, considering the price and how many revisions it has been through. The two piece plastics are really cheapo.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 11:47:35 am »

Hi Andrew, this is measuring Epson Hot Press Natural paper, and the inks are the Canon Lucia EX inks.

Hot Press Natural is 0.5mm thick. The maximum paper thickness for the iSis is 0.45mm.

http://www.xrite.com/i1isis-xl-with-obc/Specifications

Jim

howardm

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 12:23:05 pm »

are you sure about that?  Epson advertises it as 17mil = 0.43mm

Jim Kasson

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 01:56:56 pm »

are you sure about that?  Epson advertises it as 17mil = 0.43mm

No, I'm not sure. Here's where I got my information:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/epson-papers-09.shtml

I checked your math. It's right: 0.4318mm.

Sorry if I steered you wrong. Is the 0.45 spec new? I can't find my manual, but I could swear that the spec for my older iSis XL is less than that.

Jim

Iluvmycam

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 02:21:38 pm »

Most FA papers get scuff marks from rubber rollers. RC papers are forgiving. Hanh F.A.B is one of the toughest FA gloss around. Gekko has a great natural gloss paper, but I can't print on the back. They have some beautiful surface papers out there that are nicer than the F.A.B, but they are very fragile and scuff up easy. Test FA scuffing by running the back of a fingernail over the unprinted surface lightly. Some scuff almost by breathing on it.

Matte black scuffs like hell and is prone to ink migration if it comes into contact with the back of another print. Always test your papers for scuff / smear durability before investing in a lot of it. (Don't forget curl problems too!) Some of the textured watercolor papers are gorgeous, but they flake off ink. No matter how much you brush, blow and even coat they get ink specks flaking off. Best to frame watercolor or matte fine art matte under glass. Test flack off by rubbing your fingers over the print vigorously and see how the blacks and mid tones hold up. (Do it after the print has dried for a good time.)

This is just how inkjet is....and you can believe me when I say I've printed on just about everything!

http://encyclopediainkjetmedia.tumblr.com/
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 02:45:05 pm by iluvmycam »
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samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 07:47:19 pm »

Sorry if I steered you wrong. Is the 0.45 spec new? I can't find my manual, but I could swear that the spec for my older iSis XL is less than that.

Hi Jim, you blogged about it in 2011, and you wrote that the maximum paper thickness allowed is 0.45mm.

The media release for the iSis way back in 2007 also says 0.45mm is the thickest media it will allow.

Quote
Hot Press Natural is 0.5mm thick. The maximum paper thickness for the iSis is 0.45mm.

I'm sitting here with a vernier callipers and the paper, and I really need a micrometer screw gauge for this. But I am pretty sure it is less than 0.5mm thick.


The stupidity of the iSis design is beyond belief. You don't need a lot of gripping force to grab and pull paper through. Why are the rollers rounded at the contact point? The surface area of contact is way too small, and would surely leave dents on the thicker papers that are fed. The rollers should be spring mounted like those found in our printers, and cylindrical (contact point in flat, wider surface area).

The iSis i1Pro head is not height variable. Which means that the distance from the media to the light source changes - affecting the accuracy of the measurement. How hard is it to make the i1Pro measuring head height variable? It is not. Then media of different thicknesses can all be accepted.
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TylerB

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 08:30:29 pm »

Hi Sam, the roller marks have been normal Isis performance for a long time. Mine has been doing it on every Hahnemuhle, Epson, and Canson fine art matter papers I've used. Not so much on photo surfaces. I brought it up on the colorsync list long ago, responses there agreed it was happening and that it can't be a "good" thing. but beyond that not much concern or indication it may be a problem. It certainly seems to me in the lightest of patches it would effect the measurement, perhaps it's not enough to make much difference, but on a high end precise instrument one's confidence is not inspired when the device itself contaminates the patches.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 08:57:55 pm »

Hi Jim, you blogged about it in 2011, and you wrote that the maximum paper thickness allowed is 0.45mm.

Isn't that embarrassing!

Sorry.

Jim

samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 10:42:36 am »

on a high end precise instrument one's confidence is not inspired when the device itself contaminates the patches.

Hey Tyler, thanks for confirming this. I followed your comments and found the few posts on the Colorsync list regarding this. Only two people responded directly about this issue, besides Ernst. Seems like not many care enough about it to matter.

Have you noticed if the status LED affects the measurements for wide sheets?

Ethan Hansen also complained about the LED flickering due to i1Profiler pinging the device when its connected and turned on. It will certainly kill the lamp prematurely. Mine gets quite hot after scanning just two sheets, and that's an air-conditioned room with the blower directed toward the iSis.

Indeed, my confidence is not inspired! Fortunately I did not pay the full $4500. It's not worth anywhere near that kind of money.

I wonder if I should even bother communicating this with X-rite.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 10:43:16 am »

Haha it's okay Jim! I do it all the time too!  ;)
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TylerB

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 02:40:25 pm »

...
Have you noticed if the status LED affects the measurements for wide sheets?
...
I wonder if I should even bother communicating this with X-rite.

I haven't taken it as far as you have, and confess the LED issue is something I'm learning now from you, it escaped my notice. My support communications with X-rite have been discouraging, but I have not interacted with any hardware people.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: X-rite iSis roller marks and scuffing, and other observations
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 03:14:22 am »

I noticed that the status LED was glowing brightly inside the measurement chamber only because I was working in near total darkness at that time. I always thought that stray light could prove detrimental to the measurement accuracy. My X-rite i1 Display Pro colorimeter turns off the status LED when it is measuring. My X-rite i1 Pro 2 turns off the status LED when it is measuring. I find it incredibly strange that the iSis does not turn off the status LED during measurments. It is a very bright violet-blue.

My inital support communication with X-rite was disappointing too. Lately I have been able to make good progress with Liane at their Swiss HQ.
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